BRC for MTH PS1 Amtrak Genesis

Probably not a battery issue.  Some PS1 engines were incompatible with transformers having a chopped sine wave output (including some of MTH's own power supplies).  Since yours worked OK with  a Z-4000, I think that is the problem and a BCR won't correct that. 

Also you want the j and w bcr.

My P1 Genesis runs fine on both Z1000 and Z4000, BCR added years ago, this loco has a million miles on it and keeps going strong!

The single clank is the whistle being blown in neutral with the track voltage set high, that's arming the coupler.  The next whistle activation opens the coupler.

Note that the Z1000 frequently imparts a DC bias on the track and so it looks like you're tooting the whistle when you're not, that could cause the issue you see.

If it runs properly with the Z4000, it's not the locomotive, it's the transformer.

Thanks Guys, I will try the J and W BRC, and just see how it goes.

I just ordered the BRC, and should have it in a week or so.

I am also going to see about a different transformer.
I knew that my CW-80 was not good to use with the MTH locos, but I had no earthly idea that the Z-1000 put out a similar chopped sigh wave.
Very disappointing indeed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The single clank is the whistle being blown in neutral with the track voltage set high, that's arming the coupler.  The next whistle activation opens the coupler.

Note that the Z1000 frequently imparts a DC bias on the track and so it looks like you're tooting the whistle when you're not, that could cause the issue you see.

If it runs properly with the Z4000, it's not the locomotive, it's the transformer.

Thanks GR,

I bought the Z-1000 under the assumption that it would be a much better choice than the CW-80, being MTH's own transformer and all.
How disappointing to find that it suffers from very similar weaknesses.

Anyway, if you remember, I bought your ZW-C awhile back, and that will run one of me three tracks, and the Z-1000 was to run the other, but now it looks like I need a different transformer, and I don't want to buy another ZW, so can you recommend another single transformer that puts out good clean power, that won't break the bank?

Thanks again

If you're running conventional mode, consider something like one of the post-war Lionel transformers, they're all pure sine wave outputs.  I favor the KW or the ZW, and you want to look for a refurbished unit from a reputable seller.  If you get one of those, it should give you many years of service.

The only extra I would add is a decent modern circuit breaker between the transformer and the track as well as a TVS protection diode to damp out electrical spikes.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you're running conventional mode, consider something like one of the post-war Lionel transformers, they're all pure sine wave outputs.  I favor the KW or the ZW, and you want to look for a refurbished unit from a reputable seller.  If you get one of those, it should give you many years of service.

The only extra I would add is a decent modern circuit breaker between the transformer and the track as well as a TVS protection diode to damp out electrical spikes.

I have one MTH BNSF SD70 taht I run with the Remote Commander, and I see others in the future as well, so I am not running all conventional.
I also have two Lion Chief locos as well.

No change for command operation, still need the circuit breaker and the TVS.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

No change for command operation, still need the circuit breaker and the TVS.

Now I am totally confused:

I have been given to understand that the chopped sine wave transformers are bad for the newer locomotives, especially the MTH with delicate circuitry in them.

I just watched the Lionel YouTube video "Chopped vs Smooth Sine Wave".

He seems to be saying that you get the best performance from the Chopped Sign Wave transformers because of the 18 volt peak voltage that is powering the capacitors.

I have been given to understand that the chopped sign wave transformers, such as the CW-80, are bad for the modern locomotives, especially the MTH PS locos.

I bought the ZW-C thinking that it was a smooth sign wave transformer, but now find that it puts out a chopped sign wave. The bricks put out a smooth sign wave, but the actual ZW takes that and puts out a chopped sign wave. Further, he seems to say that this is truly what you want, in order to get optimal performance from your modern locomotives.

He also confirmed that the MTH Z-500, Z-750, Z-1000 all put out a chopped sign wave.

What is the truth on this subject with regard to modern Lionel and MTH locomotives?
I thought that I knew, but now have no clue.

First off, when you run full throttle like with command operation, the waveform is not chopped, it's pretty much a full sinewave.  It's only when you run conventional at lower settings that there is a potential boost in smoke performance.

FWIW, I run strictly command with 18V bricks with a pure sine wave, I have zero issues with generating clouds of smoke. 

