Can someone explain to me what cruise control does in conventional engines?

Conventional means to run the engine from a transformer.

 

Cruise control is a feature where a computer board is built into the engine and that regulates the motor and if equipped will maintain a speed for you.

 

When a engine has electronic computer boards, it is no longer a conventional engine.

 

There is nothing to be ashamed of. I have been in HO for decades until moving into O scale post eye surgery.

Command/control is TMCC or DCS control in the O-Gauge land.  Cruise control is as Lee described it, it's a feature to maintain constant speed regardless of load or grades.  I've never seen a Legacy locomotive without cruise control, I don't believe they make one.  I'm pretty sure that DCS locomotives have cruise control as standard as well, at least the ones I've run across have.

 

TMCC (pre-Legacy command/control) can have cruise control, but many of those older products don't have the capability. 

Perhaps he means how does cruise work when running a PS2 or Odyssey equipped engine without DCS or TMCC, i.e., with a conventional transformer. From reading a PS2 manual it appears that the cruise function will work even while running 'conventional'.

Lee 145 writes: When a engine has electronic computer boards, it is no longer a conventional engine.

 

This is not entirely correct; PS engines have/had microprocessor boards and are/were strictly conventional in operation.

Cruise control works in conventional exactly as it works in command; either a by a tach reader reading a tach strip on a flywheel, or emf backfeed.  Speed control in these settings is independent of command or conventional control. 

In conventional,the cruise control holds power in reserve and adds extra voltage to the motor to maintain a constant speed when going up hill or pulling added cars. Voltage is reduced down hill to maintain a constant speed for a given throttle voltage. This is why PS2 locos for example do not start in conventional until when about 8 volts is applied on the throttle. As described the speed is measured contr by the tach strip or in some systems backward EMF measured off the motor(s). So for 12 volts throttle the engine will move at a constant speed uphill or down hill for example.

 

Dale H

Thank you Dale that was the answer I was looking for.  I understand what TMCC/DCS/PS2 are, thanks guys.  

The MTH engines with Locosound (aka conventional) also have Cruise Control built in.  I have a RailKing RS3 and a RailKing 2-8-0 and both perform fine with the Cruise Control feature.

 

ERR makes the Cruise Commander kit.  I added one to my Williams E7 a while back (plus I added the MRC AC Sounder).

 

This brings up a question...With the ERR Cruise Commander installed, would it make a difference if the 2 motors were wired in series first or should they be kept as separate connections to the CC circuit board?

 

I'm pretty sure I left mine as 2 separate connections.  Would someone who has re-wired their Williams engines to have the motors in series have to undo them BEFORE connecting them to the ERR CC board?

I'd wire the motors in parallel for the ERR cruise control.  I've done that with all my installations, and that's what they specify in their installation instructions.  They may have more issues determining the speed from the back-EMF if you have series connected motors.  In addition, you'd have a lot less torque available at the high end for grades and large consist's.

I have to admit, the problem of having to constantly man the throttle to keep the trains from stalling on upgrades or running away on downgrades was a big reason I've been planning a layout with No grades... if there is an inexpensive add-on system for conventional locomotives that would be a game-changer for me.

If you have locomotives with DC motors, you can take a look at the ERR Cruise Commander.  There is no solution for AC motors that I'm aware of, those are the old "man the throttle" types.

AC(series wound) motors actually run very well on DC and if you keep either the field or the armature from reversing polarity while you switch the other by reversing the motor power(TMCC/DCS/ERR style) all you need to do is come up with a way to affix a tach tape/stripe and reader.

Running on DC isn't much of a problem, but trying to use the back EMF speed sensing is.  When you interrupt the motor's power to take a back EMF reading, the field winding is also shut off, and there goes your back EMF!  (You did say tach and sensor, but the back EMF scheme is simpler for retrofits.)

Lionel had designed a cruise control for the Pulmore motor which was to debut in the release of the year 2000, Super Santa Fe Passenger Set. A magnet retain ring was designed and made to fit on/over the poles of the pulmore armature, surrounding the commutator. A magnetic ring, like used on the can motors for speed sensing, was to snap on it.  The brushplate was notched in the center front on the underside to accept a PCB with a reader on it and an opening was molded into the top/front of the brushplate for attachment and wire harness routing.  This can still be seen on many of the pulmore motor brushplates of that time frame. There was a volocity connecting  harness made for an attachment to some other PCB unit. 

 

LIONEL demo'd this arrangement at the LCCA convention in the late 1990's in Philadelphia. They used a clear shell F-3A that had a single motor and ran up and down a small graded  test oval to show how it worked.  It was the greatest thing since sliced bread for us Pulmore die-hards.  Alas, the oddessy pulmore motor control  never went into production!

 

We know from posting by Jon Z. of Lionel, that he had been working on a refinement of the system, but sent it to the back-shelf!!! Perhaps it is time to retrieve it and dust it off and make it work for us pulmore die-hards.

 

Can we say: "Oddessy Motor". This motor was to be the next evolution for the pulmore motor; having many more stators and poles to make it run better.  One of the reasons this motor did not come to the market place was due to its high production costs.  Can the Asian manufacturing base make it less expensive??

 

Lionel had invested much money in the development of this concept, of which the Oddessy System was found to also be able to support can motors, and is used today, although updated for the newer trends in control.

 

As was said in the "Million Dollar Man" : 'We have the technology to do this"; let's put our minds and brawn to the task and produce the next generation motor.  Dennis M.

