Buying MTH non-Proto or Proto 1 Engines today: MISTAKE or OKAY?

It all depends on one's point of view.  It's an individual choice.

Rusty

If you are running conv., go for it!  Just make sure the 9 volt battery is charged up, or go with a cap replacement.

As MTH used to say, "MTH trains do MORE, out of the box......"  If the electronics are still functional, then go for it.  As stated, they will run conventionally, and run good.  If the electronics fail, then a a rather expensive retro-fit will be have to be performed.  Not many parts available.  Also, I believe MTH no longer will service these units.

A friend has been buying up PS-1 engines at very attractive prices and runs everything in conventional mode.  He got tired of fighting his command control problems and is enjoying it more this way.  He never really wanted to be an engineer on his train, but prefers to just watch the trains run around his large layout.

Art

If it's a much-wanted piece of equipment, and if it operates nicely, I sure don't see anything wrong with going for the early stuff.

Personally, all of my current (and future) MTH purchases will be PS3, although I certainly have a large number of PS2 locomotives (no longer have any PS1 or LocoSound items).  I HATE having to worry about batteries in the earlier stuff, and am not quite willing to make a hefty investment in replacing them all with BCRs.  Those replacements will be accomplished on an "as needed" basis, and even then I don't look forward to the task.

Depending upon what you're doing, the MTH engines can be a great deal. The pricing on some Proto1 Premier engines is unbelievably low given their generally excellent level of detail and their features. Steam engines, especially.

Unless you want to upgrade, I would simply consider the cost of the BCR to be part of the purchase price.

Gerry

I will chime in because I have recent experience with a PS1 purchase. I bought a Canadian Pacific GP30 #8202 from '95, because I like that road and it was a good deal. I run a Cab-1/Command set with a TPC 400.

Following advice, I installed a new battery. Didn't matter, I couldn't consistently get it out of neutral. I read some more and learned that these early PS1 engines are fussier than those from '97-up. Not running TMCC or DCS, I installed a Dallee reverse unit, which works perfectly.

Some points to keep in mind:

- The factory headlights run off the PS1 board. I like my engines to NOT have constant-brightness lighting. The factory light bulbs can't handle full voltage direct from the third rail, so be prepared to install new ones if you go this route.

- This engine is surprisingly fast and sensitive to small variations in track grade and voltage drop. I think I've gotten spoiled by "cruise control," but honestly, even my old MPC/LTI engines are less twitchy. I intend to rewire the motors in series rather than parallel.

- All in all, I'm not in a hurry to buy another PS1 unit...unless I find #8200 or 01 for $100 or less, because a pair would look awesome.  

My $.02,

Alan

No problem at all with a PS-1 engine. As others have said and most important is Replace the battery! Any PS-1 engine I have ever got before putting any voltage to it I pull the shell and buy a MTH green battery and install it. The $10 bucks you spend on it is way cheaper than an upgrade kit or finding a second hand PS-1 board. There are some great deals on some nice engines out there.  

OK, I jumped back in with Conventional but rapidly switched to Command Control.

I have a pair of PS1 engines and I now have an Identical PS3 engine to one of them.

While I like the Command Control of the PS2 or 3, I prefer the sounds in the PS1 engine!!!

I will be adding a command system to the PS1 engine but will keep the sounds, they are far better than the PS3 sound set.

And Yes, the old Premier PS1 steamers go for amazing low price compared to new ones. And they have good quality and good detail. The Railking PS1 engines go for even less ! Adding a Command board to them makes an amazing engine at a decent price, But Running Conventional is even more economical.

Now, Locosounds is not as good but if the price is right and you run conventional, go for it. IIRC They tend to be Whistle and bell only but are still nice engines.

I run conventional and get great deals on Loco-sound and PS-1 locos. NEVER had an issue with any Loco-sound unit but a number of PS-1 failures. Sometimes I know the PS-1 is DOA and get it on the cheap.....use a WbB or Dallee reverse unit. So it depends on what you want and what you want to do.

