Can a Lionel 153 block signal be used with insulated track sections?

My understanding is that you can operate it with insulated track sections, but without a relay you might end up with situations where it displays both red and green at the same time.

Bill N posted:

My understanding is that you can operate it with insulated track sections, but without a relay you might end up with situations where it displays both red and green at the same time.

Yep. I use a relay to activate my 153 signal via insulated track sections. Works great.

Here's a diagram showing how a 153 is used with an AC relay and an insulated rail.

graz posted:

Here's a diagram showing how a 153 is used with an AC relay and an insulated rail.

Graz,

Where do you get you relays? Back years ago, I used Radio Shack relays with rectifiers. Of course, I have not tried to buy relays there in a very long time. I would like to install some new 153's but I need a new source.

Thanks

The relay I use is from here:

http://www.azatrax.com/track-power-relay.html

Admittedly, there are plenty of other suitable ones out there. I just happened to have one of these on hand and used it for my 153 block signal. Works perfectly!  Very smooth transition from green-red-green.

Here's the AC "ice cube" relay that I've been using. I pair them up with the plug-in base that is available to simplify wiring connections.

https://www.automationdirect.c...,_plug-in,_3a_-_15a_(78x-z-_qxx-z-h78x_series)/general_purpose,_15a_(781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_series)/782-2c-12a

I'd get a relay with a time delay to eliminate any chattering/flickering due to intermittent wheel contact caused by dirty wheels.

graz posted:

...

https://www.automationdirect.c...,_plug-in,_3a_-_15a_(78x-z-_qxx-z-h78x_series)/general_purpose,_15a_(781_-z-_782_-z-_783_-z-_784_series)/782-2c-12a 

Your link to the automation direct site doesn't work.  In any case, I believe you're referring to this relay and socket.

If you don't mind some DIY wiring (though no soldering required), this recent OGR post shows how to cobble together the AC relay function using 2 eBay modules for less than $4 (free shipping from Asia).

The thread discusses a variety of other methods.

Here is how to do it w/o relays or modules as posted in 2011.

The extra incandescent method yields more joy if the 153 does NOT have the resistor in the base. 

@ADCX Rob posted:

Here is how to do it w/o relays or modules as posted in 2011.

Worked great for me. No need for a relay.

Have used the Lionel infrared controls with much success.

Bill, I have used those as well, have a few on my layout, they do work well.  The above is just another option that costs around $1.00

@ADCX Rob posted:

Here is how to do it w/o relays or modules as posted in 2011.

H'm!  How well would that work with those 12v bayonet socket LED bulbs? 

Mitch

On my old 70s layout I attached another relay to the stop (red) side to shut down the block to the rear of the train to hold a second train until the the signal showed Clear (green) . About a six foot insulated section beginning at the signal did the job.  A second signal wired in parallel with the first was placed at the beginning of the shut downed block where the second train would be stopped.  (Only have two colors to work with).     We ran two nice long trains on the line (about 50 ft. in length) at the same time, adjusting the number of cars until the two trains were about even in timing, but with enough overlap so that viewers cold see the trains stop and proceed on signal indication. Of course both trains were locked in forward.  Visitors were delighted to see trains move and clear on signal. Fun and easy to do.  Those old Lionel pamphlets about operating trains had a whole lot of great tips for interesting running.       

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

H'm!  How well would that work with those 12v bayonet socket LED bulbs?

Mitch

It could probably be worked into this scheme.

There was an article in a train magazine how to use the 153 with Atlas snap relays.  Posting the article would be a copyright violation.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Bob Nelson explains how the resistance in the circuit affects the performance, so LEDs can be used, in parallel with the bulbs, but you still need to use the bulbs as well, hiding them under the layout, eg.

I s'pose one could light a trackside structure or something. 

Even then, because the one bulb never actually shuts off, an LED will probably remain "on" when you expect it to be off.

It sounds sort of like how Minitoys did "directional" lighting on their trolleycars.  Each bulb is wired to one of the brushes.  When the motor is going one way, the bulb is getting power directly from the track.  When the motor goes the other way, that same bulb is getting power after it's been through the motor; this reduces voltage to the bulb and dims it.  Quite clever, really.

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

...When the motor goes the other way, that same bulb is getting power after it's been through the motor; this reduces voltage to the bulb and dims it.

This is exactly how Fundimensions did it with the tender backup light on the 1975 8506 switcher.

