JohnGaltLine posted:You could run Battery power TMCC if you wanted... Not sure about DCS, as the signal is transmitted through the track power.
Well... yes and no. Most TMCC motor drivers are triac based, and they require AC to function.
This may have already been answered.
Can I use more than one remote (device with the app) to control a single engine at the same time?
This is big plus on a club layout that has multiple operators all controlling the same set of engines as they make their way around.
H1000
JG: Glad you reiterated the separation of battery power from control system technology.
My tests showed an operating range of over 100' with the BlueRail system which uses the newer smart bluetooth. We checked this out and confirmed it at a recent TCA meeting.
gunrunnerjohn posted:JohnGaltLine posted:You could run Battery power TMCC if you wanted... Not sure about DCS, as the signal is transmitted through the track power.
Well... yes and no. Most TMCC motor drivers are triac based, and they require AC to function.
I'm not gonna say it would be drop-dead simple to get TMCC to run on battery power, but it could be done a couple of ways. The simplest thing that comes to mind would be to use a 555 timer and a MOSFET or power transistor to briefly cut power every 1/60 of a second, to allow the Triacs in to cycle off as normal.
Touching on something from earlier in the thread, it would require an overhaul of the design in use, but one could use a system similar to that used in electronic cigarettes to more efficiently produce smoke for battery power. While it would still put a significant draw on the battery, you can get some impressive volumes of "smoke" out of these devices.
A vape "mod" such as the one used in this video runs off of an '18650' type battery, typically 3.6 volts and rated for 3000mAh. set up to produce these massive amounts of "smoke" such a battery will drain fairly quickly, but is the tiny volumes needed for an O scale smoke stack, even this small battery will probably last quite a while.
JGL
JGL, you're basically replacing most of the electronics in the TMCC locomotive. In that case, I guess you could make it work, but it's not a simple thing for most folks to do.
Yes, I'm sure I could make it happen, I just don't have any real incentive to do so.
Not to argue the capabilities being better, but I wasn't aware the present systems were lacking so much there was drastic need for imediate change to get away from well established systems of a similar nature.
Ongoing, only the mfgs like the proprietary systems we have, but the BT doest guarantee open source either. So what's the point?Being universal like DCC is whats needed.
Outside of the tech folks that know it well, blue tooth just another buzz word thrown around for sales purposes. If the old systems aren't taxed to their limits yet, again what's the point?
So you can say "mines better because I used my phone"?
Bah, humbug! 
But ok, Do what you like, but understand why your doing it also. and at this point imo its the ads that push an untapped superiority creating the "need", not a lack of functionality. Riding this bandwagon may be profitable for the OP from this same push, but presently train tech seems pretty adequate as is and one remote replacing another not a game changer, just a brand changer. I'm sure Lionel has plans to jump in too if needed, but so far they havent, so ask yourself why. IMO its because they see no real advantage either. When the sales support it, and the consumer demands it we'll see it.
I'll have to add an AMEN to that. I'm keeping an eye on BlueTooth and battery technology, but today they don't offer what I want in a product. For the same reason I don't own a hybrid or electric powered car, no value added for me. I keep my eye on the technology as at some point I suspect they may be the right choice. When that day comes along, I'll sing a different tune.
FWIW, when the higher current BlueTooth boards come available and I can figure out how to get decent sounds with the package, I plan on building one up, just to get a bit of experience with the technology.
I have been looking for a BPRC system, probably will not be Bluerails although I have not ultimately decided. I do not like local sounds coming out of the controlling device, I want them out of the loco, I do know I could do a bluetooth connected 'sugarcube' speaker but i am concerned about fidelity and connectivity there. I would also like a tactile device for the throttle/controller. They are also not ready for O gauge yet, and I sent them some questions via their contact form several weeks ago and no answer. 
Having the sound come out of your handheld is low class, what does anyone else viewing the layout hear? That's just one of the reasons I also don't feel they're really ready for prime-time. Interesting technology, but not quite yet. 
There is a company that I'll bet will utilize the sound capability of BTin time. If I'm not mistaken they have a stand alone room system that can be controlled by device. If the future data stream contains both signals, and I think it can, that would change the game, but only slightly. It still has to outperform the sounds at hand to call it a big game changing improvement. That recording quality is the "rock" that the present systems are building on already. Which format these great recordings are delivered by, or where they are reproduced near redundant, it's the quality that counts.