The sounds were better in my old PS engine before I converted it to PS2.  I'd go for anyone of those older engines you like if the price is right.  If not satisfied you can have it converted for about $300 bucks.

.....

Dennis

I have quite a few early MTH. All of the above comments ring true. From my own experience the only problem I have ever had with PSI and earlier is a failed smoke unit - fixed superbly by GGG. In particular I would comment that the "earlier than PS1" stuff runs really smoothly. Great deals if you pay the right price.

MIKE

I have a few of these in the stables; mostly big UP Turbines, and some Steam. I bought a bunch of conversion kits to change them over to PS2, and then never did. I realized that I spend most of my time just running these around the layout, very little if any switching or dithering about. In the end I decided to keep them as PS1's and just enjoy them. I have a bunch of TMCC and PS2 locomotives, but oddly enough it’s the PS1 big turbines I run most of the time.

The battery thing is big though, you definitely want to put a fresh battery in even before powering it up the first time.

r0d

There are plenty of PS-I engines out there at reasonable prices. If you can locate a Z4K at a good price you can unlock even more treats from your PS-I engines. Granted you can run conventional and still enjoy your PS-I engines. 

I have 11 PS-1 locomotives, 3 TMCC, and plain 4 conventional.  I run everything conventionally and the PS-1 locomotives get the most run time.  I love them, and have plans to get many more.  They sound great, run great, pull great, and are easy to fix and service, IMHO.  So I say, no don't buy any, so that I don't have any competition to getting more!

I'm a command control guy so, personally, I never have and don't plan to ever own a PS1 engine. However, if you're a conventional operator, PS1 is probably as good as it gets.

That said, PS1 engines, which are all a minimum of 14 years old or so, are worth a lot less than their MSRP. If I was buying PS1 engines, I'd not pay more than 40-50% of MSRP, and that only for engines that are known to work, are cosmetically correct, and have all of their parts (instruction book, original box and any included add-ons).

I'd also immediately replace the existing battery with a new NiMH battery or BCR. Do not use a NiCad battery, since PS1 engines, unlike PS2 engines, charge their battery continuously and will trigger NiCad "memory effect" sooner rather than later.

While a BCR is better than a battery in PS1 engines, they are expensive if you plan to refurbish many PS1 engines, unless you make your own BCRs.

The question is rather like asking "Can a car enthusiast enjoy a 1969 Mustang?" There's no real answer to it, because it depends entirely on the individual.

If the train operator wants, and would be satisfied with, a relatively inexpensive conventionally-operated engine with older technology that runs fine and has a reasonable level of detail, and is willing to forego modern technology like command control, cruise control, and refined sound systems, and higher levels of detail, then the older non-Proto or Proto1 engines are good.

As has been noted, you shouldn't pay much for them, because in the marketplace they're not worth much. Years ago, when MTH came out with command control (though MW claimed he wasn't working on it, so people kept buying engines), the older Proto1 engines (and their owners) experienced a radical drop in value the likes of which has rarely been seen. This low value is a major reason these older engines can be an attractive buy for a conventional operator.

By all means you can purchase with confidence! I run horn / whistle only versions almost exclusively. The repetitive sounds of the steam chuff or diesel groan gets on my nerves, and it makes it difficult to have a conversation in the train room! Interestingly, very few people have asked to hear the sounds and after a few minutes, most are content to watch them run and just enjoy the scenery. Back to the point, if you like them, and the prices are very competitive right now, BUY THEM  and ENJOY!

Great advice!  That's how I look at any PS purchase!

Here are 3 I bought recently.  The price was so great I had to buy'em!

Maybe some day I'll get a layout started...

If the engine is in good running and cosmetic condition, I would not hesitate to purchase one. These engines were way ahead of their time in quality. The price points that you can buy at make them attractive as well.

Another point is that most Proto-Sound engines can be upgraded fairly easily to Proto-2, TMCC, or Proto-3 (when the kits come out). There are even kits to convert to TMCC and use the existing Proto-1 sound board. (These are long discontinued and hard to find, but there are a few out there). 

