Canadian National 6218 Back To Operation??? Could It Work????

Railfan Brody posted:

First of all, as of now, CN 6218 has no mainline plans. But what if a group could change that? Is it even possible? I don't know much about the locomotive, so if anyone knows, let me know if 6218 could be a good candidate for restoration. From looking at the locomotive, I can tell it needs new paint, a roller bearing tender, probably a 26L air column, cab signaling, maybe an MU controller, and a very dedicated crew!

Let me know if this can work or if it's a dead dream!

 

 

It'll take a little more than that.  Don't forget money, lots of it. 

Outside of the 6218 being brought up to current Canadian boiler codes, it'll have to brought up to current US boiler codes if run in the US.

Plus, you don't know what you don't know about the boiler until you start taking it apart.

Rusty

It really is a leap of faith to undertake a project like this. I think it would be best to move it to the US. It ran a lot of excursions here.

Question number one: does Fort Erie Ontario want to get rid of the 6218?

http://fess.dsbn.org/docs/guid...rochure.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Second, it would also need $$$ to prep an move the 6218.  It looks like it's isolated from a railroad.  You're gonna need panel track, heavy equipment and manpower to move it.  No small task.

I present the following issue of IRM's Rail and wire, which contains an article about removing Santa Fe 2903 from Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry:

http://www.irm.org/railwire/rw154.html#2903b

Third, where would it go in the US?  There would have to be some sort of organized coalition to prepare, receive, store and be prepared to start work long before the moving the locomotive, assuming Fort Erie wants it gone.

Rusty

 

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

And IRM has GTW 6323.

Rusty

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

Because it could double head with 6060!

645 posted:

Is 6218 even on live rail? If 'no' then it needs to be craned/trucked to live rail - or put on a heavy duty flat for transport like the 2100 was moved from Washington state to Ohio in April 2015. So that is obstacle #1 to a restoration.

More realistically the biggest issue for steam is where to run it and getting mainline compatible passenger cars to pull behind same. While quite a few museums have useable passenger cars most aren't qualified for mainline use as I think they need to meet Amtrak compatible specifications. So something like the 1920's open platform Lackawanna coaches at the Illinois Railway Museum (they have seen almost continuous use at IRM since the 1970's but are well maintained) I doubt will be allowed on a mainline carrying passengers these days.

The "easiest" part is actually restoring the engine. There are many engines that are capable of running on the mainline but do to a variety of factors can't so do ranging from CSX's current 'no steam allowed' policy, required minimum insurance coverage and so forth.

You would be better served focusing attention on engines that have the best chance to run on a mainline such as NKP 765 or SP 4449 which have a proven track record in recent times. I'm not saying ignore engines like 6218 but realistically speaking best thing to do with those is to get them under cover to at least slow down the deterioration from weather - even a roof with no sides would be an improvement. This way if conditions change in the future to permit restoration to operation you have a better starting point.

Another thought for you - may be better off instead of restoring 6218 to look at a machine such as SP&S 700 since the 700's 1472-day time expired last December. So to get 700 running again would be mainly new boiler tubes and inspection since I believe most everything else is in excellent condition from what I understand. That would entail less time and money than getting 6218 running again - just being realistic here. Add in that 700 is housed under cover connected to live rail so one less issue to consider. Of course the biggest obstacle for 700 coming back to life is the usual suspect - money!

There is no way every single steam engine can (or should be) returned to operation - it's just not a practical dream. Now if you win the lottery and donate the millions to 6218 so it can return to steam then that would be great too! I suggest you focus your dream on one or two steam engines you like and support same - you are a member of FWRHS (NKP 765) so you are already doing this which is good. It is counterproductive to keep saying "let's fire up the xxxx" if you are not going to be actively involved with dollars and/or volunteering your labor. This is where Ross Rowland was very effective - he was able to get corporate sponsorship to make the American Freedom Train a reality as an example. It also helped that Mr. Rowland had friends/contacts at major railroads who supported steam operations so he didn't just say "let's restore the xxxx" - he found ways to make it happen!

