C&O Berkshire

The C&O had "Kanawha" class locomotives, and they all had the headlight mounted down low. However, subsidiary PM had center mounted headlights on the smokebox front.

Didn't know the C&O had any Berkshires, I thought they just had 2-8-4 Kanawhas?  I

am thinking there is one sitting in a city park in Washington Court House?, Ohio, with

a low mounted headlight.

since when is a 2=8-4 not a Berkshire wheel arrangement?

Since they were on the C&O.

And don't try calling a Richmond Fredricksburg & Potomac 4-8-4 a "Northern..."

Rusty

Is that what the whyte wheel arrangement calls a 2-8-4,  no it does not it is a Berkshire type and so is a 4-8-4 a northern type

How about the Milwaukee road not having any hudsons as they where Baltics.  Horse feathers they are what general terminology such as whytes classifications name calls them.  If you did not know that the Milwaukee called hudsons Baltics then you would not know what a Baltic was.

True, White gives the general classification, but the railroads were not bound to it. 

They could call locomotives whatever they pleased, and it was at the C&O's pleasure to call a 2-8-4 a Kanawha and a 4-8-4 a Greenbriar.  Just as C&O modelers and historians will.

Just as the RF&P calling a 4-8-4 a General, the Milwaukee calling a 4-6-4 a Baltic and the CB&Q calling a 2-10-4 a Colorado.

Rusty

The wheel arrangement is the same - according to the White system - but railroads gave them different names. With so few operating and Class 1 railroads merged into UP, BNSF, CSX, NS, CP & CN, it's hard to keep track of those names. The UP classified all of the magnificent 800-series 4-8-4's as FEF-1, FEF-2, and FEF-3. Technically, they were identified by class, not by name.

Modern 4-8-4's were used from coast to coast. They had at least 7 names.

Come to think of it, the C&O acquired some Berkshires with centered headlights through a merger wth the Pere Marquette. No. 1225 is the sole operating example. It is possible to find photos of Pere Marquette Berkshires with their tenders lettered CHESAPEAKE & OHIO.

It takes a lot of research and conversations with railfans to get a handle on all this.

Just so we're all on the same switch list here, the word "Kanawha" is pronounced "kuh-NAW." The C&O Kanawhas were almost identical to the NKP, PM and Erie Berks. The designs all came out of the same Van Sweringen brothers Advisory Mechanical Committee.

Exactly!!!

The SP men didn't call them "Daylights" either, but "4400s". The list goes on and on and on.

The Chessie 2-8-4s were frequently called Big Mikes, most likely because they were 

bigger than the K2 and 3 Mikados,  ...or mebby not !   

Regarding that Milwaukee Road "Baltics" naming assertion, I believe that name was applied to a potential Milw order for 4-6-4's that would have preceeded the NYC order. That order was cancelled, due to the Milwaukee's financial difficulties. The first CMStP&P order for 4-6-4's was delivered in 1930, well after the name Hudson was more or less universal for the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement. Suspect the CMStP&P fell in line with other railroads and called their 4-6-4's Hudsons.

The most distinctive obvious physical difference between the C&O berks (kanawhas) vs the Pere Marquette (and for that matter New York, Chicago & St. Louis) berks was the placement of the steam and sand domes.  Kanawahas had the sand box forward of the steam dome whereas the other were reversed. 

It is reported that 39 PM berks were part of the merger with C&O.  All were renumbered to 2685-2699, 2650-2661, and 2670-2681.  But only the 2685-2699 were re-lettered to C&O.  Apparently there was a stipulation in the merger that equipment NOT yet paid for had to remain in PM livery.  And based on pictures in a booklet I have on C&O K-4's the headlights were NOT relocated.

Ron

IIRC, the very last PM Berks did have the sand dome up front....where it belongs !

Never seen a PM Berk, or any other PM loco reworked after C&O, except for paint.

I have always liked the berkshire type.I looked at pictures about trains in a book.The very last page was a picture.Of a locomotive that sat in a park for a while.People got together and fixed her up.Any way their were pictures of this locomotive pulling modern day boxcars.It was on aTP&Wrailroad.Anyway one picture was takin at sunset.You could see the outline of the train.That was it for me I was hooked.Seeing that locomotive pulling boxcars.I thought to myself my grand parents got to see them in action.

Pretty difficult to read & understand your post, but the part about the TP&W boxcars, would have been the freight break-in operations with NKP 765 on the TP&W RR, back in 1980.

I like this photo....http://www.flickr.com/photos/29865095@N00/2708444962/

Chris

C&O 2716 was used in freight service sometime after her restoration from SRR service, with the Chessie appliances back in place. This was out in Hoosier country, IIRC.  Often wondered why we didn't see more 2700s back in service with so many of 'em around. 

Your statement intrigued me.  Since I only have the PM 1225 plus extra PE tender have not bought any historical materials.  But the local toy train shop still had a book on the PM.  And sure enough the last twelve in 44 were delivered with the sand box forward of the steam dome.

Ron 

C&O 2716 was leased by the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society and restored in 1996. She pulled freight as a ferry/break in run on the TP&W to Logansport, Indiana for the "Iron Horse Festival". Once at the festival she pulled some public trips on that weekend. After these trips, the engine was denied an extension on flues by the FRA and needed some firebox work. The Fort Wayne group decided that if it was going to put that kind of money into a steam locomotive then it was going to put the money into the 765!

"Just so we're all on the same switch list here, the word '"Kanawha"' is pronounced '"kuh-NAW."'"

Until you get to Virginia, then it's pronounced "kuh-na-wha".  I'm not saying one way is right or wrong [refer to Beaufort (Beau-fort) in NC and Beaufort (BU-fort) in SC].  Also, the RF&P 4-8-4s could have been Generals, Governors, or Statesmen.

Let's shake this whole conversation up.  I am looking at a C&O motive power diagram sheet (page 97) of the K-4 Class 2700-2739 and in the upper right hand corner the following title is printed:  "BERKSHIRE TYPE" and no mention anywhere of "Kanawha"..  Apparently the Motive Power Dept. didn't get the memo from the Public Relations Dept.

I've collected all kinds of things from all of the AMC Berkshires for 40 years and I've been sitting on this for much of that time.  Some of my side activities have put proper front number plates on many of the remaining C&O 2700's and NKP 700's.

The drawing looks to be authentic and unaltered.  It is an identical format and lettering style as the NKP S-class locomotive diagrams so these must have originated prior to the NKP going independent in 1947 with the breakup of the Van Swerigan roads and the termination of the Advisory Mechanical Committee.

I'll have to get some help on how to scan this diagram and post it here....

BTW, don't miss the chance to ride the Wabash Cannonball behind the NKP 765 the last weekend of October.  First public trip on this freight-only route in twenty years.

The locomotive diagrams were updated every few years so the change in terminology could have occurred as some point.  The version I am citing is dated Feb. 1952.