I sure hope it isn't a mistake because I bought 8 PS1 locos in the last year alone !

I still run PS2/3 but about a year ago I brought the Z-4000s up from under the layout where they were hidden and and reconfigured my control panel for some conventional running.I also enjoy running PS1 and command together its a little challenging and I enjoy it.

I buy PS1 stuff for a little less than a 1/3 of the original MSRP...if its more I leave it.

Replace the battery with a BCR and you can build a nice fleet on the cheap.  I prefer the older wired tether between the locomotive and tender.  Until MTH can go to an infrared or truly wireless signal connection between locomotive and tender, I remain somewhat skeptical of their new electronic connection between engine and tender.

The last PS-1 loco I bought was a BNSF SD70MAC, excellent condition, for under $100. Its guts will be removed and replaced with TMCC electronics.

My experience for the last few months is that I have not found any deals on PS-1. They have been asking stupid money for them. The few I got are great runners and pullers and were had for a good price. I even like running mine with DCS variable voltage.

Gerry,

I did the same purchases with the UP equipment. Very, very attractive prices in proto one engines that I can run conventionally with a cab-1 or cab-2 and a TPC. I changed all the batteries to BCR's and thoroughly enjoying the older MTH engines with great detail. Maybe does not have the latest and greatest in electronics, but it is not killing my wallet with $1000 and more engine purchases.

There are PS1 engines out there with great deals.

My friend had purchased several PS-1 locomotives years ago with the only intention of displaying them (has was in HO).  When we modified his O gauge layout to run conventional I realized that we could also run his PS-1 equipment.  So I purchased several BCRs for the PS-1's, and installed them.  I then carefully operated them, making sure to wait for the BCRs to get charged up.  Well, all three locomotives run fine.  So I see no reason to avoid PS-1 equipment provided you follow the advice for the various posters above.

Stuart

A lot of these engines especially the premier ones have great detail and unless they are rare you can usually pick them up for a fraction of the original prices. I think a lot of people who buy them convert them to either DCS or TMCC.

I've heard this before, but don't know much about it.  What are the signs of overheating, and does anyone know the details about upgrading these if I wanted to do it myself (Like which diodes they are and what to replace them with.)?  I ask because I like pulling long trains and running for extended periods.

I know that some of the G-scale stuff had a separate diode array that was bolted to the chassis for PS/1 and PS/2 stuff.  It is pretty easy to remove the existing diodes and put a large bridge rectifier in their place bolted to a heatsink.

I wouldn't know which are even diodes unless I know what the silkscreen print of the board is to look for.  As for acting weird, I have a locomotive that will just stop moving after a while, but the sound keep going like it's in motion.  But as soon as I push the direction button twice (Once to neutral, then to reverse.) it goes again like nothing happened.  And it's random if and when it does it.

PS-1 items are just fine; they can be a way to get an exquisite model at a very

friendly price. If Conventional operation is not your thing (it is not mine), there is my preferred solution:

For the price of 3 or 4 fancy boxcars, I recently obtained this almost un-touched MTH

PS-1 J1e Hudson. It is mechanically OK, and the PS-1 was fine out of the box (as was the free dust) - I ran it.

It will not remain PS-1. The pink bags are from one of the Forum's sponsors -

Modern Toy Train Parts.

Terrence, I once had an MTH NYC Box Cab Electric with LocoSounds (was stolen in 2008).

Still to this day that was my favorite engine, if I could find a bunch of them in PRR and NYC livery I would gladly give up PS, TMCC, and Legacy and rebuild my entire layout around it.

I do believe you have to be very very careful and keep the battery charged on those LocoSound and Original PS locos or it scrambles the board?

Some PS-1 locomotives are susceptible to the problem are. A list is quoted in this link.

---PCJ

It all depends on the price, and as others have observed, the market for PS-1 locos makes them very attractive.  I have several that are excellent - once converted to more modern electronics.