"bubble tube" discussion

It is nasty stuff, and will evaporate instantaneously when the tube broken.

Jon

It occured to me to try a Google search and I got this:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/72-4112-250.pdf

The bubble tube contains methylene chloride. Should the tube break, take care to avoid inhaling or ingesting fumes or liquid. Harmful if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin. If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Remove to fresh air. In case of contact with skin or eyes, wash contact area with water for at least 15 minutes. Call a physician immediately. Keep out of the reach of children. In its enclosed state, this liquid poses no risk.

Surprisingly, Lionel still used this "bubble tube" feature in more recent years.

Wondering: has anyone had one of these break during normal use? Like if the lamp was hotter than it should be?

I had the American Flyer water tower tube (same tube, but much bigger) not be perfectly sealed, and it slowly evaporated. I also broke a 455 bubble tube in the derrick. No damage, though I have heard it can be dangerous.

It can't be that dangerous, they are still available in Christmas light sets.  Probably just good legal warning for those wanting to file more lawsuits.  But now that I think about it, Lionel trains are supposed to be dangerous and they have a warning label on them that is either 8 years old or 14 I can't remember.

As for Lionel trains, exposure is not hazardous, just slightly addictive.

As Aussteve and Grampstrains said, still available for Christmas lights. I just got some this past year for a 1950s-themed tree. 

If the tube has crystals at the bottom, the liquid is separating. A good shake should take care of that.

I've read the darker colors stain pretty badly, unsure if the orange/yellow of the oil well would.

Hey guys, Thanks for the comments. I had wondered if the American Flyer water tower used the same stuff. And I noticed crystals in my tube of fluid; thought maybe it was an inert substance that helped trigger the "boiling". When the light is turned off, it continues to bubble for 10 - 20 seconds.

It's a little scary after reading the safety cautions. If you have these gadgets on your layout you should probably have a complete HazMat response train on standby.

The background on Methylene chloride is somewhat interesting if you're interested in chemistry. Dichloromethane (DCM, or methylene chloride) has some other applications:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichloromethane

Jerry

aussteve posted:

It can't be that dangerous, they are still available in Christmas light sets.  Probably just good legal warning for those wanting to file more lawsuits. 

Quite the opposite. It's to avoid lawsuits. More than that, warnings of potential hazards in household items like this are required by law. Over the years, these sorts of warning labels have saved tens of thousands of lives.

If, as you claim, it can't be that dangerous, you should test it. Drink some, and then report back. 

Menards had the replacement bubble lights last xmas. Multiple colors. I think sets of 2 for $4.95, I got several for an old Noma set I still have. Likely (I hope) will have them again. They went fast.

They are perfectly safe as long as they don't get broken !  Best used in a situation that avoids handling or movement, and with protection from accidental bumping or collision etc.

When I worked at Kodak years ago methylene chloride was everywhere, it was part of the process of manufacturing film base. To put it in perspective, they recovered most of what they used, but they still lost hundreds of tons per year. One year they were proud of themselves because they reduced emissions by 480,000 pounds per year. I recall another time, a pipe broke and 30,000 gallons spilled. Aside from process work, because it was so available, it was used as a general purpose degreaser and solvent especially in the tool rooms and machine shops.  Short exposure to it is generally not an issue, but prolonged exposure over years or decades can be problematic. Personally, I have no concern about using it occasionally, just avoid unnecessary skin contact and work with good ventilation. A broken bubble tube to me is a non-event, soak it up, put the rags outside and move on. There are many hazards we deal with daily that are worse than bubble tubes! Read the label on a can of spray paint or contact cement!

 

The methylene chloride ran on the track and began to dissolve the plastic roadbed .

 

Methylene chloride is a solvent used to strip paints and it will dissolve most plastics, it however isn't a corrosive that would do the same to your skin, that being said you still wouldn't want to make a habit out of getting it on bare skin.

From wikipedia...

"DCM's volatility and ability to dissolve a wide range of organic compounds makes it a useful solvent for many chemical processes.^[10]

It is widely used as a paint stripper and a degreaser.^[13] In the food industry, it has been used to decaffeinate coffeeand tea as well as to prepare extracts of hops and other flavorings.^[14] Its volatility has led to its use as an aerosol spray propellant and as a blowing agent for polyurethane foams.

