C&O 614 Traveling At 90 MPH! (Read It And Weep)

I remember all those awesome runs with #614 at speed and every run was spectacular. Unfortunately they probably will never happen again.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

I remember all those awesome runs with #614 at speed and every run was spectacular. Unfortunately they probably will never happen again.

People didn't think the 611 would run again but it's spring schedule was just announced...

I hope 614 will return to steam one day, although unlikely, I'd love to see it speeding along the New River or stomping up Sand Patch or 17 mile on the B&O! 

Nice video.  Yes its a shame there is no place to run it right now... plus I believe all the cars were auctioned off?

Thanks for linking to my original video on my YouTube channel "YankinGa". I am quite proud of that footage.

Kelly is correct. I ran a stopwatch on the train at the time and Paul Nichini and Ross Roland always had her well within the 79 MPH legal limit.

Those guys were not about to risk everything by running 90 MPH on a 79 MPH railroad in the 1990s, especially on such a high profile operation. At no time did that train ever do 90 MPH during that series of trips.

I chased and filmed most of the runs.  I rode three trips, making sound recordings of two of them on 6-8-97 and 10-26-97.

The other trip I rode was on 10-27-96, the day O. Winston Link was aboard. The 614 wore a N&W hooter in his honor. I took nothing with me that day but a radio scanner. I wanted to experience one trip without looking through a viewfinder or worrying about film and recording levels.

BTW, on those last two shots the camera was close to the track on a tripod but I assure you I was nowhere near it when the train passed. I started the recording early and walked well away from the track as 614 approached.

Mister Speaker, I wish to revise and extend my remarks.

I missed the Fall 1998 series of excursions due to a herniated disc, which severely limited my mobility.

Wow!

And not a dismal in sight....

Thank you that was

great!

Railfan Brody posted:

It was suspected that C&O 614 touched 90 mph during the Erie Limited trips with Ross Rowland at the throttle, and over 20 cars behind him. You can tell from the pace of the exhaust (which sounds like a machine gun), and apparently, a former New York Central employee was on the train and clocked the time between mileposts. If this is wrong, let me know.

 

OK, you are officially notified. NOT 90 MPH!!!!!!    More like 79 MPH, the legal max speed in that territory.

614 could sure blurr the rods.

Well, they had only 72 inch diameter drive wheels, so just like N&W #600 (70 inch diameter drive wheels), the running gear is REALLY a blur at speeds well above 65 MPH.

Now, for REALLY blurred running gear, NKP 765 with 69" diameter drive wheels REALLY are blurred at speeds approaching 79 MPH.

This post has inspired me to publish the last of my C&O 614 video on YouTube from the fall trips in 1997.

The opening shot is at Fair Lawn, NJ on October 11, 1997.

Unfortunately the engine suffered a piston ring failure further on up the line, leaving her lame on the fireman's side.

The protect diesels were summoned and we see them pulling the 614 and train across Moodna Viaduct.

Next 614 limps into the Campbell Hall yard. Note the steam blowing past the piston and up the stack on her left side.

A Conrail local freight arrives behind SD40-2 6493 as 614 is getting in the clear.

Once the freight is out of the way we see the crew preparing to remove the running board steps and cylinder head to pull the piston for repair.

They worked all afternoon and late into the night and the engine made it back to Hoboken in the early morning and pulled the train on Sunday, October 12.

I had left and wrongly assumed that Sunday's trip would be behind diesels. Being that it was an hour and a half drive, plus gas and tolls, from my home in Bethpage, NY to the nearest point where I could intercept and begin to chase the train, I took a pass. I wish I would have had better intel back then. Oh well.

The last two shots are at Black Rock Cut and Harriman, NY on Saturday October 18, 1997.

Incidently, the speed of the train in the Fair Lawn shot is about 51 MPH.

Eighteen 85' cars pass by in 20.5 seconds.

That's 1530 ft / 20.5 seconds = 74.6 feet per second.

