Building a Helix

how about making a set of angled washers where the threaded rod goes thru the plywood?

so, if the angle of incline is 4 degrees, then cut a 4 degree angle in a drilled 1" long dowel.  use one half of the cut dowel on each side of the plywood.

just a thought...

When I built both of my helixes, I just cut spacers out of 1x4. They were square on both ends, so they weren't exactly plumb, but it makes no difference in terms of support. If you decide to go with the threaded rod method, again it doesn't matter if the rods are at an angle perpendicular to the roadbed. The real downside of threaded rod construction is the cost. Wood is cheaper and easier.

Wow Elliot!  Pretty impressive!  What are the specs on your helixes?  (Track radius, total floor area, percent grade, and increase in height between successive turns?)

Ted S posted:

Wow Elliot!  Pretty impressive!  What are the specs on your helixes?  (Track radius, total floor area, percent grade, and increase in height between successive turns?)

Thanks Ted. The big one is ten feet in diameter, and the "small" one is eight feet. The big one has six turns and the small one has six and a half turns. The climb per turn is always 8" rail top to rail top. The grade on the big helix is about 2% and about 3% on the small. That 8" rise makes the math really easy. In both cases, I started by making octagonal frame the size of the helix. The neat part is that the track rises 1" on each side to make the 8" total per turn. Once the grade is established on the first turn, it's just uniform spacers all the way up. I guess the floor space is just 64 square feet for the small and 100 square feet for the big, though are reduced by the fact that the corners are clipped to make the octagon.

The big foundation.

The small foundation.

There was an O54 2-1/8 turn oval shaped helix on the layout that we restored for the museum memorial display. It used threaded rod, washers and nuts. it was really wiggly when found from disassembly. It kind of stayed that way until the final assembly. The oval helped reduce the grade slope.

There were two switches in the center level and one at the bottom and top with reversing loop routes on level 1 and 3. It really added a lot of route combinations for the original 3 track level layout.

The threaded rod made it easy to install, uninstall and set the grade. Making wedge spacers from a dowel would have really been great. I didn't design the layout and no one ever thought of that method. We could never really lock the layers tightly with washers only at all points. The dowel wedges would have solved that issue. A power miter saw would make quick work out of making the spacers. 

I have attached a couple of photos - the first when were trying to reimagine the layout and how all of the cut-up pieces fit together and one at a later stage of assembly, well the final actually.

Edit: By the way, 6" was the number for this helix - 24" lower level - 30" center level - 36" 3rd level. 8"  would have been better for vertical clearance, but, we had to reassemble as built originally

Ed, You may wish to check out Bruce Friedman's massive CSX RR helix in Hockessin.  His is done much like Eliott's.

For insight on the helix with threaded rod check out Susan Deat's web page.

For angled washers check out Colburn Meyers in Chester on 9th st.  They carried the angled washers used in H beam construction.  We used them when mounting 300Hp outboards extended high and back on 15" 6061T6 beams.

When I built a 4 track HO helix i attached plywood plates on the underside of the curved helix pieces to eliminate vertical kinks.  A vertical kink will cause many problems with engine lead trucks and with loss of engine power due to drivers losing contact with the rails.

I used wood risers as discussed above because they were all the same height and gave a uniform grade increase. 

I found that my initial placement of risers were too close to the track and  large engines with overhang would hit them.

The grade was about 1.50 percent and I was able to run 100 cars with only lead and pusher engines.

Threaded rods should be no problem if you don't tighten the nuts on top of the roadbed tightly.  Gravity is your friend here.

Hi All,

I omitted this description of the current situation.  

"I am ready to resume building my helix. It will be a 69"/74" radii double track structure. I have already built a donut with an inner radius of 66" and an outer radius of 77" as the base and have cut the 3/4" birch ply for the sub roadbed so it is time to assemble the pieces."

All of the suggestions were reasonable.

WOW! Again, to Elliot.  What a piece of work!  My hat is off to you!!

Moonman, did the wiggle go away when the helix was fully installed?

Tom T, can you provide URL for Susan Deat and Colburn Meyers?

One additional comment: I like the idea of the threaded rod because I can readjust the grade if I have to at anytime during the construction.  With 1x2's or 1x4's, I would have to cut more spacers.  That would take the fun out of this project.