DCM is the least toxic of the simple chlorohydrocarbons, but it is not without health risks, as its high volatility makes it an acute inhalation hazard.^[16][17] It can also be absorbed through the skin.^[1][13]

Symptoms of acute overexposure to dichloromethane via inhalation include difficulty concentrating, dizziness, fatigue,nausea, headaches, numbness, weakness, and irritation of the upper respiratory tract and eyes. More severe consequences can include suffocation, loss of consciousness, coma, and death.^[13][1]

DCM is also metabolized by the body to carbon monoxide potentially leading to carbon monoxide poisoning.^[18] Acute exposure by inhalation has resulted in optic neuropathy^[19] and hepatitis.^[20] Prolonged skin contact can result in DCM dissolving some of the fatty tissues in skin, resulting in skin irritation or chemical burns.^[21]"

Jerry

At one time, Methylene chloride was also used as a refrigerant with centrifugal compressors. I used to operate an air conditioning system with a centrifugal compressor in a late 1920's theater. It was quite a piece of machinery.

If any of the chemical got on your skin, it burned!. It was good for cleaning metal tools, but would melt the plastic handles of screwdrivers. (We had drums of it for the compressor).

Apparently if you spilled on the ground, it would poison the earth so nothing would grow. The old engineer who taught me how to operate the air conditioner told me that.

I remember my wife and I using methylene chloride based paint strippers in the 1980's or maybe 1990's. The last time the subject came up here, I looked to see whether Lowes still carried any. I didn't see any.

I notice my bubble tube has what appears to be sand crystals settled in the fluid, which I suspect are to help trigger a steady "boiling" process. I don't think it's crystal meth as suggested in a previous post. After turning off the lamp, the bubbling continues for another 10 or 20 seconds out of the crystals, as if they retain some heat.

The spec for the lamp that heats the tube is 14v x 0.2a = 3 watts, approximately.

I was visiting a guy with a big collection of trains and we happened to talk about bubble-tubes. He said he had needed a replacement bubble tube and balked at the price of replacements from a hobby supply. He happened to have some old Christmas lights which have identical-looking bubble tubes, except that they are different colors. They are glued onto the light bulbs in the plastic base but can be separated with some persuasion. It worked OK as a replacement bubble-tube for his Lionel accessory.

The glass part of the light bulb (not visible) has a flat top so it makes full contact with the flat bottom of the bubble-tube.

These vintage bubble-lights are briefly mentioned in a video posted by Jerry:

https://youtu.be/qTDtyFaAZy8?t=15

The methylene chloride ran on the track and began to dissolve the plastic roadbed .

Thank goodness it didn't get on my hands or in my eyes somehow. I still have those pieces of track and they show a corroded whitish area anywhere the liquid touched it.

Well, sure....  Methylene chloride is what's in Tenax as a solvent glue for styrene and other plastics and works by actually melting the surfaces together to make a single assembly - basically "welding plastic" together.

On you hands - small amounts are not a significant issue...unless your hands are styrene or a plastic that methylene chloride can dissolve.  If you are made out of ABS, you're safe,   I've used 100's of gallons of the stuff over my career - only time I've ever had any issues with it was it having some sort of interaction with the alloy in my wedding ring - it would bun me in just that area -- turned out later that I was also allergic to some metal in that alloy - think contact dermatitis, blisters, and blood.....and now I can't wear a ring or even a metal watchband.  One of positive things about methylene chloride is that it is heavier than air and unless you're using gallons of it, the vapor tends to head for the floor so unless you're sticking your nose into it, those inhalation issues are probably minimal, too.

As for the crystals, probably not from the methylene chloride; pretty stable and chemistry to break it down to form any kind of a chloride (what would be the counter-ion??) would probably be beyond containment within these tubes - carbene chemistry.....  I'd wonder whether that is just eroded glass being seen - silicon dioxide (sand)..... 

I was in a tourist town with gifte shoppes.  I wandered into a Christmas store and found bubble lights, both strings and replacement lights.  They are from the Kurt S. Adler company, NY, NY.   www.kurtadler.com

Bill

Methylene chloride.  Is it the same thing as MEK ?   I have used MEK, Methyl Ethyl Ketone, I think, to weld plastic together.  