I have no big plans for 6218, it's just a dream. In fact, I saw a documentary about 6060's restoration in the 80's, and 6060's caretaker, Harry Home, had trouble getting the project done in time for Expo 86' because the project had to be approved by the Canadian government. I don't know if this is still a thing today though. But the only thing I don't like is that 6218 would have to run with ditchlights if it ran in Canada.

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

Because it could double head with 6060!

Fat chance of THAT happening.

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

Because it could double head with 6060!

Fat chance of THAT happening.

I'm sure that if a CN Mountain type could double head with a Royal Hudson, two stable mates could double head if 6218 operates again.

645 posted:

Is 6218 even on live rail? If 'no' then it needs to be craned/trucked to live rail - or put on a heavy duty flat for transport like the 2100 was moved from Washington state to Ohio in April 2015. So that is obstacle #1 to a restoration.

More realistically the biggest issue for steam is where to run it and getting mainline compatible passenger cars to pull behind same. While quite a few museums have useable passenger cars most aren't qualified for mainline use as I think they need to meet Amtrak compatible specifications. So something like the 1920's open platform Lackawanna coaches at the Illinois Railway Museum (they have seen almost continuous use at IRM since the 1970's but are well maintained) I doubt will be allowed on a mainline carrying passengers these days.

The "easiest" part is actually restoring the engine. There are many engines that are capable of running on the mainline but do to a variety of factors can't so do ranging from CSX's current 'no steam allowed' policy, required minimum insurance coverage and so forth.

You would be better served focusing attention on engines that have the best chance to run on a mainline such as NKP 765 or SP 4449 which have a proven track record in recent times. I'm not saying ignore engines like 6218 but realistically speaking best thing to do with those is to get them under cover to at least slow down the deterioration from weather - even a roof with no sides would be an improvement. This way if conditions change in the future to permit restoration to operation you have a better starting point.

Another thought for you - may be better off instead of restoring 6218 to look at a machine such as SP&S 700 since the 700's 1472-day time expired last December. So to get 700 running again would be mainly new boiler tubes and inspection since I believe most everything else is in excellent condition from what I understand. That would entail less time and money than getting 6218 running again - just being realistic here. Add in that 700 is housed under cover connected to live rail so one less issue to consider. Of course the biggest obstacle for 700 coming back to life is the usual suspect - money!

There is no way every single steam engine can (or should be) returned to operation - it's just not a practical dream. Now if you win the lottery and donate the millions to 6218 so it can return to steam then that would be great too! I suggest you focus your dream on one or two steam engines you like and support same - you are a member of FWRHS (NKP 765) so you are already doing this which is good. It is counterproductive to keep saying "let's fire up the xxxx" if you are not going to be actively involved with dollars and/or volunteering your labor. This is where Ross Rowland was very effective - he was able to get corporate sponsorship to make the American Freedom Train a reality as an example. It also helped that Mr. Rowland had friends/contacts at major railroads who supported steam operations so he didn't just say "let's restore the xxxx" - he found ways to make it happen!

I wish I lived in the 60's when you could ride in a gondola car behind a 4-8-4 at 60 miles per hour. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a restoration project in those days because there were men who worked on these machines every day, and knew them inside and out, and also, insurance and FRA regulations weren't as strict as they are today. 

There was an appeal a few years ago for about $500,000 to give 6218 her first face-lift in years. I think that's all you're going to see in the restoration direction.

http://www.trha.ca/2010/03/for...toration-of-cnr.html

http://fess.dsbn.org/docs/guid...rochure.pdf?sfvrsn=0

I feel the overall climate for steam locomotives in North America is becoming slowly un-friendly. As the knowledge base slowly shrinks, and the corporate boardroom friendliness evaporates, the steamers will slowly be parked. There are bright lights, and we all know them, but in general mainline railroad steam will become a too-expensive, too-bureaucratic, insurance-nightmarish morass.

The possibility of static displays being restored to low pressure steam operation is possible, but there might be an alternative. I think for our future generations to see the BIG steam locomotive experience up close, the Disney / movie effects / engineering interpretation approach is an option. Mechanical restoration and hydraulic operation of key components in animated displays has been done. The Cruquius steam pump museum in the Netherlands is a wonderful example of old steam technology preservation. The engine/pump is fully operational through custom-designed modern hydraulics. The option of full steam restoration wasn't an option, so no operating boilers. I think that's the key to future museum locomotives. No mainline operation, and no live boiler to horrify the insurance executives - but make it alive somehow, and capture the viewer's imagination. Just my $0.02's worth or less.

