Brass vs Diecast vs Plastic

Cody  have you ever worked on scale models?    Or just toy trains?

@Dave Koehler posted:

Cody  have you ever worked on scale models?    Or just toy trains?

i have never had an experience with scale trains because of the cost and space requirements but i'm hoping one day that will change.

i have always admired the scale stuff especially the old brass engines from the 80s and 90s

even thought of dabbling in two rail because i heard a company called precision scale or something made a SP DD35 in the 80s and someone i think made an SP SDP45 in the same decade  among some other pieces that interested me but they were 2 rail only. i found them listed in the brass guide on brass trains.com

i can't find any photos though

it just goes to show that my dreams are too big and i don't know why i have an obsession with brass stuff

First of all, there is a BIG deference  between  Brass scale and Hi rail !   Two totally deferent track systems couplers ect.  (one will not run easily on the other ) I have both scale and Hi rail , Brass ,Die cast and  Plastic all with scale couplers am working on running them on battery power and radio control on the same track ! but thats another story.   Before you jump into scale brass O scale,  start out a loop of scale 2 rail atlas track, a few scale cars , and a smaller plastic diesel of some sort . learn how, to disassemble it,  lube it, and reassemble it, before you make the jump into brass .  Take a look around you , there are hundreds of  videos  on scale layouts , High Rail and toy ! Your dream lay out can have a loop of each !

l believe the o.p. is talking about 3 rail scale trains rather than 2 rail scale trains. The clue is brass scale engines from the 1980"s to the 1990's and that was the period of time that 3 rail scale locomotives exploded onto the scene.

I'm going through my diecast phase at the current moment.  From the Lionel Veranda Turbine to CAT construction equipment.  Some of the diecast items are extremely heavy.  The Atlas Gunderson Maxi-IV's are just to heavy.  They should have tried to make the dies so that the interiors would be hollow in places.  The Veranda requires some hefty amperage to get it going.  As for detail, "plastic" seems to produce the best depth and quality.  The problem is, I don't see great finishes on some of the ABS products....esp. from MTH.  They have that dull, matte appearance.  A semigloss coating would easily rectify this issue.  Compare this to diecast, where there is an actual paint coat.

Anthony

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

l believe the o.p. is talking about 3 rail scale trains rather than 2 rail scale trains. The clue is brass scale engines from the 1980"s to the 1990's and that was the period of time that 3 rail scale locomotives exploded onto the scene.

i did mention 2 rail but i am going to more than likely switch to hi-rail o scale which is 3 rail o scale but keeping the lobster claws

i do want to know what a brass 3 rail engine is like. what would holding a right of way engine be like? are they extremely heavy? but lighter than diecast?

do they have deteriation problems like diecast can have with zinc pest? etc

Cody,  Have you looked at the Pecos River Brass (PRB) 4-6-4?  Quite detailed, plenty of power if you keep the traction tires, and it is reliable.  John in Lansing, ILL

@paigetrain posted:

i did mention 2 rail but i am going to more than likely switch to hi-rail o scale which is 3 rail o scale but keeping the lobster claws

i do want to know what a brass 3 rail engine is like. what would holding a right of way engine be like? a

Cody,  The ABA R-O-W set is fabulous.  Simply the best made at the time.  One of my many regrets in life is not buying Sam's D&H set when it was available.  John

Well Die cast is heavier  , but it is also possible to get too heavy , wear and tear on gears and wheels . As far zinc rot / pest, back in the 30's to 50's it was mostly caused by bad , today its caused by mostly dirty metal and recasting the same metal too often. like the crap from China ,   As far as Brass Models  they are assembled out of lost wax castings and formed and fabricated brass sheet and wire, and are heavy enough and quite strong if care is taken.  As far as couplers go , to each his own, you couldnt pay me enough , to use the toy couplers , I have pulled 100 car trains using 2 Overland SD40's using Kadee couplers with out one failing!

Rattler21 , Nice looking !

Every time I see a 2-rail O-Guage layout I want to change my layout.

I don't because that third rail makes running much easier.  Also, I see a closer level of detail with 2-rail trains in todays Lionel, MTH, Atlas and Sunset engines and cars than those LNL trains produced in the 40s - 90s.

My justification for remaining in 3-rail? YES!

And when you say "plastic"   include 3D printed Resin or 3DTube printed engines and cars.

@paigetrain posted:

i do want to know what a brass 3 rail engine is like. what would holding a right of way engine be like? are they extremely heavy? but lighter than diecast?

do they have deteriation problems like diecast can have with zinc pest? etc

Brass is not as heavy as die cast, especially when comparing steam engines such as my 3rd rail PRR J1 to a Lionel PRR J1. Brass does not suffer from any "rotting from within" as Die Cast does with zinc rot. One can repair a damaged bodied brass engine much easier than a die cast engine.