IMO, the chopped waveform does more harm than good.

Can I gather that the Z1000 brick (40-1000A) generates a pure wave, and that the controller from the set (40-1000) is what chops it to regulate the voltage?

Anyone using the MRC AH-601 for conventional?

Steven Bullock posted:

Can I gather that the Z1000 brick (40-1000A) generates a pure wave, and that the controller from the set (40-1000) is what chops it to regulate the voltage?

Anyone using the MRC AH-601 for conventional?

I am not sure abut the Z-1000, other than that it puts out a chopped sign wave, but the Lionel customer services rep that does all of those videos, stated that this is the case with the ZW-C. The 180 watt bricks put out a pure sign wave, but the transformer changes it into a chopped sighnwave.

BTW, when I bring the power up just enough for the PS-1 loco to enter startup, and then let it sit until the startup sounds are completed, it will run, but has very little power, when hooked up to the my four Super Liner cars. It will get all the way around my loop, but never builds up much speed, even with the controller all the way up to full power, and almost stops on the far side.

All of my other Conventional, Lion Chief, and PS-3 locos build up good speed, with long consists behind them, and maintain good speed around the entire loop.

This is a temporary 5 x 9 loop with only one power connection

Steven Bullock posted:

Can I gather that the Z1000 brick (40-1000A) generates a pure wave, and that the controller from the set (40-1000) is what chops it to regulate the voltage?

Anyone using the MRC AH-601 for conventional?

Yes, the Z1000 brick is a plain 100W transformer.  The controller is what varies the output power an hacks up the waveform.  The MRC AH-601 is also a pure sine wave transformer.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Steven Bullock posted:

Can I gather that the Z1000 brick (40-1000A) generates a pure wave, and that the controller from the set (40-1000) is what chops it to regulate the voltage?

Anyone using the MRC AH-601 for conventional?

Yes, the Z1000 brick is a plain 100W transformer.  The controller is what varies the output power an hacks up the waveform.  The MRC AH-601 is also a pure sine wave transformer.

Yes, the Lionel guy on the YouTube videos said that all MRC transformers are pure sign wave transformers.

GTW GR, would this be a good KW to pick up?
Sounds like a lot of new parts.

https://www.ebay.com/i/273742081804?chn=ps

Only the Pure Power MRC transformers are pure sine wave, the electronic controls on the others are chopped wave.

If I were spending that much on the KW, I'd want it to come from one from a reputable rebuilder. 

Here's one for $80 + shipping from a guy that I trust.  He has several KW's for sale, as well as some ZW's.  He does a full rebuild that should give you years of service.

http://www.tranz4mr.com/O_For_Sale.html#8

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Only the Pure Power MRC transformers are pure sine wave, the electronic controls on the others are chopped wave.

If I were spending that much on the KW, I'd want it to come from one from a reputable rebuilder. 

Here's one for $80 + shipping from a guy that I trust.  He has several KW's for sale, as well as some ZW's.  He does a full rebuild that should give you years of service.

http://www.tranz4mr.com/O_For_Sale.html#8

Thanks for the link GR,

The one for $80 says "Layered Core".
He also has two for $90 that don't mention this item.
What does this mean, and would the two for $90 be better?

Also, is there any risk, when following your advice on circuit breakers and such, of harming MTH PS-1, 2, 3 locomotives with the KW transformer?

I did some reading and have found that the KW has been considered the second most popular version, being the Buick to the ZW being the Cadillac.

I would always consider a modern circuit breaker on any PW transformer.  The breaker in PW transformers were there to protect the transformers, not the load.  The Layered core is the older style, it doesn't affect the capacity, but you may get a bit more hum from the transformer than the later solid core models.

Thanks again GR,

If I go that rout, I may go with one of the two solid core versions.
As I mentioned, your guy has two of them for $90.

Again, my question wasn't if I should use a breaker.

Rather, it was that given the proper and such as you detailed a ways above, will the KW, in and of itself, have any risk of adverse effect on the MTH PS-1,2,3 locos?

A TVS protection diode is always a good idea.  The KW isn't any more dangerous to your trains than any other AC power source, that is providing you have proper circuit protection.  It's just the breaker on PW transformers is very slow, and I prefer something a bit quicker acting.