  Might be a better idea of getting # 6213 operational. Being owned by the City of Toronto, it would be a great tourist ride down to niagara falls and back on weekends.

 Now I have no idea about the current situation with this loco, but it seems to be in an ideal location

Al

albertstrains posted:

 Now I have no idea about the current situation with this loco, but it seems to be in an ideal location

Al

I don't think I'd call a land locked museum in the middle of a metropolitan area ideal.  The costs alone to move it to live rail would be cost prohibitive. 

In 1967 I saw 6218 pulling an excursion train on the old Central Vermont RR from New London, CT to Brattleboro, VT. I chased it locally in my Mom's 65 Plymouth, but once north of Willimantic, CT I let her go...was a hell of a good day indeed.

Bob

In fall 1969, I was going to General Motors Institure in Flint, MI.  I caught the GTW/CN passenger train to Toronto and rode the 6218 on a big triangle trip through Stratford with a stop at St. Thomas' Pinafore Park and an 0-4-0T .  BTW, the real Col. Harlan Sanders of KFC fame rode the business car that day - pretty feeble even then.  The open door baggage car was right behind the semi-vanderbilt tank and after dark, it was magical running back to Toronto at 80 mph.  Great stuff..........

At the very least, put a roof over her and a fence around her and video security. Right now she is way to accessible to vandalism and theft. Then she would be secure for some possible future operational restoration. Locomotives when in use were never left out in the weather when inactive; they were put in roundhouses or engine houses for protection as much as for maintenance. It is folly to put a Steam Locomotive on a plinth out in the weather.

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

Because it could double head with 6060!

6060, would that by chance be the unit that is growing roots into the ground up in Stettler, AB?  

It may seem like a long shot, but that's how most restorations start out. Think about the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society. A couple of guys attending the NKPHTS convention in Fort Wayne in the early 70's got to talking about the 765 on static display and said: "Wouldn't it be great to see this thing operational again?" A little under a decade later, 765 was moving on its own. And where did they restore it? On a small lead track in a small vacant lot, and that's about it.

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Think about the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society. And where did they restore it? On a small lead track in a small vacant lot, and that's about it.

How did they get 765 out of Swinney Park to live rail? Right now that would be CN 6218's biggest obstacle to get an operational restoration started as it is not connected to live rail.

Give me a minute to explain...

Firewood posted:

I feel the overall climate for steam locomotives in North America is becoming slowly un-friendly. As the knowledge base slowly shrinks, and the corporate boardroom friendliness evaporates, the steamers will slowly be parked. There are bright lights, and we all know them, but in general mainline railroad steam will become a too-expensive, too-bureaucratic, insurance-nightmarish morass.

The possibility of static displays being restored to low pressure steam operation is possible, but there might be an alternative. I think for our future generations to see the BIG steam locomotive experience up close, the Disney / movie effects / engineering interpretation approach is an option. Mechanical restoration and hydraulic operation of key components in animated displays has been done. The Cruquius steam pump museum in the Netherlands is a wonderful example of old steam technology preservation. The engine/pump is fully operational through custom-designed modern hydraulics. The option of full steam restoration wasn't an option, so no operating boilers. I think that's the key to future museum locomotives. No mainline operation, and no live boiler to horrify the insurance executives - but make it alive somehow, and capture the viewer's imagination. Just my $0.02's worth or less.

 

Went to see the Zephyr at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, wonderful, takes you back to when it was brand new and an amazing sight to see for everyone. It would have been a spectacular display to have the Santa Fe 2903 parked beside it and "running" in place. I feel that would have been quite the experience for kids of all ages to see those drivers rotating, an imitation fire inside her, and some "Chuffs" during tours. Sadly that is not the case.  

"It's still a sight to behold," Grainger said of the train. "It just seemed like the right project for us, to restore it so new generations can appreciate the train and the story behind it. " http://articles.chicagotribune...ne-art-deco-design/2  

Here's what happened:

There's another mountain   6067  on   display in Capreol  Ontario ... (north of Sudbury) 

We have  6218 in Fort Erie, and 6213  near Toronto Union station.