Which reminds me of the the 32bit CD/mp3 fiascos the public fell for on so called higher quality sound. They bought some noise reduction, and convenience, at a loss of fidelity from thd original recordings. I kept my analog and bought 64bit if I could. At 64bit you need a super sharp ear to tell. 32 bit is crap with half the reference points, that's why audiophiles still like analog today and vinyl is making a small comeback. But 32b was more profitable so it would have taken the public to "push back", we didn't because we weren't informed enough and wanted to ride the tech bandwagon "oh my CD is better than the old way"...not
I too am interested in any new control methods for our O gauge trains. The more options, the more folks in the hobby, and if it works that way we are all better off with more selection and new products to choose from. I am perfectly happy with my DCS and Legacy systems for now and everything is working really well here with no problems, so I don't plan on switching anytime soon.
However, like GRJ and some of the others have stated, I would certainly be interested in trying out anything new that becomes available such as the Bluerail products and maybe batter power as well. I want to get a DCC system someday as well, just to try out and learn more about it all. Not planning on switching to DCC either, but you never know when something will come along that really gets your attention.
Here's a crappy 3 min video of my Williams E7 with the BlueRail board, battery, and a Gems wifi/bluetooth 2" speaker installed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEd2Y09RAWI
and photos:
Still getting over 2.25 hours of run time, even with the speaker assembly wired into the onboard system (using a 9.6v, 2000Mah NiMh battery). The Gems had a single cell LiPo battery which I removed.
The Gems-type circuit board can be made smaller, there's an on/off switch, 2 jacks, a LED, and microphone, and a volume control "knob" that could be eliminated (and use the Ipad controls). A rectangular speaker would make it possible to install in other locos.
I did have to insert a 5v voltage regulator (8605), which Bob Walker helped me get my head out of that dark place, in order to install it, thanks BobW!!!
Been running BPRC for over 1-1/2 years now.
Attachments
Bob D,
I am guessing the 5V regulator is for the Gems board?
Can you explain what you mean by the Gems board could be made smaller? Is it an off the shelf board?
How do you like the sound compared to other sound systems, if you have them? Proto sound? TMCC included sound?
Do/did you have a different controller to compare/contrast the android/iphone control?
Thanks.
Helmut, yes, the 5v reg is to "protect" the Gens board from the 9.6v battery. I figure since the Gems speaker assembly was being charged by a 5v source, a 5v reg would be the thing to use to get the voltage down to a safe level.
When I say the Gems board could be made smaller, I mean the components necessary for sound would end up having a smaller board than the round one shown. I suspect there's very little in the way of what's needed for the wifi/bluetooth signal.
I've been thinking about installing the Bluerail board in my RailKing NW2, but there's very little room for a 2000 or 2200 Mah battery. A smaller (1000 Mah or even less) battery could be used on this switcher without degrading it's ability to perform it's tasks. I don't need 2+ hours run time on a switcher.
I bought the entire speaker at Target for $5, I haven't been back to see if they have more but I would like to get a couple more if they have them. Hopefully Bluerail will incorporate a wifi/bluetooth speaker as an plug-in accessory in the future.
I think the sounds are as good as the sounds on my ERR boards that I got a couple of years ago, not as good as current Lionels or the sounds coming from my Atlas F3, but I think those use better quality speakers.
The Bluerail system gives me (for diesel) horn, bell, diesel rumble, couplers, brakes (release and squeal), and fans. The bell doesn't die off like the bells in the DCS/PS2 or TMCC systems, but I can live with that. I'm not big on sounds anyway, so what Bluerail is offering is enough for me.
I only have the Ipad for controlling my Bluerail equipped engines (3). My other BPRC engines (10) use the RCS Australia/Deltang systems. I have 3 separate transmitters I can use for these systems, 1 for freight, 1 for passenger, and 1 for switchers. It's very simple to move control from 1 Tx to another, it's called binding.
I still have 4 engines with TMCC and 2 with PS2.
Bob D,
Thx. That install is in an O gauge loco, yes? If so, I thought that the Blue Rails boards were not able to handle the current for O gauge yet?
Helmet, yes, it is an O-scale engine.