RWL posted:

I just purchased an MTH Amtrak Geneses locomotive (Phase 3) with PS-1, and it wouldn't run at all. It would idle and light up, but not move. I took it to my LHS and had him do a reset, and it ran fine there with his Z-4000.

When I got it home, and powered it up with my Z-1000 I had issues. It ran, but when I put cars on it it would barely go, so it is exhibiting very erratic behavior.

I have been reading the posts here about the single clank issue, and that is what I am getting when I attempt to make it go forward.
Is this a battery issue, and if so can the BRC still be had for these?

This loco has the 9V green wraped battery.

I found this battery substitute at Dalee Electronics, and am curious to know if it is this what I need to replace the battery?
https://www.dallee.com/Battery...H-3-volt-systems-573

Or would this one from J and W Electronics be better?
https://www.jandwelectronics.com/bcr

Meanwhile, how do I fully charge the battery that is there now?

Thanks for any and all ideas on this.

 

I used both of those Bcr's and honestly I rather have the jandw unit because it works. The Dalee units seem to be hit or miss for the unit to work out of the box. That's been my experience.

If it hasn’t already been mentioned, you can enter the product # on mth’s website and get the manual. It will give u a list of compatible transformers(not that it’s always 100% correct- just like with other manufacturers).

I have a 1999 Protosound Amtrak AEM-7, the Z-4000 is the only MTH transformer listed as compatible.

From everything that I have been reading, in many different places, I am kind of wishing that I had held out for a Z-4000 rather than the ZW-c that I bought.

Hello RWL,

In our opinion, it is difficult to beat the MTH Z-4000 transformer, especially when using the old Proto-Sound 1 technology locomotives.  As you witnessed I did a basic factory "reset 18" on your Amtrak Genesis very easily using the Z-4000 transformer on our in-store layout.  Granted many people don't need that big and powerful of a transformer on small layouts, but they do offer the room for expansion as we all know is a good thing.  The easy programming for Proto-Sound 1 locomotives is a real bonus too.

JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:

Hello RWL,

In our opinion, it is difficult to beat the MTH Z-4000 transformer, especially when using the old Proto-Sound 1 technology locomotives.  As you witnessed I did a basic factory "reset 18" on your Amtrak Genesis very easily using the Z-4000 transformer on our in-store layout.  Granted many people don't need that big and powerful of a transformer on small layouts, but they do offer the room for expansion as we all know is a good thing.  The easy programming for Proto-Sound 1 locomotives is a real bonus too.

Nice to hear from you JR- J

I tend to agree with you, and am leaning toward selling my ZW-C and Z-1000 and splurging for the Z-4000 for my inner and outer loops, and something else to power my yard. Maybe an MRC, just not sure on that little detail. The yard will be the last of the three tracks to be built.

Not only were you able to reset the PS-1 loco, but it seemed to run just fine on your Z-4000 powered layout.

I am going to answer your first post.  What year is this, if 97 and up it can run on a ZW-C.  I run all mine on it.  The issue of not pulling cars and erratic behavior is the engine itself.  Are the wheels clean, are the pickups clean and lubricated.  Has the engine been lubricated, and grease checked.  Are the tires on the engine and in good shape.  This is a 20 plus year old engine.  It needs full servicing.  PS-1 engines are great pullers.

Just some idiocrasies in operation.  All covered in the instruction manual.  Good battery or BCR and follow the start up procedure.

GGG posted:

I am going to answer your first post.  What year is this, if 97 and up it can run on a ZW-C.  I run all mine on it.  The issue of not pulling cars and erratic behavior is the engine itself.  Are the wheels clean, are the pickups clean and lubricated.  Has the engine been lubricated, and grease checked.  Are the tires on the engine and in good shape.  This is a 20 plus year old engine.  It needs full servicing.  PS-1 engines are great pullers.

Just some idiocrasies in operation.  All covered in the instruction manual.  Good battery or BCR and follow the start up procedure.

Thank you for your comments.

I have not looked up the engine number on the MTH website just yet.
Update, It is Cab No 805, and I found the manual.

Question: The transformer list contains the Lionel ZW and KW, so does ZW in clude ZW-C?