What  other large steamers are on display in the other provinces? 

Anyone know where 6060 is? 

Firewood's posting shows us the problem in ALL preservation nowadays; Young people experience the world through virtual reality--there is no need to keep real stuff around, just use CGIs to recreate it. Sorry kids, virtual reality is NOTHING like the real thing. For instance, and operating steam locomotive is sight, sound smell, taste even. Even though I had been around steam most of my life, the railroads were logging railroads. I was an adult when I experienced mainline steam in full operation. It was in Redding, CA on the old SP mainline, and the Canadian Royal Hudson was on a good-will tour to southern California. It was late at night and we were at the Redding train station, trackside to see her come through. First was the distant whistle and then you heard the rails sing, and faintly you could hear the exhausts, almost too constant to hear the individual "chuffs" then the headlight appeared, and suddenly a blur of siderods and wheels, a rush of air, thunderous exhaust, a blur of maroon cars with lighted windows, the air rushing around you, and the smell of steam cylinder oil and exhaust gasses, and suddenly you were looking at the tailights and it was gone, but the smell lingered a bit and you were still rocking from all the sounds, lights and motion. That was decades ago, and I can still relive it. No Virtual Reality can substitute for it. If we cannot get the next generations to put down their screens and see reality, the world will be much less of a place to live in.

Well as I always say: "Happy are those who dream dreams and are willing pay the price to make them come true" -Author Unknown-

It has a better chance of being restored to operation than these GG1's

 

If a useless defiant brat can receive a quarter of a million dollars on the Maury show to rehabilitate themselves, than I am sure you can start a go fund me page and receive a bit of that to put a roof over her head!

Those pictures are so sad! The GG1 is an Iconic locomotive, granted, not steam, and requires canterary to operate: there's the first problem, an electric locomotive is only part of the powering system, it requires outside power sources, that provide power of the type and voltage that is compatible! That's the first problem, the second problem is that NONE survive intact. ALL have had their main transformers removed. Also, ALL were used for many millions of miles, no "low mileage cream-puffs" out there, as some Steam Locomotives were (are?). All have badly cracked frames. Not saying it can't happen, but what you'll see is basically a reconstruction with modern electrical components underneath--in car parlance, a "Resto-Rod." Still would be something to see one of these running at speed again. This was somewhat and "apples & oranges" comparision, the one thing they both share is that a restoration requires bank-vaults of money.

BobbyD posted:

Firewood

Went to see the Zephyr at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, wonderful, takes you back to when it was brand new and an amazing sight to see for everyone. It would have been a spectacular display to have the Santa Fe 2903 parked beside it and "running" in place. I feel that would have been quite the experience for kids of all ages to see those drivers rotating, an imitation fire inside her, and some "Chuffs" during tours. Sadly that is not the case.  

"It's still a sight to behold," Grainger said of the train. "It just seemed like the right project for us, to restore it so new generations can appreciate the train and the story behind it. " http://articles.chicagotribune...ne-art-deco-design/2  

When 2903 was at MSI, there once was a button to push to get the drivers to rotate one revolution. 

Rusty

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

Because it could double head with 6060!

Jerry Jacobson's 6325 hasn't been run since 2004, and since JJ doesn't own a railroad anymore, he doesn't have a place to run either.

Unfortunately, management at THF has changed their focus. I doubt that the current managers have any interest in a GG1. Annually THF has sponsored the "Old Car Festival" a unique experience for both car owners and visitors. This year the festival has changed dramatically. Ask any antique car owner or club about this, if you doubt me. We are of the opinion the change is not good, nor conducive to history preservation, especially live interpretive history. As for Funding, THF has to find money to operate, just like any other museum. The bigger the museum, the more money needed. I imagine that even the Smithsonian has to beg congress for enough funding to operate.

Steamer posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, why bother when JJJ has GTW 6325 in his collection, inside the Age of Steam Roundhouse.

Because it could double head with 6060!

Jerry Jacobson's 6325 hasn't been run since 2004, and since JJ doesn't own a railroad anymore, he doesn't have a place to run either.