Well, the Pulmore motor cruise would have limited appeal unless it could be retrofit to all of the old ones out there.  There aren't many new Pulmore motored locomotives being made.  I'm sure a big part of that is the fact that it's much cheaper to use the DC can motors, and they perform very well for the task.

 

I for one wouldn't be tempted by a noisy Pulmore motored locomotive over a can motored model, even if both had cruise.

Wowak;

One point for you to consider:

As far as I can tell, All MTH Engines are now PS2 or PS3.

However they run fine in conventional mode, just power up the track and they run in cruise control as described by Dale H.

They also have a number of sound sequences you can trigger with bell and whistle button presses.

Lionel also sells conventional engines to this day.

You are not limited to older engines.

 

Welcome back to the addiction  ;-)

I have a related question for the Lionel Legacy/Odyssey experts on this forum.

 

My Lionel Lionmaster Big Boy is a Legacy locomotive equipped with Odyssey II speed control.

 

My layout is Fastrack using the MTH DCS system to operate my MTH/Rail King Proto 2 equipment.

 

I do not have Lionel's Legacy Command System -- yet.

 

When I operate my Lionmaster Legacy/Odyssey II Big Boy, it runs in conventional mode as expected. In conventional mode, is Odyssey speed control disabled? The Big Boy runs FAST and FURIOUS, it will not run at slow steady speed, even though the Odyssey II button is turned on (the button is under the locomotive).

 

For the Lionmaster Big Boy to operate with active Odyssey II speed control, do I need to get the Legacy command system on my Fastrack?

Thanks for any insight regarding this matter.

 

Your OGR buddy,

 

Terrence

Coram, NY

If you tried to switch a yard with a real life big boy, you will be exhausted by lunch time me thinks. It's just the way these things are built to run. Need a train to load em down to mind manners.

Well, I will say that with TMCC the Odyssey II should be working, so I don't know why you're having that kind of problem.  I'd consider trying on a layout with a real Legacy controller as my next step.

Hi GunrunnerJohn,

 

The point is that I am NOT running TMCC. I am using MTH DCS so my Lionel engines run in conventional mode.

 

I was just wondering if Odyssey II would still provide speed control or not if there is no TMCC or Legacy system hooked up to the track.

 

What do you think?

Well, I'll say that I believe it's supposed to offer speed control in conventional mode.  This is a quote from my U-Boat manual, but I'm sure the same thing is in other manuals.  I checked my C&O 4-6-0 and the Conrail SD-80, both had the exact same words.

 

The Odyssey II Speed Control system is automatically operational when you operate your locomotive in conventional (non-Command Control) mode, as long as the Odyssey II Speed Control system switch is in the ON position (see Figure 4 on page 8). This means that your locomotive will maintain a constant speed, compensating for grades, loads, and turns. Simply use your transformer’s throttle to adjust the speed of your locomotive.

 

Thanks for that info John. Based on the above data, it appears that my Odyssey II is not functioning on my Lionmaster Big Boy as it should. I was suspicious that something is wrong. I even took the boiler off to check all of the boards, connections and wires. Nothing seemed out-of-place or damaged.

 

The Lionmaster Big Boy is a heavy beast! I'll have to take it to a Lionel Service Station to be checked out. There's one about 35 miles from my home (Nassau Hobby Shop).

 

Thanks again for the info. You are an OGR encyclopedia and a great friend to all of the members of this forum. 

 

Terrence
Coram, NY 

Thanks, but I'm just one of many, lots of folks here with good info.   This was easy to check out.

 

Just for laughs, I fired up one of my U-boats with my KW and the command base off.  The Odyssey seemed to work, it held a good steady speed.  I did notice that it took more throttle to start moving, doubtless them keeping a reserve of voltage for the speed control.

I am new to Digital Control.  I just got DCS Operators manual 5th edition.  It is 140 pages with an index and table of contents.  I do not find the term "cruise control".  Can someone please explain the basics of how this is implemented in a DCS system?  Thank You

 

Bill

Protosound 2/3 and Lionel Legacy both have cruise control as a standard feature.  In a nutshell, the object of cruise control is to keep the locomotive running at a constant speed regardless of load or grades.  Some other locomotives also have cruise control, any of the earlier Lionel models that mention Odyssey, or the TAS EOB (Engineer On Board) upgrades also offer cruise.

 

I have a conventional layout, but own one locomotive with Odyssey--a Chessie Alco S-4 switcher from 2005.  My first experience with anything with electronics in it.

 

With Odyssey on, it runs beautifully and smoothly in a conventional setting; quite a contrast to my PW/MPC fleet!  On the other hand, the "power reserve" feature causes it to run exceptionally slow, even with full track power applied... which is not too much to my liking.  All in all, though, a useful feature to have, in command or conventional.

 

 

In command mode, I can run any of my TMCC/Legacy or DCS locomotives at speeds where they would jump the tracks if I let them, so I don't see any speed limitations.  I've never felt any speed limitation restricted my operation of any command locomotive.  I don't run them conventionally, so I don't have a benchmark for that mode of operation.

In DCS, an optical tachometer module is attached to the motor.  It shoots a beam of light at a striped flywheel attached to the motor shaft and counts the reflections to determine motor speed.  A processor chip then calculates and adjusts the motor drive voltage to maintain the desired speed.  In command mode, the desired speed can be precisely set in units of scale-MPH using the digital remote.  In conventional mode, the speed is set by the track voltage.