Some might ponder that using a power-hungry bulb (incandescent) to operate an energy-saving LED signal is incongruous.  That said, the math to analyze how/why a bulb can be applied to an LED pair is a bit more involved than bulb-alone or LED-alone.  That is, there have been many OGR threads about how insulated-rail can control a red-green LED signal WITHOUT using a bulb and WITHOUT using a relay.  For example, here's one OGR thread.

By all means try the bulb method.  If it works then game over, declare victory, life is good, etc.

If it doesn't work, or not as well as you'd like, then we can re-visit.

@stan2004 posted:

The extra incandescent method yields more joy if the 153 does NOT have the resistor in the base.

Resistance is futile!

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Resistance is futile!

There is another method if you ate running trains one way.  Some railroads keep signals dark unless there is a train within a set distance of he signal.  I think it is called approach signaling.  If the signal is facing opposed to the direction of traffic, then use the insulated block, and wire to light the RED signal only.  It will only show red as the train approaches and passes the signal.  Once out of the block, it will show only a dark signal.

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Of your layout is in a flying cube!

@ADCX Rob posted:

It could probably be worked into this scheme.

I'm getting an error with your link.

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

H'm!  How well would that work with those 12v bayonet socket LED bulbs?

Mitch

Are you genuinely interested in the answer to this?  It seems this thread has devolved into a hodge-podge of random comments.

@stan2004 posted:

Are you genuinely interested in the answer to this?  It seems this thread has devolved into a hodge-podge of random comments.

Well, I have a 153 with LEDs and I'd like to get away from any sort of actuator if possible, so yes. 

Mitch

Upon further examination, the LED approach may be very simple and arguably better performing than the bulb method.

First, there have been previous OGR discussions on what is inside the LED replacement bulbs that supposedly work with AC.  Obviously there are zillions of LED replacement bulbs that work with DC for automotive replacement applications.

Now this gets a little techno-geeky but I was somewhat pleased with this discovery.  Skip to the end of this post when your eyes start to glaze over.

The key is to use an LED bulb that has both a diode and resistor (in addition to the LED).  For example, there was this OGR discussion about high failure rates in an LED bulb that only has a resistor.  OTOH, there was this OGR discussion with happy results for an LED bulb that has both the diode and resistor.  Again, remember we are talking O-gauge applying AC voltages to LED bulbs which is a fairly unique application in the big scheme of thing.

Presumably if you've gotten this far you're familiar with the analysis of how the bulb method works...as referred to earlier in this thread.  The "discovery" is that if the LED replacement bulbs are as I show above, then you won't have the so-called dimming problem with the insulated-rail trigger method!  That is, if you apply AC to the red and green wires of the 153...and leave the common wire open, the internals diodes in the 2 LED bulbs are facing opposite polarity and both light will be dark!  In contrast, the original 2 incandescent bulbs in a 153 will be faintly dim as each would get half the AC voltage.

So, because there is not a dimming issue, you can actually use a cheap 5-cent resistor to implement insulated-rail triggering without the need for a relay. And you would not be "burning" a lot of power if a bulb is used as the external load to power the green bulb in the untriggered condition.

I don't have the LED replacement bulbs for a 153, so I just wired up proxies as shown above.  In other words the LED + diode + resistor.  Then I added a 5-cent resistor (470 Ohms) between the common and Red terminals of the 153.  Here it is in action:

Note that this method does not have any flicker/chatter protection for dirty/intermittent wheel contact.  Some comments were made earlier in this thread about the relay method which can be used with time delay to implement this.

The astute observer might conclude this method could be applied to the original incandescent bulb method by adding cheap 5-cent diodes to each bulb.  This would solve the dimming problem assuming half-wave power to the bulbs is bright enough.

Add a couple of caps across the LED and resistor, and you'll have flicker resistance.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Add a couple of caps across the LED and resistor, and you'll have flicker resistance.

If only life was that simple.   In these LED replacement bulbs the reverse-voltage protection diode is INSIDE the bulb housing (along with the resistor and LED itself).  I suppose a cap and a reverse-voltage diode (to protect the cap) could be added external to the LED bulb...

Stan, I was going by your diagram that showed external diodes.

Fair enough.  My diagram was not clear enough.  That's on me.

As I see it, an AC-compatible LED bulb consists of 3 components all crammed into the bayonet housing.  I don't have one so in my proof-of-concept I created a proxy.

