Big News!! B&LE 643 Moving To A New Home

FINALLY!

Well I'll be.  Never thought I'd see that but it is good news.

Wow, sure didn't see that coming. 

This is interesting and good news! What will be really interesting to watch is how they prep and move the locomotive to its new home. I don't think there is a rail connection any longer where the locomotive currently sits. 

I too am wondering how they will move it. I'm sure they have a plan or they wouldn't have bought it. Good luck and thanks for saving the 643.

Outstanding good news!

Another locomotive saved, and a big one, to boot! Hooray!

Finally, that poor dead horse can rest in peace and no longer take a beating.

i'm sure at many a day ,,this chugged pass my house in curtisville pa,,,its on the main,,,,cant wait to watch it move,,,and I agree,,,,they must have plan already,,as its been said,,,streets to narrow and turney to get it out,,,maybe age has some clout with csx and will put in a temp switch,,,,so happy,,,anybody know where the tender is???

Well. You know, deep down, I always thought that the 643 would escape her ordeal. And I also knew that the Age of Steam Roundhouse would be the best organization to acquire, move, and care for "The King," was Jerry Jacobson once named it. I've read that acquiring this locomotive was a long time dream of his.

Congratulations to the Age of Steam Roundhouse and all other parties involved as well as the many people who have cared for this locomotive. What a fantastic way to honor the 150th anniversary of the Bessemer and Lake Erie Railroad.

https://www.ageofsteamroundhouse.org/

That is FANTASTIC NEWS! And going to a great place too. Would be interesting to see if it was donated or the price was negotiated.

With todays Heavy moving equipment, I surmise it will be trucked out.

Hopefully our fearless leader can shred some light on this... he was in most every thread discussing the scrap value and that it was basically rail locked and worthless.  The owner must have had a change of heart since Rich did the math pretty well on it.  

Perhaps someone ponied up the costs of rigging and shipment?  That schtuff ain't cheap.

Great news! Here's hoping they can get it out of McKees Rocks without leveling half the town. How much do you want to bet that CSX's newly discovered passion for restoration and railfans (the Kentucky 576, the "Heritage" units) allowed the Foundation to make an offer? 

Fantastic News!! One of my favorite railroads!! Its been a long time since I've been to McKees Rocks, and don't know exactly where its sitting. Maybe they can move downriver by rail on flatcars than moving by truck through the "bottoms". It will be a piece of work for sure!! Real happy AOS is getting it!!

Awesome!  Maybe they can do something with the 1309. 

My wager is we will see the boiler removed from the frame, staged and pieces loaded onto TTX flats on the CSX main in an over night frenzy.  Double stack clearances have been a boon to moving steam locomotives on flats.  The new owner has the talent, the know how, the connections and proven professional track records.

Bob

Actually, this locomotive looks better than 4014 tp me

Rule292 posted:

Hopefully our fearless leader can shred some light on this... he was in most every thread discussing the scrap value and that it was basically rail locked and worthless.  The owner must have had a change of heart since Rich did the math pretty well on it.  

Perhaps someone ponied up the costs of rigging and shipment?  That schtuff ain't cheap.

Fearless Leader? LOL! Gee...thanks, but I'm not the "Fearless Leader" any more. I retired! 

As in every case like this, it is PEOPLE that get things done. A solid and friendly connection was recently made by someone at AoSR and 643 owner Glenn Campbell. That connection ultimately bore fruit and now the deal is done. I have no idea what the dollars were in this deal and candidly, that's none of our business anyway.

AoSR is now exploring how best to move the locomotive. They are exploring both rail and truck. It is most likely that it will go out by truck in three pieces, the tender, the boiler and the running gear. No matter how it moves, the take-away from this is that perseverance pays off and this unique (and HUGE!) locomotive will now not be scrapped. It still may not ever run again, but at least it won't be scrapped.

I am eager to see how they make this move--I suspect it will probably happen sooner than later simply because of the desire of the property owners that fomented the original ultimatum.  But there will be a great deal of planning and prep necessary to make it happen.  

I think everyone in previous discussions agreed that this move was not economically justifiable in anything like realistic terms, but some of us suggested it is historically justifiable.  There is almost certainly background here that we don't know and don't need to know, but AoS has a reputation for rational, sound approaches to such things, and they have a great deal of expertise to call on.  