Thanks to all.

Ed

I can see this is the 2 Rail Scale Forum, However, being model train enthusiasts, I thought I would tell you how I built my Helixes. I used 1/2 in plywood, cut my road bed in 074, also used cork roadbed and 072 curves stretched a little, (027 K-Line 072 curves), and 5/16 threaded rod, and have 2% grade, and the pictures I am showing hopefully will be of help to you.  I have two Helixes, one connects my lower level to the middle levels, and the other connects the middle level to the top level. I have a Y on the top level to turn trains around, and reverse loops on the other levels so a train could actually go from the bottom level all the way to the top level and return....I plan to set up Routes with my Cab 2 Legacy System to Navigate this adventure. These Helixes are located in my mountains and I think will be fun to operate when my routes are in place.  Have fun building your model Railroad.  

Ed, search for Susan on this forum. She is a frequent contributor.

Coburn Meyers...dunno URL,  they are local,  I always just stop by and pick up.  Do not even call ahead.  They are located on the property of the former Trainer Diner.  Coburn Meyers is where I got my fix of S.S. bolts.  There is another provider of wedge washers in the N.C.   industrial park, formerly on B & O lane.  Wedge washers are common in the industrial construction field.

edit:  coburnmeyers.com   610 485 5700

catalog nomenclature:  beveled washers

If one has the room, you can stretch your helix into an oval or any shape for that matter. The longer runs will allow for lesser grades.

Susan Deets' Helix is here.

A helix has to be planned, and hidden from view for giving a train some distance by disappearing for a few minutes.  Also, there needs to be a way to see he train in the helix while it’s out of sight. We used plexi-mirror in our drop ceiling for just that.  The Susan Deets helix is very nice, how is she going to hide it? I would be interested in seeing her ideas. Here’s mine.

leapinlarry posted:

A helix has to be planned, and hidden from view for giving a train some distance by disappearing for a few minutes.  Also, there needs to be a way to see he train in the helix while it’s out of sight. We used plexi-mirror in our drop ceiling for just that.  The Susan Deets helix is very nice, how is she going to hide it? I would be interested in seeing her ideas. Here’s mine.

Here's what my two helixes look like now. Almost a shame to cover them up, but it was always in the plan. As far as seeing the trains inside, I use a security camera system. One camera each, but it gets the job done.

Here's the big helix.

And the small helix.

BTW Larry, I don't think Susan has any plans to cover her helix. I think it's a showpiece. It's always fun to watch the trains go around.

This is my double helix I made using 7/16 threaded rod, I used 1/2" fender washers on both sides between the nuts.

 I also used a combination of;  1/2" drive deepwell socket, a long vacuum cleaner belt, 1 1/2" drum sander and cordless drill to run the nuts up & down the rods.

Ed Kelly posted:

Hi All,

I omitted this description of the current situation.  

"I am ready to resume building my helix. It will be a 69"/74" radii double track structure. I have already built a donut with an inner radius of 66" and an outer radius of 77" as the base and have cut the 3/4" birch ply for the sub roadbed so it is time to assemble the pieces."

All of the suggestions were reasonable.

WOW! Again, to Elliot.  What a piece of work!  My hat is off to you!!

Moonman, did the wiggle go away when the helix was fully installed?

Ed, yes it did. Trial and error led us to what Scorse suggested, which is to allow the top side nuts to be only snug to permit the washer to flex. The frame support nuts were tightened well on both top and bottom and the bottom nut for the roadbed was used to set the height and the top to sort of lock it down. Something akin to tightening spokes of a wheel. One word of caution - grind or file the cut ends of the all-thread rods or you will sustain multiple cuts working around it. 

If I had to do one again, I would make the dowel spacers to permit a tight locking and place a final crossmember at the top to stabilize the rods. 

Tom T, can you provide URL for Susan Deat and Colburn Meyers?

One additional comment: I like the idea of the threaded rod because I can readjust the grade if I have to at anytime during the construction.  With 1x2's or 1x4's, I would have to cut more spacers.  That would take the fun out of this project.

Thanks to all.

Ed

 

here is Susan Deats web site link I believe that one her helix hangs from the ceiling.