Being a collector of antique Christmas lighting, I'm not certain how I missed this thread. Here's a cutaway of a NOMA bubble light that illustrates it's basic components and their function...

Source: Bill and George Nelson's Antique Christmas Lights Museum. For more information, see OldChristmasTreeLights.com.

Here's a link to patent information and time lines, detailed explanations of what's in them, manufacturing, and so on. Probably much more than most want to know about bubble lights...

http://www.oldchristmastreelig...m/bubble_lights1.htm

They were developed in case the "smoke" didn't finish you off!

Simon

Ace posted:

... A 3-watt lamp will get the liquid bubbling and the tube does not get too hot to touch. ...

dichloromethane (methylene chloride) has a boiling point of 103.3° F.
compare hot water out of a tap at ~120° F.

FWIW, The Train Tender has bubble tubes for $4.00. Christmas bubble lights are about $8.00 for three, plus the bother to disassemble them.

Guess I am getting lazy. 

overlandflyer posted:

Ace posted:

... A 3-watt lamp will get the liquid bubbling and the tube does not get too hot to touch. ...

dichloromethane (methylene chloride) has a boiling point of 103.3° F.
compare hot water out of a tap at ~120° F.

Uh, water from the tap boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius at sea level.

Jim R. posted:

overlandflyer posted:

Ace posted:

... A 3-watt lamp will get the liquid bubbling and the tube does not get too hot to touch. ...

dichloromethane (methylene chloride) has a boiling point of 103.3° F.
compare hot water out of a tap at ~120° F.

Uh, water from the tap boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius at sea level.

i hope you misunderstood me and you're not as sadistic to have boiling water coming out of your hot water tap.

just trying to compare the relative temperature of the tube being cooler than something anyone might understand, hot water, which is typically about ~120° F (~50° C).

cheers...gary

Methylene Chloride is the best old school carburetor cleaner.

http://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/MCR6402/MCR6402

Home Depot sells paint stripper with Methylene Chloride in it.

 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kle...per-GKS221/100207981

Ace posted:

I have an assortment of old Lionel repair parts acquired from a now-deceased train friend, who in turn acquired it from another estate close-out. It has taken me a while to identify some of the misc items.

One oddity is a "bubbling tube" for a Lionel #455 oil derrick, produced 1950-54. A sealed glass tube, containing yellow liquid and whitish crystals in the bottom, bubbles when heated over a light bulb. This was intended to enhance the illusion that the oil derrick was actually pumping something.

I'm wondering what the liquid is, and if it has any safety hazard. I suspect it would not be approved for modern toys. A 3-watt lamp will get the liquid bubbling and the tube does not get too hot to touch. I might find an alternate use for it on the layout, like a "fizz-water" factory or such.

Hi Ace, I would not worry about how dangerous the liquid inside the bulb is, after all the lie in Drano is far more caustic. In fact it is down deadly.

As for a use for the bulb how about modeling a chemical plant? I have seen clear plastic tubes running through an old plant that was being considered for conversion to a communications hotel. 

The building engineer who was conducting the tour said they used these to make sure the fluids where flowing properly.

I have no idea what I am talking about, other then this hear say information so if anyone knows better what those six inch tubes where used for it would interesting to know.

Oh yea, in the end we decided to let that bargain go.

overlandflyer posted:

Jim R. posted:

overlandflyer posted:

Ace posted:

... A 3-watt lamp will get the liquid bubbling and the tube does not get too hot to touch. ...

dichloromethane (methylene chloride) has a boiling point of 103.3° F.
compare hot water out of a tap at ~120° F.

Uh, water from the tap boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius at sea level.

i hope you misunderstood me and you're not as sadistic to have boiling water coming out of your hot water tap.

just trying to compare the relative temperature of the tube being cooler than something anyone might understand, hot water, which is typically about ~120° F (~50° C).

cheers...gary

Hah. Yes. I get what you are saying now. Hot tap water varies, of course. It could be a scalding 150 degrees. Sadistic enough.

The boiling point will go up with interior pressure. The upper part of the tube will have to be cool to condense the vapor or the boiling point temperature will increase. Best condition would be hot lamp cool room.