I don't expect to see this engine run again, but it will be very interesting to see how it gets moved.  This move won't have the UP's resources.  643 may not be the star 4014 has become, but she will become a presence just because of the difficulty involved.  That difficulty makes the move more interesting to me than the 4014's.  There is no disparagement of the UP's accomplishment here:  this move will be more dramatic because the UP *isn't* doing it; a private concern without the deep pockets is.  And the engineering will be much more involved.

I will have the popcorn standing by!

I think its too early to say that it will never run again. I am sure steam locomotives are like boats, you dig a hole and pour a whole bunch of money in it.

The first step is getting it to the right place for static restoration... who knows what the future holds … many have said the 4014 would NEVER ride the rails again.

B&LE #643's move came as a nice surprise and no surprise to us at all. The engine now has a guaranteed future home with no sign of scrapping and a slim chance of operation.

How this engine may be moved will likely be a mystery. My own assumption would be CSX offering a hand by re-laying the tracks and transporting it on special flatbeds like they did with C&O 1309. CSX from 10 years ago would not have touched it, but in light of recent events involving a certain Mallet, Kanawha and Dixie it can be safe to things can change. But, it would likely have to be set into three parts as @Rich Melvin described; the frame, boiler & tender.

Another thing I would also guess is that the locomotive has a definite future of steam. Of the many articles I've read on the engine, "It was restored but never ran." That means the engine is in decent shape and was outfitted beforehand. I do get that its been out in the open for many a years but that statement alone proves to me that its possible 643 may actually see steam as it was meant to be that long ago. Maybe it won't be as hefty a restoration because of how prepped the engine already is.

TheRWBYRailfan posted:

... "It was restored but never ran." That means the engine is in decent shape and was outfitted beforehand. I do get that its been out in the open for many a years...Maybe it won't be as hefty a restoration because of how prepped the engine already is.

This engine is not "prepped" at all.

All the work that was done on the 643 years ago pre-dates current CFR Part 230 rules for steam locomotives. Add in a few decades of sitting outside under the pigeons and you've got a tough situation on your hands.

In order for this locomotive to be returned to service, it will have to be in compliance with CFR230. It will have to undergo a complete boiler tear-down and inspection, including removal of all the flues and tubes and measuring the thickness of every square foot of the boiler steel. Depending on their condition, the flues may have to be replaced as well. Also, back when when they did that boiler work, I don't think they did any work on the running gear, which is likely worn out.

Returning this locomotive to service is not an impossible task for AoSR to be sure, but there will be a LOT more work needed here to return her to service than you might think.

Rich Melvin posted:

Returning this locomotive to service is not an impossible task for AoSR to be sure, but there will be a LOT more work needed here to return her to service than you might think.

Besides, any talk about returning the 643 to operation is putting the cart waaaay before the horse.  AoSR will have significant resources tied up in just moving the 643.

Rusty

Rich Melvin posted:

TheRWBYRailfan posted:

... "It was restored but never ran." That means the engine is in decent shape and was outfitted beforehand. I do get that its been out in the open for many a years...Maybe it won't be as hefty a restoration because of how prepped the engine already is.

This engine is not "prepped" at all.

All the work that was done on the 643 years ago pre-dates current CFR Part 230 rules for steam locomotives. Add in a few decades of sitting outside under the pigeons and you've got a tough situation on your hands.

In order for this locomotive to be returned to service, it will have to be in compliance with CFR230. It will have to undergo a complete boiler tear-down and inspection, including removal of all the flues and tubes and measuring the thickness of every square foot of the boiler steel. Depending on their condition, the flues may have to be replaced as well. Also, back when when they did that boiler work, I don't think they did any work on the running gear, which is likely worn out.

Returning this locomotive to service is not an impossible task for AoSR to be sure, but there will be a LOT more work needed here to return her to service than you might think.

Good point, it didn't cross my mind that 1970's restoration guidelines doesn't comply with 2019 restoration guidelines. That is completely true, alongside the whole running gear statement.

Its not...impossible for 643 to return, but with its current condition and the story about its running gear, it'd need a lot of money.

Let's give the AoSR staff the opportunity to get it moved first before we worry about overhauls and operation.

Operating this locomotive will present some huge operating problems. This is the largest non-articulated steam locomotive in the east...maybe in the country. It is HEAVY and has very high axle loadings. It was a drag-era locomotive and her running gear is not balanced for operation at high speeds. I have often joked that this engine has likely not been run faster than 30 mph in its life.