Simply put. If money is tight but you have choice of the same engine with similar features in brass or die cast, the brass loco is the better buy for the long term.

@A. Wells posted:

The problem is, I don't see great finishes on some of the ABS products....esp. from MTH.  They have that dull, matte appearance.  A semigloss coating would easily rectify this issue.  Compare this to diecast, where there is an actual paint coat.

Anthony

My Premier ATSF DL109s I got last year seem plenty shiny.

@Lou1985 posted:

My Premier ATSF DL109s I got last year seem plenty shiny.

That is correct for those particular Sante Fe's.  I'm trying to remember if that is plastic with metallic foil or metal paint.  It's described in the catalog.  Someone help me out here.  The paint is a special gloss as well.  You'll notice the front plastic drape (or whatever you guys call it) has that dull sheen.

Anthony

@A. Wells posted:

That is correct for those particular Sante Fe's.  I'm trying to remember if that is plastic with metallic foil or metal paint.  It's described in the catalog.  Someone help me out here.  The paint is a special gloss as well.  You'll notice the front plastic drape (or whatever you guys call it) has that dull sheen.

Anthony

It's plastic with a metalized coating on the sides to simulate stainless, which the real locomotive had. The red and black on the nose is glossy as well.

I find the sheen on most MTH and Lionel stuff to be fine. It's really shouldn't be all that glossy. The old lacquer paint used on these locomotives and rolling stock faded to a matt or flat sheen very quickly after it was exposed to the elements.

You want heavy:

A little over thirteen pounds. Cast bronze so no zinc pest.

On the point of brass vs. diecast on steam locomotives I prefer diecast. The usual argument is that brass has fragile details, which is true to an extent but not the issue for me. The issue I have is the mechanism. Modern scale Lionel and MTH steam locomotives have a pretty bullet proof driveline. You can basically take one out of the box, lube it, and stick it on the head of 7 or 8 passenger cars and let it rip and 70mph for hours on end without a hiccup. Just lube it every 20 or so hours and keep on trucking. I've never seen a 3rd Rail or other brass scale steam locomotive be able to be operated like that without tweaking it every few hours of run time, if you're lucky.

@Lou1985 posted:

It's plastic with a metalized coating on the sides to simulate stainless, which the real locomotive had. The red and black on the nose is glossy as well.

I find the sheen on most MTH and Lionel stuff to be fine. It's really shouldn't be all that glossy. The old lacquer paint used on these locomotives and rolling stock faded to a matt or flat sheen very quickly after it was exposed to the elements.

I believe the defining point for me in making that comment regarding the "sheen" came from seeing and acquiring a very few (like one) of the Lionel UP Heritage SD70ACE locomotives.  I'm particularly fond of that look on an engine.  It looks like a real newly painted image.

Anthony

@Lou1985 posted:

On the point of brass vs. diecast on steam locomotives I prefer diecast. The usual argument is that brass has fragile details, which is true to an extent but not the issue for me. The issue I have is the mechanism. Modern scale Lionel and MTH steam locomotives have a pretty bullet proof driveline. You can basically take one out of the box, lube it, and stick it on the head of 7 or 8 passenger cars and let it rip and 70mph for hours on end without a hiccup. Just lube it every 20 or so hours and keep on trucking. I've never seen a 3rd Rail or other brass scale steam locomotive be able to be operated like that without tweaking it every few hours of run time, if you're lucky.

Oddly  enough,  My brass  preforms the same, no issues.

@A. Wells posted:

I believe the defining point for me in making that comment regarding the "sheen" came from seeing and acquiring a very few (like one) of the Lionel UP Heritage SD70ACE locomotives.  I'm particularly fond of that look on an engine.  It looks like a real newly painted image.

Anthony

The real ones, are Painted in Gloss not a flat finish .   Thats what  weathering a model does.  It drives me crazy when it painted flat!

@Lou1985 posted:

My Premier ATSF DL109s I got last year seem plenty shiny.

Beautiful, and Im not a big SF fan

@Dave Koehler posted:

Oddly  enough,  My brass  preforms the same, no issues.

I bought a 3rd Rail steam locomotive recently, so I'm gonna see what I can make it do.

I've run other people's brass stuff and they don't take very kindly to running 3+ hours at high speed. Something goofy always seems to happen at the end of a session. Rod bolt loosens up, linkage gets a little wonky and needs adjusting, etc. I never have to touch anything on a diecast scale Lionel or MTH steam locomotive. Just grease and oil and away it goes.