74.6 fps divided by 1.4667 fps = 50.9 MPH

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

It was suspected that C&O 614 touched 90 mph during the Erie Limited trips with Ross Rowland at the throttle, and over 20 cars behind him. You can tell from the pace of the exhaust (which sounds like a machine gun), and apparently, a former New York Central employee was on the train and clocked the time between mileposts. If this is wrong, let me know.

 

OK, you are officially notified. NOT 90 MPH!!!!!!    More like 79 MPH, the legal max speed in that territory.

Got it!

Thank You!

Nick Chillianis posted:

This post has inspired me to publish the last of my C&O 614 video on YouTube from the fall trips in 1997.

 

The opening shot is at Fair Lawn, NJ on October 11, 1997.

Unfortunately the engine suffered a piston ring failure further on up the line, leaving her lame on the fireman's side.

The protect diesels were summoned and we see them pulling the 614 and train across Moodna Viaduct.

Next 614 limps into the Campbell Hall yard. Note the steam blowing past the piston and up the stack on her left side.

A Conrail local freight arrives behind SD40-2 6493 as 614 is getting in the clear.

Once the freight is out of the way we see the crew preparing to remove the running board steps and cylinder head to pull the piston for repair.

They worked all afternoon and late into the night and the engine made it back to Hoboken in the early morning and pulled the train on Sunday, October 12.

I had left and wrongly assumed that Sunday's trip would be behind diesels. Being that it was an hour and a half drive, plus gas and tolls, from my home in Bethpage, NY to the nearest point where I could intercept and begin to chase the train, I took a pass. I wish I would have had better intel back then. Oh well.

The last two shots are at Black Rock Cut and Harriman, NY on Saturday October 18, 1997.

 

Incidently, the speed of the train in the Fair Lawn shot is about 51 MPH.

Eighteen 85' cars pass by in 20.5 seconds.

That's 1530 ft / 20.5 seconds = 74.6 feet per second.

74.6 fps divided by 1.4667 fps = 50.9 MPH

 

 

 

 

 

Nice video! I think it's funny how the crew gathers around the locomotives like EMT's, because that's basically the same situation but with an iron horse instead of a human being. 

I also enjoyed the video of 765 crossing the viaduct, which is one of only two videos I've seen of that excursion. Didn't that particular excursion have a disastrous schedule?

Railfan Brody posted:

Nice video! I think it's funny how the crew gathers around the locomotives like EMT's, because that's basically the same situation but with an iron horse instead of a human being. 

I also enjoyed the video of 765 crossing the viaduct, which is one of only two videos I've seen of that excursion. Didn't that particular excursion have a disastrous schedule?

I don't recall anything special about that 765 trip.  I only took those two shots and left for home because of some family event later that day.

The 1988 NRHS convention trip with 765 from Bound Brook, NJ to Reading via Philly and return via Allentown and Pattenburg was a horrifically long trip that just kept running later and later. I know because I rode it.  I'm sure Mr. Melvin has some "fond" memories of the "Joisey" convention.

That whole "Garden State in '88" convention was a textbook lesson in how not to run an NRHS convention.

The entire "Garden State in '88" NRHS convention was a disaster from start to finish.

Don't get me started...  

From what I recall one of the issues in "88" early on was a load of bad coal before the #765 arrived in the garden state.

That bad load of coal out of Buffalo was just the first in a long line of problems with this fiasco. These were, without a doubt, the most poorly organized trips that FWRHS was ever involved in.

They say you learn from your mistakes. We learned a full encyclopedia's worth of lessons on these runs.

I would love for 765 to run the route 614 ran on, but would it have enough coal to make the run? I know that 614 had an issue with a lack of coal, even with an extended tender. But 765 couldn't wear the topper because it wouldn't clear the wires or Bergen Tunnel.

Railfan Brody posted:

I would love for 765 to run the route 614 ran on, but would it have enough coal to make the run? I know that 614 had an issue with a lack of coal, even with an extended tender.