It is as follows:
Amtrak Genesis
Phase III paint
Green 9 Volt Rechargeable Battery

I have replaced the battery with a J & W BRC, with no improvement.

After replacing the battery with the BCR, I started it up, let it set and charge for a couple of minutes, then attempted to run it a couple of times, then after a few tries, I got the single clank.
At this point, I am thinking that it may need to be reset again, which I will have my LHS do, as he is only about a 10 minute drive from where I work.
Then I will hook up the ZW-C and try it with that, rather than the Z-1000.

I have another one being shipped, that was purchased, new, from his LHS in 1999, as the set with the 4 super liner cars, and never removed from the box.
Any thoughts on that one?

I was assured by J & W rep. that it would also have the 9 Volt battery, so I have another BCR to put in it as well.

Voltage must be below 10V to come out of reset at first power up after shutdown greater than 3-5sec.  Lower throttle to about 1/4 and try.  G

Thanks,
Will do.
BTW, I found the user's manual on the MTH website, and downloaded it.
So I will be studying that as well.

Thanks again,
Roger

GGG posted:

Voltage must be below 10V to come out of reset at first power up after shutdown greater than 3-5sec.  Lower throttle to about 1/4 and try.  G

This is really strange.
I put my volt meter, set on AC, on the two terminals coming out of my Z-1000, going to the track, and with the knob all the way off, it reads 23 volts and change AC.
The brick states 24 volts at 3.75 amps, and at the barrel connector of the brick I read 25 volts AC.

Reading like this, in the off position a conventional loco should take right off when power is sent to this controller. 

However, when I put on a conventional loco on the track, it works as it should.
Nothing with knob off, and runs as it should when I turn the knob/voltage up.

What am I missing here?
Obviously something pretty major.

With no load on the transformer you'll get wonky voltage readings out of a lot of electronic transformers.  Put a load on it, even a light bulb, and you'll get more accurate readings.

Wow, that was quick!

Thanks GRJ

Will do.

I happen to be at the computer.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

With no load on the transformer you'll get wonky voltage readings out of a lot of electronic transformers.  Put a load on it, even a light bulb, and you'll get more accurate readings.

I wired up a light bulb across the output leads of the Z-1000, then I was able to get about 0.2 vac at Full Off, and 11.5 ish vac at Full On.

I also cleaned the locomotives wheels and pick up rollers with alcohol, then tried it out, and it seems to work much better. It cycles between Forward, Neutral, and Reverse OK, and empty it really goes. When I put the 4 super liner cars on it it runs much more slowly, and the voltage at the Z-1000 outputs drops to around 7-8 vac.

I then took two cars off and left it pulling only the two remaining Super Liner cars, and it went faster, and the voltage at the transformer outputs dropped to approx 6 vac.

I hooked up my little Pennsylvania Flyer (6 wheel) locomotive, and it pulls with very good speed, and the voltage at the transformer outputs was 10.7 ish.

You clearly have a voltage drop in your wiring or your transformer is dying.  The Genesis PS/1 with a handful of those cars should run fine with the Z-1000.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You clearly have a voltage drop in your wiring or your transformer is dying.  The Genesis PS/1 with a handful of those cars should run fine with the Z-1000.

But that little Lionel Lion Chief Penn Flyer pulls them fin with almost no voltage drop.

Seems to be something about the PS-1 loco that is off.

Well, the little Penn Flyer probably uses a fraction of the power the dual-motored Genesis does.  However, the Z-1000 at 100 watts is easily capable of running the Genesis and eight or ten passenger cars, even with incandescent lighting.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the little Penn Flyer probably uses a fraction of the power the dual-motored Genesis does.  However, the Z-1000 at 100 watts is easily capable of running the Genesis and eight or ten passenger cars, even with incandescent lighting.

So then; What am I looking at? A bad Loco or a suspect transformer?

BTW, I am going to pick up that layered KW from your friend. He is out of town this week, but when he gets back we will make the deal.

I am very interested to see how it performs with this loco.

My top suspect is wiring, a high resistance joint somewhere that's dropping voltage as more current flows.  It should be fairly easy to track that down, with the train running and the voltage being dragged down, something's getting hot somewhere.