Boston and Maine Question

I'm pretty sure the Central Vermont (now NECRR) owned White River to Brattleboro, and then southeast to Palmer, MA, while the B&M owned south to Springfield, MA.

Jon

Thanks for the clarification.  I knew there was a twist to it.  There are some blogs on the web showing the progress of the CT River Line upgrade.  Stunning welded rail, new turnouts, new position signals...looking good.  I assume more Amtrak options will be added plus PanAm Southern will run intermodal traffic.  

Amtrak service is suppose to start on Jan 1st, they are already selling tickets.  Not likely there would be any increase in any freight traffic.  PanAm has soured the taste along the line far to long for anyone to trust them.  The few shippers that are left are slowly going away.  Due to environmental wackos the last Coal fired plant on the line in Holyoke more than likely will close in the coming years.  Other than that there's not much.

One huge customer on the line, Yankee Candle gets there wax via CSX to the Pioneer valley railroad to Holyoke where it's steam heated, melted, pumped to trucks for the hour drive to Deerfield.

Well I was thinking new freight traffic...intermodal to Canada...etc    Maybe Yankee Candle will return.    Guilford did have a knack at running business from the rails.  But it looks like NS has had a positive effect on the Hoosac tunnel line....with more to come.

NS is doing a bunch of work on the line...with large track gangs.  I can't imagine they would do that just to help Amtrak...seeking no benefit.  

I bet one day NS will just take control of the major PanAm routes and then use PanAm as a switching contractor...but NS calls the shots.  

Well NS/Pan Am isn't going to own the line for long as the Commonwealth of Mass has agreed to purchase the line with the hopes of using it for commuter trains not just Amtrak.  It's Federal money right now paying for the upgrades.

Station platforms still have to be built in Greenfield, Northampton, Holyoke before trains can stop there, sometime in 2015.  More information can be had on this forum.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=55

Look for the CT River line thread.

As for the Hoosac tunnel, they need to decide soon on how to go about raising the roof.  No double stacks until they do.  CSX has completed their clearance issue with the raising of several road bridges over the past few years on the old B&A.  Saw my first double stack just a few weeks ago.  CSX has a huge advantage over NS/Pan Am Patriot corridor, with increased clearances, welded rail and the new terminal in Worcester

What is the story of the line that continues on past White River JCT up the CT River to St Johnsbury?  Any traffic on it?  I see a signal in St Johnsbury so was this essentially CTC at one time?  Was it part of B&M's CT River line?

I ask this on another forum about rail traffic on the CT line due to your thread Mike.  This is what I got.

Superwarp1 wrote: What's left for freight traffic on the line?  Other than the coal fired Electric plant in Holyoke that could be closed at any time.

Pioneer Valley interchange in Holyoke, several local customers, and lots of potential for new and returning customers.  Especially Yankee Candle, which gave one finger to the air at Guilford back in the bad old days.  Also gets them to Connecticut way, way faster.  Boosts the CSO and CNZR interchanges (especially if the CT River Bridge on the Springfield Line gets upgraded allowing 286K all the way to Hartford Yard), offers up a lot more possibility for generating business on the Highland and Waterbury Branches, and increases their potential presence in Plainville and Waterbury Yards.  It's not necessarily going to be a line jam packed end-to-end or having several-a-day runs, but it brings a whole lot of territory a lot more accessible to East Deerfield to lower their operating costs vs. formerly very time-consuming jobs, and offers up a lot of strategic diversification.  PAR may not have cared much about it in the pre-PAS days, but NS sees a really juicy growth target here.[/quote]

My wife and I rode the Vermonter in 2008, from Springfield to Bellows Falls, and I can attest that the track from Springfield to Brattleboro was no prize at that time - pretty rough.  I tried to time a couple of miles, but there were many missing mileposts, so I used the speedometer on my iPhone to verify my suspicion that we were bouncing along at a sedate 40 MPH.  

I saw the other line across the river, and was not really sure if we were on former B&M or CV rails, so this thread has interested me greatly.

Thanks for the checking with the other forum.  Which forum was that.  I like to follow as many as possible.

I will need to drive back up there when the line is rebuilt.  I think NS also eyes an intermodal route to Canada.

This one.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=55

Mike;

Yes, that is the line that runs up the New York side of Lake Champlain.  Right now I believe that the line sees at least four trains daily -- containers for sure and maybe oil for the Port of Albany.

As I understand it, CSX toyed with the idea of buying the Champlain line or negotiating trackage rights with CP some years back but instead decided to upgrade their St. Lawrence line both in terms of capacity and speed.  That line is now seeing four to six trains daily in each direction.

About the same time NS began a project to upgrade the Mechanicville yard with a container terminal.  Ostensibly, the project was to handle container traffic to/from NE on PanAm and to filet doubles into singles and vice versa.  But some of the traffic is heading north to Canada on CP as well. 