Dave Rees at BlueRail said to give it a try and let him know how the 2amp board faired with the higher current motors.
I have had a few times where the board shut down, but Dave and Bob Walker provided enough guidance to adjust some of the internal settings to get things moving. Dave or BobW can explain these settings better than I can.
This is the only engine out of the 3 I have with the BlueRail board installed in that has 2 motors, the other 2 had similar issues, but not as often and even easier to adjust for better running. The higher amp board that is proportedly being worked on will fix these issues.
Thx Bob. Yes I understand it will fix but I was anxious for info and submitted a request and have had no reply - 3-5 weeks later. So I am wondering what that board was and if it was in a O gauge. I am only doing steam, so it might work there as most have only 1 motor. This might be great as an interim solution for a Christmas loco.
What falls out first upon battery drain? Top speed I assume.
What kind of amperage are you pulling through the boards with the two motor unit. Is the board shutting down on a peaked draw like a hard fast start or after continous running builds heat?
Options are great; exclusionary change, not so great
Adriatic posted:What falls out first upon battery drain? Top speed I assume.
What kind of amperage are you pulling through the boards with the two motor unit. Is the board shutting down on a peaked draw like a hard fast start or after continous running builds heat?
The speed stays consistent then the engine slows and stops, every BPRC engine I have seems to get approx 2.5 hours of run time on a charge.
I have no idea about the amperage, have never really measured stall current. Every shutdown experienced happens at startup, trying to start too quickly, train or no train makes no difference. Haven't noticed any heat issues. Adding the sound system into the mix doesn't seem to have affected current draw or run time as of now.
My other BPRC engines (using the RCS/Deltang gear) have been running with no problems, but the Rx65b is rated for 3 amps vice 2 for the Bluerail board.
They were guesses. Its not the shutdowns I anticipated.
It sounds more like a failed link attempt and need for a reboot. Fairly common with initial start up on the non train BT accessories I've used. Not a big deal really if that's it. Off then on again and away you go?
I expected an overdraw shutting it down since amperage seems to be at the heart of worry.
Sound processing uses very little power normally, its the amp/driver circuits that will draw hard. ie The speaker size, ohms, and watts needed for volume.
Bob My install is in an old Atlas F9, its track power however ( DC ), Im quite pleased! Ive also set up a Williams SP GS4, but I believe Im having the same start up issues you mentioned, I was thinking of the Pittman motor as a replacement with ball bearings and rare earth magnets to help with the start up current, I would love to hear what Bob Walker and Dave advised.
I like your speaker set up, this was my thinking too, but I was going to use a buck converter to get my track power down to power the Bluetooth speaker. Ive used them with my Deltang receiver - ESC combos, they work grate. cTr...( Choose the Right )
Stephen,
Sounds like it ought to work. I had an 8605 handy so I used it. I had a bunch of 8606 v/r's but didn't want to push things.
I think we're pushing things with this 2 amp board, but Dave Rees wanted me to see what would happen. I didn't mind being one of his test subjects and it's been fun in the process.
I just "dressed-up" the wiring in the E7, in between 4 phone calls. Had to cut/resolder some wires and with the interruptions wasn't sure if what I had done was going to work or fry the board. Glad to report all went well (except I had to cut out some wall stiffeners inside the shell because I relocated the speaker).
The sound from the Bluetooth speaker is surprisingly loud and good quality.
Stephen, I think gearing would be more of a concern than the type of motor, but if you have a better motor I'd say give it a shot.
One problem - we dont run all of our trains all the time - so I would think keeping them charged and batteries in good condition might be an issue. Hard to just bust one out of the collection and run it if you have to charge the battery.
Roving Sign posted:One problem - we dont run all of our trains all the time - so I would think keeping them charged and batteries in good condition might be an issue. Hard to just bust one out of the collection and run it if you have to charge the battery.
Energizers site says a NiMh battery will lose 20-50% of its capacity in 6 months if not recharged, I don't worry about it. With the number of engines I have there's always a few that are ready to go. If the battery craps out while running, I treat it as if the engine ran out of fuel and send in another to take over. It happens, but it's not worth getting my panties in a twist.
If I feel the need to run a particular engine, I usually know when it was charged last, I even keep a log. The simple thing is to plan ahead.