THAT is not really true. As part of the sale of the Ohio Central Railroad, JJJ does indeed have a place to run any of his operational steam locomotives. He might NOT be able/allowed to operate passenger excursions, but he can go out and haul freight.

you're right about that. but, can't sell tickets to paying passengers on a freight.

Steamer posted:

you're right about that. but, can't sell tickets to paying passengers on a freight.

So what? Jerry Joe doesn't NEED passengers to operate his steam locomotives. Nothing more fun than hauling a good sized freight train with a steam locomotive, and maybe doing some pick-ups and set-outs enroute. We don't need no stinking passengers!

some people don't see the forest for the trees....

Steamer posted:

some people don't see the forest for the trees....

So,,,,,you think that JJJ actually needs the revenue from passenger tickets?

I know threads get "off track" often, but it seems like this one is almost diverted onto a siding--or at least a branch line!

nope

Rusty Traque posted:

BobbyD posted:

Firewood

Went to see the Zephyr at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, wonderful, takes you back to when it was brand new and an amazing sight to see for everyone. It would have been a spectacular display to have the Santa Fe 2903 parked beside it and "running" in place. I feel that would have been quite the experience for kids of all ages to see those drivers rotating, an imitation fire inside her, and some "Chuffs" during tours. Sadly that is not the case.  

"It's still a sight to behold," Grainger said of the train. "It just seemed like the right project for us, to restore it so new generations can appreciate the train and the story behind it. " http://articles.chicagotribune...ne-art-deco-design/2  

When 2903 was at MSI, there once was a button to push to get the drivers to rotate one revolution. 

Rusty

Rusty, you are close, but the engine from which the working drive train came from was a C&EI (Chicago & Eastern Illinois) Atlantic 4-4-2. Your memory is correct in that you could push a button and view the moving components of the drive, pretty cool actually.

However, this display was recently sold at auction to an unknown (to me) buyer. I would like to know where it wound up. It would be nice if it wound up at IRM, but I suspect we would have heard if that was the case.

If you do any digging and find the new owner please share with us

Charlie

Charlie posted:Rusty, you are close, but the engine from which the working drive train came from was a C&EI (Chicago & Eastern Illinois) Atlantic 4-4-2. Your memory is correct in that you could push a button and view the moving components of the drive, pretty cool actually.  However, this display was recently sold at auction to an unknown (to me) buyer. I would like to know where it wound up. It would be nice if it wound up at IRM, but I suspect we would have heard if that was the case.

If you do any digging and find the new owner please share with us

Charlie

I believe it went to the B&O RR Museum.

Charlie posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

BobbyD posted:

Firewood

Went to see the Zephyr at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, wonderful, takes you back to when it was brand new and an amazing sight to see for everyone. It would have been a spectacular display to have the Santa Fe 2903 parked beside it and "running" in place. I feel that would have been quite the experience for kids of all ages to see those drivers rotating, an imitation fire inside her, and some "Chuffs" during tours. Sadly that is not the case.  

"It's still a sight to behold," Grainger said of the train. "It just seemed like the right project for us, to restore it so new generations can appreciate the train and the story behind it. " http://articles.chicagotribune...ne-art-deco-design/2  

When 2903 was at MSI, there once was a button to push to get the drivers to rotate one revolution. 

Rusty

Rusty, you are close, but the engine from which the working drive train came from was a C&EI (Chicago & Eastern Illinois) Atlantic 4-4-2. Your memory is correct in that you could push a button and view the moving components of the drive, pretty cool actually.

However, this display was recently sold at auction to an unknown (to me) buyer. I would like to know where it wound up. It would be nice if it wound up at IRM, but I suspect we would have heard if that was the case.

If you do any digging and find the new owner please share with us

Charlie

Nope, there was a button to run a motor to move the drivers on the 2903.  I recall pressing it several times just to watch things move. 

This was WAAAAY back in the 1970's.  I was there with a contractor friend (checking pigeon traps) before the museum opened for the day, we spent a good half hour hanging around the 2903.

Rusty

I remember the 2903 outside at the museum but I don't remember it's drivers being able to turn.