It may not be possible to operate this locomotive due to bridge loading numbers and its overall weight. The B&LE (the 643's home road) was a heavily-built, heavy-haul railroad, built to withstand the weight of these monsters pulling heavy ore trains. Other roads where this locomotive could possibly run may not be so robustly designed.

Let's not forget that AoSR has a lot of other locos that are either having cosmetic restorations being done or are waiting for cosmetic restoration let alone returned to operating condition. Once 643 is safely in the roundhouse it will likely be years before any work is started on her.

AoSR appears to have a well thought out plan to save and display these engines. All it takes is time and money. I doubt they have given 643 much thought other than getting her to Sugarcreek.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Actually, this locomotive looks better than 4014 tp me

Everyone's entitled to their opinion....but that's just silly talk.....IMHO.

I like 643 for the fact that it pulled long coal drags.  I love long coal trains.  Plus it's an east coast loco that I hope to see running one day.

J Daddy posted:

I think its too early to say that it will never run again. I am sure steam locomotives are like boats, you dig a hole and pour a whole bunch of money in it.

The first step is getting it to the right place for static restoration... who knows what the future holds … many have said the 4014 would NEVER ride the rails again.

agreed. But the 4014 has a place to run and Uncle Pete's BIG check book.

When the 1225 Berkshire had issues. Somebody wrote a big check, and the funds appeared when needed.  She was up and running in 22 months. So you just don't know. 

I think T&P/AFT 610 was put into running order in a short period of time.

I'm so excited to see #643 being moved to the Age of Steam Roundhouse... fond memories of seeing her back as a kid in the late 1980s... I hope one day she is fully restored to operating condition - would be awesome to see a B&LE 2-10-4 pulling a 21st century train!

David

wish someone in my family would of had a movie cam back in the day (to broke for that)  of one of these babys draggin a train up the culmerville cut at curtisville crossing  

does anybody know where the bell and headlight are,,,,in the pix from age of steam,,,i don't see the tender,where did it go ??????

Rich Melvin posted:

Let's give the AoSR staff the opportunity to get it moved first before we worry about overhauls and operation.

Operating this locomotive will present some huge operating problems. This is the largest non-articulated steam locomotive in the east...maybe in the country. It is HEAVY and has very high axle loadings. It was a drag-era locomotive and her running gear is not balanced for operation at high speeds. I have often joked that this engine has likely not been run faster than 30 mph in its life.

It may not be possible to operate this locomotive due to bridge loading numbers and its overall weight. The B&LE (the 643's home road) was a heavily-built, heavy-haul railroad, built to withstand the weight of these monsters pulling heavy ore trains. Other roads where this locomotive could possibly run may not be so robustly designed.

Yup, the Bessemer used 155# rail on it's mainline. I believe only the PRR did likewise. Iron Ore is heavy 

Lew

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I think T&P/AFT 610 was put into running order in a short period of time.

That was way back in the days prior to the current FRA mandated 15 year boiler inspection and recertification. 

TheRWBYRailfan posted:

B&LE #643's move came as a nice surprise and no surprise to us at all. The engine now has a guaranteed future home with no sign of scrapping and a slim chance of operation.

How this engine may be moved will likely be a mystery. My own assumption would be CSX offering a hand by re-laying the tracks and transporting it on special flatbeds like they did with C&O 1309. CSX from 10 years ago would not have touched it, but in light of recent events involving a certain Mallet, Kanawha and Dixie it can be safe to things can change.

Don't forget CSX also allowed NKP 765 to travel under her own power on their railroad last year.  Yes, a very short distance on their rails, but that was a big change from prior years.

It will be interesting to see how they get her out of Pittsburgh. Maybe partially disassemble and use side boom Caterpillars to load on flatcars, or trucking?

We'll soon find out.  

I hope History or even better Smithsonian Channel make a documentary of the move.

Steamer posted:

I hope History or even better Smithsonian Channel make a documentary of the move.

I think there are dozens of locomotives better suited for that Documentary.

And letting a fully operational and "road" tested Lima Berk on your tracks is not the same as letting this beast do the same.

Think about this:  if CSX or NS let this massive, heavy locomotive operate on their tracks and a bridge or something else was damaged in some way, do you think they'd let any other (smaller) steam engine run again?

I think this locomotive would make a great static display in Sugarcreek.....and that's about it. 

Live in the Now, celebrate its escape from the scrapper's torch.....but reign in unrealistic expectations.....IMHO.