So because the diode is buried inside the bayonet housing, one would have to open up the housing to access a DC point suitable for a energy storage capacitor.  The voltage applied to the bulb itself is AC.

This is picking at nits, but if capacitors could be placed in the red and green LED bulbs (internally or externally) flicker may indeed be demoted.  But I think you'd get situations where BOTH aspects are on at the same time (albeit momentarily); as to whether this is a ho-hum artifact or a show-stopper is a to-each-his-own.  OTOH, with the relay method (SPDT), the addition of a capacitor for flicker/chatter reduction is "clean" in that you could never have both aspects on at the same time.

Yep, I was just doing it the simple way with the diagram presented.

I believe in the relay as well, that's why I created these.  Does the while job, no flicker, 10A relay, and DCS protection.  Did I mention no soldering, all the connections are a terminal block.  If you want a longer delay, I left an external cap connection to boost the delay before dropout with an external cap.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, I was just doing it the simple way with the diagram presented.

I believe in the relay as well, that's why I created these.  Does the while job, no flicker, 10A relay, and DCS protection.  Did I mention no soldering, all the connections are a terminal block.  If you want a longer delay, I left an external cap connection to boost the delay before dropout with an external cap.

Looks interesting.  Looks like this relay also could power, say, a 145 gateman as well as the 153.  Semaphore possible?

Stan:  Brilliant!  Now, where does one obtain these wunderkind LED bayonet bulbs?  The ones I've encountered on eBay, et cetera seem to be resistor-only.   

Mitch

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Looks interesting.  Looks like this relay also could power, say, a 145 gateman as well as the 153.  Semaphore possible?

Well, it has a 10A relay, so it could power quite a few things.   Here's a simple diagram of it connected to a red/green signal, likely one of the simplest uses.  In this configuration it's powering the board from the track voltage, and the signal from external power.

For conventional users, it's frequently useful to power everything with external power, that is easily accommodated.

You'll note in this example, the track center rail is not used as we derive no power from the track, just trigger on the insulated rail to switch aux power.  The outside rail is represented, that is because to use the insulated rail technique, your aux power and track power must share a common ground.

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

...

Now, where does one obtain these wunderkind LED bayonet bulbs?  The ones I've encountered on eBay, et cetera seem to be resistor-only.   

I copied a paragraph from my earlier post:

The key is to use an LED bulb that has both a diode and resistor (in addition to the LED).  For example, there was this OGR discussion about high failure rates in an LED bulb that only has a resistor.  OTOH, there was this OGR discussion with happy results for an LED bulb that has both the diode and resistor.  Again, remember we are talking O-gauge applying AC voltages to LED bulbs which is a fairly unique application in the big scheme of thing.

As discussed in the 2 threads, the consensus was the reason for high failure rate of the LED bulb without the diode was the lack of that diode (internally).  That is, it would work fine for automotive 12V DC applications, but should not have been used in AC applications such as O gauge.  The 2nd thread shows an off-the-shelf LED bulb (albeit wedge style base) that has the internal diode and resistor.  This was apparently specifically designed as a drop-in replacement for O-gauge AC applications.  I guess I assumed that if one can buy an "obscure" wedge-style base AC LED, then you'd be able to get a bayonet style AC LED (with internal diode and resistor).

But, if finding a bayonet genuine AC LED is a snipe hunt, then simply add the diode externally.  Diodes are maybe 5 cents a piece in small quantity and essentially any diode will work (you do not need a high power diode).  Of course now you have fuss with 3 added components...

As mentioned earlier, I believe the external diode method can be applied to the original scheme for insulated-rail (no relay) control of the original (incandescent bulb) 153 or equivalent.  This could potentially solve the dim-bulb "problem" of that method.  I can elaborate if there's any interest.

I can report that I use hundreds of Town and Country Lionel direct replacement LED bulbs on my layout.  These LED bulbs have been on my layout for over 10 years with zero failures.

Here is my drawing of a relay set-up for a 153 Block Signal.

The Capacitor helps eliminate Relay chatter, and will hold the relay closed for a second after the last wheel leaves the insulated rail.  I only show one track length of insulated rail, but it can be much longer, depending on the size of your block and length of train. The other contacts on the relay can be used to kill the power to the center rail in the block approaching the signal,  ( not shown in my drawing )  so the following train stops at the red signal, but will proceed when signal turns green.

Steve