Elliott, your helix is a masterpiece, your right, covering such a really well made helix sort of hurts, however it gives the time delay illusion second to none. I like your camera ideas, I will look into that for my Helixes.  The main thing I wanted was a safe way to travel from level to level with no derailments, and if that occurred, making Certain no trains going to the floor....Your Layout is 5 times larger than mine, mine bring 38 by 17.... Where did you get your security camera system. Thank you.

BOOMER0622, I like your Helixes and they make for a great action running layout. They look solid, possibly a steeper grade than 2%, but I am sure your trains zip up and down the levels briskly and it would be a fun to run, fun to watch Layout. It goes to show that everyone has unique ideas that are very interesting. Thanks for showing.

The Susan Deets helix, words cannot express, its truly a work of art, and it may be in a room of its own out of view. I would Really like to see the entire layout to get perspective on it.  I like the idea of having several tracks insid the helix as that would make Operation much more interesting. Helixes, Turntables, Transfer Tables, Lift Bridges, Bascule Bridges add so much excitement to our layouts. I simply did not have room for everything I dreamed of. 

Ed Kelly, Great Question and fun thread, my only suggestions are, when building your helix, allow for long passenger cars, 21” in scale, GG1’s with Pantographs up in scale, and shanable freight cars, have plenty of width, a guard rail just in case of derailments, and smooth flowing Trackage, no humps, or bumps, plenty of power, and like Elliott, a security camera system....One other idea I used was a convenient way to get to the Inside of your helix......

See picture of Rolling Thunder, 4 AC6000’s Legacy Controlled....

Have fun and keep us posted on your project, before and after pictures....It a great Journey, and at the end, you’ll be very happy....Happy Railroading 

leapinlarry posted:

Elliott, your helix is a masterpiece, your right, covering such a really well made helix sort of hurts, however it gives the time delay illusion second to none. I like your camera ideas, I will look into that for my Helixes.  The main thing I wanted was a safe way to travel from level to level with no derailments, and if that occurred, making Certain no trains going to the floor....Your Layout is 5 times larger than mine, mine bring 38 by 17.... Where did you get your security camera system. Thank you.

 

Thanks Larry. The security system is a 16 channel Samsung I picked up at Sam's Club. Nothing special about it really. There are tons of systems out there, just pick one the right size for your needs. I'm actually using all 16 cameras to cover all the hidden areas of my layout, and display them on a 55" flat screen. The kids really love it.  The big helix is on camera 8, and the small is on camera 14. 

I very quickly outgrew the 8 channel system I originally purchased. I have plans for that one to watch the 4 aisles of the layout with two cameras each. I hope to be able to live webcast operating sessions eventually.

I had an episode where a train fell to the concrete from the full 6 foot height. The engine stayed on, but a few cars took a real beating. I've since installed a piece of Masonite as a protective fence, so that won't happen again. I also repaired the cause of the derailment. My layout isn't that much bigger than yours, in square footage, about 3 times at 38 x 46, but I have a lot of tack on three levels.

There are two last elements of my helix construction method that I haven't covered yet, and those are the roadbed, and the compass. I use 3/4" plywood everywhere on my layout. But in the helixes, I did something special. I cut 3/8" plywood into straight strips, and laminated two layers together, staggering the joints. The pieces were glued and screwed, then the screws were removed when the glue dried, creating a single seamless roadbed.

The thing resting on the new roadbed is what I call my vertical compass. It consists of a piece of electrical conduit mounted floor and ceiling, an eye screw in the end of a wooden arm, and a piece of perforated metal strap. This rig allowed me to draw consistent track centers all the way up. I just moved the squeeze clamp up as the work progressed. Here you see the bottom layer built on risers. Once construction reached the second turn, the wood spacers were used to support the construction. Track was laid as the roadbed was finished. 

Elliott - Thanks for posting this.  I like the idea of laminating the plywood as you go.  I am sure that created a very durable, smooth surface.

John Z

So many good ideas and construction tips.

Thanks to all.  

Ed

Elliott, Thank You so much for your explanation in building your really nice Helix.  I really like your cameras and ideas and monitor screens and Wow, the size of your train area. I look forward to seeing your progress in the future. 

Thanks John, Ed and Larry. As you can see I have some unconventional ideas, but they work for me. I always enjoy sharing them with everyone who cares to listen. And if you like them enough to use them, that's even better.