Big news of the week -
"The other big exciting project BlueRail has been absorbed in is creating the technology for our bluetooth protocol to communicate with DCC and sound decoders. We think this is a worthwhile direction that opens the door to many possibilities. I didn't want to manufacture more boards or products until we built a bluetooth to DCC bridge, and we are on the verge of having that working. I receive many emails about narrower, smaller and higher amperage boards. I felt it wisest to resist the temptation to quickly put out another board until DCC was under our belt. All future boards will benefit from this, and I hope the hobby will as well. I will post more details on YouTube and the facebook page." - David Rees
i did get this email blast a couple days ago. this has possibilities - it is just taking so long. and the requests for info through their site go unanswered (at least in my case it did) which is unfortunate. the largest issue i have with this whole technology is sound through the controlling device - it should come from the locomotive (yeah - i know it can be worked around with a bluetooth speaker device - but that will not fit in all locos). i also cannot find anywhere what/how many sounds are actually available.
this info blast did not also say if it could be added to sound decoders or just control decoders, not how it would work. most wireless addons seem to require require boosters? hopefully that will not be necessary.
hlfritz posted:i did get this email blast a couple days ago. this has possibilities - it is just taking so long. and the requests for info through their site go unanswered (at least in my case it did) which is unfortunate. the largest issue i have with this whole technology is sound through the controlling device - it should come from the locomotive (yeah - i know it can be worked around with a bluetooth speaker device - but that will not fit in all locos). i also cannot find anywhere what/how many sounds are actually available.
this info blast did not also say if it could be added to sound decoders or just control decoders, not how it would work. most wireless addons seem to require require boosters? hopefully that will not be necessary.
Not to call you out, but did you read the email? 
It says - right there in the text - communicate between bluetooth board and sound decoder. Sound decoders are loaded with sounds. They produce those sounds in-loco. Problem solved.
As for contacting David, i emailed him yesterday and got a response less than an hour later. Try responding to the email blast.
JACOBPAUL81,
Thx. for that - the sound decoder part was entirely missed by me. I only recalled DCC. I am aware of how sound decoders work and where the sound comes from in that case - and yes that would resolve one of my largest issues with this stuff. It is great news, I just wish there were timelines. I am pretty ready to start working on my 'stuff', and I need to choose a RC technology pretty much now.
It is also not normal to reply to an email blast and get a response - they usually come from a 'do not reply to this email address', but when you send an email via an information request form on the web site it is normal to get a response.
I do not mind being called out when wrong. I appreciate you calling my attention to what I missed!
" the largest issue i have with this whole technology is sound through the controlling device - it should come from the locomotive (yeah - i know it can be worked around with a bluetooth speaker device - but that will not fit in all locos)"
I dont see fitting it where sounds exist alread being an issue. And if the speaker and amp board dont fit, the sound at the device as an option sure beats nothing. Transmitting to a stand alone system yet another option.
A blue tooth receiver itself can be very tiny. Amplifying takes up more room than processing today. And no matter what you need a control board of some type for ANY system, and then ALSO amplification of the sounds. I dont see an issue where sound exists already.
The DCC option is a smart move in a way, but higher amp boards are needed to do this scale much justice. Get them supporting very high amps and you might even develop some PW conversion fans.
Adriatic posted:A blue tooth receiver itself can be very tiny. Amplifying takes up more room than processing today. And no matter what you need a control board of some type for ANY system, and then ALSO amplification of the sounds. I dont see an issue where sound exists already.The DCC option is a smart move in a way, but higher amp boards are needed to do this scale much justice. Get them supporting very high amps and you might even develop some PW conversion fans.
Connectors...No matter how small the board there's always some kind of wiring that takes place. Diesels aren't so bad but until we get all the electronics buried inside a steam engine boiler we'll have to deal with connectors.
The Deltang-based boards are rated for 3 and 6 amps, hopeful BlueRail will get boards at the same rating soon.
You can control a BlueRail board using the App and a wireless controller like the SteelSeries Nimbus, but I can't find one under $45. Of course I think that it still has to go thru your IOS device.
Bob D,
did you actually hook all that up? it seems the Bluerail board and the Nimbus are redundant as they are both bluetooth receivers? Also, an Android should be able to connect to the Nimbus, it is just the api calls might not be there to do anything with it?