You may have a point about the Connecticut River but I'm not sure what the "traffic driver" would be.  The big sources of NS container traffic in the area are Northern NJ and Boston.

Poppyl

Is that 4 trains each way for the D&H?

What did PamAm do to sour shippers?  Or is it the "toxic effects" of the ownwers of the line s before them?

PamAm (Gilford when all the bad blood happen) was the poster child of bad customer service.  In fact they still are where they are independent of NS. 

Good example is when the Work gang train(with crew accommodation for over night stays) was parked near residents homes in Northampton, Ma.  The noise of the generators and employees at night was keeping residents up at night.  This made the news and even a few politicians got involved about why the work train was parked where it was; All PamAm would say is, if the residents don't like it they should never had purchase a house near the tracks, Really.   Couldn't move the work train a mile South or North?

This is the same response customers have been getting about where their shipment are or when they can get their cars switched, picked up, etc etc. Yankee Candle being the biggest, if they can't get their wax delivered in a timely manner no production so they said screw you PanAm we'll go to CSX, via PVRR, via truck.

As of last month, CP ran four each way between Binghamton and Sunbury plus some locals and two to four depending upon the day between Binghamton, Schenectady, and Montreal.

Poppyl 

So was the CT River line from Springfiled...all the way to White River Junction and even beyond to St Johnsbury...following the CT river all Boston and Maine?  Did CV have rights from White River Jct to Brattleboro?  Then Amtrak seized the line from Guilford?   You can see signals on up to White River Junction and beyond towards St Johnsbury.  If someone could clear this up for me that would be great.  I have searched but can't find the story that somewhat puts together the pieces I set out above.  

Also looks like some B&M was abandoned in Brattleboro.

Good article and map in this Months Trains Mag.  Show you some of what you are asking even though the article is about the Rutland.

B&M owned all the way to Bellows Falls where it would connect with the Rutland heading NW.  CT river line North of Bellow Falls would be Central Vt now NECR(I think). The old B&M line runs over the river into NH.

There are no passenger trains to ST. Johnbury, the Amtrak Vermonter runs on NECR from Palmer, ma, Bellows fall, White river Junction, Montplier Junction, Essex Junction(Burlington), to Saint Albans.

When the CT river line is complete and no longer needs to jog east to Palmer an hour will be shaved off the time even with the extra stops added.

This, also may help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...nd_Maine_Corporation

Ralph

For clarification:  Originally B&M crossed the CV at grade at East Northfield, crossed the river into NH, then crossed back to VT just south of Brattleboro.  Sometime in the 1950's, I believe, defects were discovered on one of the Ct. River bridges.  B&M abandoned that segment and agreed to share trackage with CV between E. Northfield and Brattleboro.  The old B&M ROW and abandoned bridge are still clearly visible south of the Brattleboro station.

You can see B&M searchlight signals near White River JCT and north to St Johnsbury.  If only I could find it but there was an article stating that B&M once owned all the way to White River Junction and beyond to Wells River VT.  At some point they unloaded the part north of Bellows Falls.  B&M also came from Concord NH to White River Jct.

Looking at a map I see clear ownership of B&M up to Windsor...then perhaps trackage rights to White River Jct...then B&M again to Wells River.

And then Amtrak seized the part south of Bellows Falls.  

And then Amtrak seized the part south of Bellows Falls. 

You keep mentioning this.  Amtrak doesn't own anything in central or northern New England, never had.   Not sure who owns south of Bellow Falls but Deerfield south to Springfield the state of Mass will take ownership in Dec from Pan Am/Southern

They seized it and then sold to NECRR or CV at the time.  It was I think one of the only times in history Amtrak has seized a route it utilizes.  I think B&M owned to Windsor..then rights to WRJ...then B&M again to Wells River.

The case is: National Railroad Passenger Corporation v. Boston & Maine Corp., 503 U.S. 407 (1992)

I am looking forward to seeing the rebuilt CT river line.

Also, puzzling...see attached pic of Windsor VT.  Apparently CTC is still active...why install a fairly new signal mast?  The NECRR isn't CTC north of WRJ nor south of East Northfield.  And I guess the CT River line south into Mass still had active CTC even with 10MPH 1 train per week.    I hope someone can clear this all up.  Is that signal under control of the St Albans NECRR dispatcher???

Mike is that you asking this very same question on Railroad.net? You should be able to get your answers there.  I know NECRR has be infused with Federal stimulus funds over the years to upgrade the tracks all the way to St. Albans.  Don't know if CTC was part of it or already there.  CTC is going in on the CT river line as shown where your post the question.  Pan Am/Southern will retain dispatching and maintenance along with freight hauling rights. 

http://www.railroad.net/forums...76506&start=1065

Yes that's me.  I hope to get an answer.  It was explained in the past but I just can't find the post. 

The signal I attached the pic of in Windsor was there in 2000 when I was up that way...but it was an old B&M searchlight back then.