Can you identify?

I agree, home made, but done nicely. defiantly Lionel trucks.

Those couplers look very familiar, but I cannot place them.
I think the trucks are Lionel too.
If that is home made, the fellow had the all right equipment, and the skills to use them.

It is undoubtedly homemade.  I dabble in genealogy, and looked up the name, with the St. Louis, Mo., and Leonard H. Schenk was born around 1922-1924.  His father's occupation in the 1940 Census was "Tinner", so I would take a wild guess that his father made the hopper for his son.  His father was Leonard Ludwig Schenk, of German ancestry, and would have had the skills to make the hopper, and cobbled other parts to make a complete hopper.  Nice job, for something homemade.

You're all wrong.

It's a ca. 1937 American Flyer - Chicago #3207 Sand Car that has been repainted and decaled.

Ron M

I think you are mistaken Ron M.  Take a good look at any number of 3207 Sand Cars, and none match what Frisco Brakeman shows.  The bottom frame doesn't match any A/F, the couplers are definitely homemade.  If it were a 3207 that was repainted, then where are the raised ribs on the side panels........mysteriously missing on the above one.  I'm not into arguing with you, just pointing out what I see, with your comparison to it being A/F 3207.  With that, I will not getting into any arguments about it, and let Frisco Brakeman decide.

TeleDoc posted:

I think you are mistaken RonH.  Take a good look at any number of 3207 Sand Cars, and none match what Frisco Brakeman shows.  The bottom frame doesn't match any A/F, the couplers are definitely homemade.  If it were a 3207 that was repainted, then where are the raised ribs on the side panels........mysteriously missing on the above one.  I'm not into arguing with you, just pointing out what I see, with your comparison to it being A/F 3207.  With that, I will not getting into any arguments about it, and let Frisco Brakeman decide.

OOPS! The name your responding to is RonM not RonH.

RONH,  Sorry for posting the wrong name.  Both of you have usernames that are too close.  Accept my apology for the mistake.

TeleDoc posted:

RONH,  Sorry for posting the wrong name.  Both of you have usernames that are too close.  Accept my apology for the mistake.

No problem, interesting post, just learning, the couplers look familiar just do not know where I saw them.

Okay RONH, after checking you against RON M, here is the question, of which I already know what your answer will be...LOL.

Taylor Ham or Pork Roll?  The veritable North and South Jersey controversy!!!

The coupler looks similar to American Flyer's Type 10 coupler known as the sheet metal knuckle coupler or the curly cue coupler from 1938 - 1939.  It isn't though.  The Type 10 couplers  were held on with a rivet and able to flex.  The one on the mystery car is rigid.  I think the original owner did a great job on copying it.

Greg

The couplers certainly resemble American Flyer "Q" couplers from 1938.

TeleDoc posted:

Okay RONH, after checking you against RON M, here is the question, of which I already know what your answer will be...LOL.

Taylor Ham or Pork Roll?  The veritable North and South Jersey controversy!!!

Taylor ham. Put it on a hard-roll with egg cheese is optional and "SKP" (salt/pepper/.ketchup).
Breakfast of champions?

ron m posted:

You're all wrong.

It's a ca. 1937 American Flyer - Chicago #3207 Sand Car that has been repainted and decaled.

Ron M

OOPS! I'll have the Crow roasted if you don't mind.

Altho the coupler 'looks' similar to AF's curly-Q, it's not the 'Real Thing'. It was fashioned from sheet metal and formed then 'welded'/'soldered' to a tab. AF had the tab as a part of the formed shape. Again, this time 'really' doing some comparison work, I agree that they ARE Lionel trucks, TCA Type IV.

Ron M with a very bright crimson face

Hey gang ! here is some more about the mystery car I have posted. The couplers do have some movement. The sides and ends are spot welded together, the side are bent at 90% so the bottom could be/is spot welded together, actually all seems and joints are spot welded together. the only rivets are the ones holding the trucks and couples in place, and the couplers can move side to side without moving the trucks. The tang of the coupler has a slot punched in it and the truck has tiny tab that hangs down to prevent the couple from much movement, but the coupler can move forward a bit and can swivel a little. I have a prewar  o  AF here and I thought the same thing too, but it is not AF, I my self think this was hand made or custome made. I got this at an auction barn here in NW Arkansas, it was on a table with a buch of #6014 box cars and others. The stuff was not really selling well with the dozen or so people there, and so the started selling it buy the tables. I bought the whole table for 10 or 15 dollars. Nothing really collectable but stuff to fill my Frisco engines  with. Here are a few more shots of the couple mating to a knuckle couple and some shots of the tab and slots as well as the joining of the spot welded body and bottom. An interesting car, I wish I hadn't destroyed the decals , but I have a good printer, so I think a can maybe make a new set. I would like to maybe repaint it but I  not sure I will not do that. Somebody went to a lot of work to do this. Maybe Mr Lenard  H. Schenk was in metal class in school, and maybe this was his final class project he turned in for his grade. I know when I was in high school metal shop we did projects to show off what we learned, Not only did we do sheet metal but also did metal casting as well, with sand molds and all.