Ribbon cable and connections come in micro variety too. Even less space if you pigtail wire right to a board by solder. Pigtails allow the space a plug would occupy to be moved to a more convenient area too. But regardless, if sound was already there, there should be room to swap the new into place. They fit sounds into ho all day long no issue, the only real difference should be the size of the amplifier section to drive a larger speaker for better/louder sounds.
The amperage used by O, is the only good reason for needing a larger control board than ho. The motor power sections need larger components that have the amp ability , the processing section could be basically the same in all scales.
If they can put command and sound in an N scale, put a blue tooth set the size of a hearing aid in my ear, and make an i-watch, there isnt much excuse for having to say "darn, no room in my O scale". The blame in the large size there, is on the mfgs. Imo. Also with small size comes great frustration in mod and repair, so Im not wishing micro on everything, just small is fine if it fits. Save the micro for just micro-spaces if possible, maybe propriety processing too.
There is usually way more room in a tender, and a loco running without one;, pretty rare. Im curious about the trend of insistance in placing sound boards in the engine now. Factory assembly convenience? Sure there is more room with can motors, but its still very tight compared to the tender. Other than not liking tethers, I cant seem to come up with a good explanation for not using that tender space as we once did. The motor processing in a loco makes sense, but not sound packages being there too. You need the tender for a decent speaker anyhow, and it still seems roomy compared to the boiler to me. Tether wire could be very light with the sound amp in the tender too.
I think Nimbus Steel is an Apple focused product. Ive never been a Mac or i-fan, and thats being nice... and short. But that game controller does have real buttons if I recall, so a good suggestion. And aimed directly at me too! Thank you.
A former tech, Ive seen many cooked board traces and componants alike. So I always go overkill on amp handling now, and 6a might get a single PW motor motor going fine, but a dual pulmor motor would tax its limits. A well run one, more so. Id guess 10a or even 12a might be needed to handle some startup peaks there. I know it was mentioned in a thread (here?) but I dont recall if 6a rating would be the constant or peak max. I have more than one single motor pw engines that run just over 3a and peak around 5.5a during a hard start, so I think the concern for a pw twin motor is still somewhat valid. (but it is getting closer to that high bar it seems. Eg, I was very surprised to learn Dalee had a 12a board. I think that is just an eunit, but still beats the nothing made yesterday, and a pulse width board added to it, is still always possible too. Price? I Didnt look because at 12a, its really the only option outside of a mechanical unit anyhow, and my plans involve "flat" anyhow.
I'm currently running my WbB E7 (with 2 can motors) using the existing BlueRail 2amp board and for the most part it runs fine, like I said earlier, Only problem I sometimes see is at startup. I have no idea what the stall speed is. I think a 3amp board would work.
I use the Deltang-based 3amp board in my Williams brass 4-8-4 and with 4 aluminum cars for a total of 22 pounds. I also pulled all 15 of my passenger cars with it and had no problem. Anything with a DC can motor will probably work, but those older Lionel motors may give problems.
If I was one who had a few shelf queens...this would be a good way to get them back into service.
I received by BlueRail board in the mail yesterday and it was really easy to install and interact with in the app (I have an iPhone). I'm powering it with a 9 volt battery. There wasn't any documentation on their website in using a 9 volt and I wanted to test it out since the 9 volt powers the motor without the board. I may get a lipo, it really depends if a 9 volt meets my needs.
I am very happy with the board and how well it responds to their app. I plan to clean up the wiring and build a shell for the Plymouth later. 
I suspect powering it with a disposable battery will get really expensive in a hurry! 
I agree with GunnerJohn - I would not want to do this with a 9V battery (and in my case not with anything Apple! but to each his own ).
I think you will get far better usage and lifetime with a lipo, even a removable.
Yah, yah...
The 9 volt battery is a test to see how much run time I can get out of it. It is also the same battery I was using before I got the board. The motor in the Plymouth is the size of an HO one and I would not be able to get away with using a 9 volt in a regular locomotive.
Time will tell.
Larry
Larry,
that is a plymouth switcher? K-line type? (sorry - cannot see youtube at work) there is room inside for that board and battery? would you mind taking some pics and posting or sending? i would appreciate it? i have been pondering one of these for quite a while and it always looks like no room in them.