Frisco Brakeman.  As I posted earlier with the genealogical search, Leonard H. Schenk's father was Leonard Ludwig Schenk.  The 1940 Federal census showed he worked at a Milk Factory, and his occupation was listed as "Tinner".  I would take that is he was what most of us would call a "Tin Knocker", and was very familiar with working with metals.  The trucks are from a known manufacturer, of which is up for debate as to which one.  The body itself, and the fashion of the couplers, to me, look homemade, but made like Gilbert's which Ace posted.  I would venture a guess that it was made some time in the 1940's, during the war.  I don't know any history of when decals were first made, or if they were applied later, after the war.  It is definitely a unique piece, and very well done.

Leonard is still alive (the last time I saw him was Christmas show) and quite elderly. Still comes to shows and dabbles in collecting.  I think his dad worked for the Pevely Dairy here in St. Louis.

It is a good copy of the flyer car. I bet under the tuscan paint you will find galvanized sheet metal that dinner used for ductwork and other stuff.  I think that Leonard collected Flyer prewar, but I don't know for sure.

Well folks thanks for all your info! It was mighty exciting to  see you all working for an answer. Your knowledge and diligence  is amazing!!! I appreciate all of it , I learn so much about trains from you; that I don't know. I'm glad to be able to contribute something to actually work your wonderful intelligence. I had was sure the trucks were factory, and I was pretty sure the rest was hand built. I like it and it will, even though not a collectable; go on display with my small ( just starting collection of TINPLATE ). Its just something you don't come across but once in a blue moon. Thanks again         Pete

Sounds pretty collectible to me.  The story behind it beats anything else I've heard.  And the guy who made it is still alive? 

William1...yes at last check.  Though elderly and frail.

That's interesting to see a back-shop metal car from nearly 80 years ago. Thanks for posting with all the photos !

Rob English posted:

William1...yes at last check.  Though elderly and frail.

Mr  English do you know Mr. Schenk the original owner of this car, or were you talking about some other person.  William 1 ?

I'm pretty sure he is talking about Mr. Schenk.  From what I read earlier in the thread.  That would be cool to let him know you have the car he made.  In my opinion, that car is one of a kind and a real treasure.  Great find and great story.

This is an incredible forum with such a diverse knowledgeable group of members.   Simply amazing.  

  How close a "copy" to the AF is it?   The build quality is at least high enough you questioned if it was manufactured or custom built.   So what, it's not fine scale brass, or a lost prototype; I'd say it's a rather exclusive item, and would be tempted to seek out others made by him too. I think I'd pay more for that than I would most modern cars.

    Rob E seems to be the industry expert on the Schenk Tinny shops maybe he could create a guide for them . Or relay your number and/or some thanks to Lenard Say hello for us too

(Schenectady/Schenk Tinny.. ...)

   I know I would at least be flattered by contact like that if I had built it. I've built automobiles that folks came to see me with again years later. I usually had extra parts rounded up into a single box by then and would hand them over to be appreciated since the car was

  We don't know who is supplying trucks half the time on some of today's trains either 

.

William 1 posted:

Sounds pretty collectible to me.  The story behind it beats anything else I've heard.  And the guy who made it is still alive? 

Rob English posted:

William1...yes at last check.  Though elderly and frail.

Elderly and frail can be a very sad condition to deal with. Mr Schenk may not remember what he did 70+ years ago. 

If I had the opportunity I would show Mr Schenk that old car to see his response. He might not recognize it. Or he might talk about trains for an hour. The elderly are full of surprises.

Leonard is 90.  I will print a copy of this thread (part of it anyway) and give it to him when I see him.  Hopefully it will trigger good memories!

The car is made with simple cut, weld, fold and roll techniques.  You can tell that it was made by someone that knew the trade.  I have in my possession a station/platform combo that looks like a 115/129 station and terrace....with turned brass lamp holders, embossed stone work etc.   The maker probably saved 2-3 weeks pay by making it.  Here is another example of saving money. Its the way folks thought back then. A depression will do that.

Frisco Brakeman posted:

Rob English posted:

William1...yes at last check.  Though elderly and frail.

Mr  English do you know Mr. Schenk the original owner of this car, or were you talking about some other person.  William 1 ?

Yes, I know Mr Schenk.

Hi guys and gals out there reading this. Its been a hot day here in NW Ar. I appreciate all the help. I want to put the car in the Mr. Schenk hands.I live just a few hours away from St. Louie. My son and I are prepared to drive  there; as we have been planning a trip there before the end of summer. We have his ride in the shop today getting some minor repairs ; My birthday is in September, so we might try to make the trip then. I want to ask  Mr. Rob English if he would be so kind to; to see if he can or would be able to have a visitors; We wouldn't stay long; and I really want to meet him and let him hold his toy. If not I will try and send him a letter and some pics.  My son and his ride, a few picks of Mr. Schenk hopper car, his name printed on bottom of car. For the guys that commented it might be an a American Flyer there is a pic of my 1936-37 Green Hopper car , to compare it with.

Let me look into his current status.... ill get back with you.

Frisco Brakeman, I inquired about Leonard  and think that the best way might be to write him.  I'm told you probably won't get a response, but if you want to try PM me for his address.