Remember that coal and water usage is VERY dependent on the person operating the locomotive!

But 765 couldn't wear the topper because it wouldn't clear the wires or Bergen Tunnel.

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

I would love for 765 to run the route 614 ran on, but would it have enough coal to make the run? I know that 614 had an issue with a lack of coal, even with an extended tender.

Remember that coal and water usage is VERY dependent on the person operating the locomotive!

But 765 couldn't wear the topper because it wouldn't clear the wires or Bergen Tunnel.

 

Yes, and there are some steep grades, including the grade at Sloatsburg and the one at Otisville. Maybe 765 could run with NS 1068, the Erie heritage unit. But after seeing a U-Boat barely clear the roof of Bergen Tunnel, I don't know if the big SD70ACe would fit, and transit diesels would taint the train's appearance.

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Maybe 765 could run with NS 1068, the Erie heritage unit. But after seeing a U-Boat barely clear the roof of Bergen Tunnel, I don't know if the big SD70ACe would fit, and transit diesels would taint the train's appearance.

The typical steam excursion consist is already "tainted" far as appearance goes. The first class cars are a mix of colors and stainless steel. Back in coach it is usually leased cars and/or commuter rolling stock. Sometimes Amtrak equipment is used too. There is a SP 4449 excursion being run later this year and the coaches are to be Amfleet. Last time I checked Amfleet never was owned by the old Southern Pacific Lines plus they came along well after 4449's revenue service (as opposed to excursion service) so it is a real "never was" mix of eras far as authenticity goes. So having a NJT diesel or two along doesn't really make a difference far as appearance goes if a NKP 765 excursion was to operate out of Hoboken especially if the coaches would be NJT Comets.

I'm not talking about passenger cars. It's nice when they match the locomotive, but that's a rare occurrence in most cases. Quite frankly, I don't care what the passenger cars look like, as long as there is enough to sell a decent amount of tickets, and keep passengers happy.  

I'm saying that it would be better for 765 to run with the Erie heritage unit, rather than two NJT GP40's. 765 ran with the PRR and Conrail units on the Altoona trips because those locomotives were historically "at home." The Erie unit would be "at home" in the Hoboken/Port Jervis area.

Nick Chillianis posted:

I don't recall anything special about that 765 trip.  I only took those two shots and left for home because of some family event later that day.

The 1988 NRHS convention trip with 765 from Bound Brook, NJ to Reading via Philly and return via Allentown and Pattenburg was a horrifically long trip that just kept running later and later. I know because I rode it.  I'm sure Mr. Melvin has some "fond" memories of the "Joisey" convention.

That whole "Garden State in '88" convention was a textbook lesson in how not to run an NRHS convention.

 

Why did 765 go out of the way so far instead of using the NEC to get to Philly. I know NJT runs trains to 30th street station. Seems kind of pointless going so far out of the way, and I've seen videos, and it seemed like they didn't exceed 40 mph.

OGR Webmaster posted:

The entire "Garden State in '88" NRHS convention was a disaster from start to finish.

Don't get me started...  

I remember you saying something like "I spent a year in New Jersey in one week."

Yeah aside from Black River & Western, NJ is not a welcoming place to steam excursions.. 

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Nick Chillianis posted:

The 1988 NRHS convention trip with 765 from Bound Brook, NJ to Reading via Philly and return via Allentown and Pattenburg was a horrifically long trip that just kept running later and later. I know because I rode it.  I'm sure Mr. Melvin has some "fond" memories of the "Joisey" convention.

Why did 765 go out of the way so far instead of using the NEC to get to Philly. I know NJT runs trains to 30th street station. Seems kind of pointless going so far out of the way, and I've seen videos, and it seemed like they didn't exceed 40 mph.

Amtrak owns the NEC and I believe other than the American Freedom Train tour of 1975-1976 steam has not operated on it. Also have to get to Bound Brook from the NEC so the 765 would have to be turned - no wye exists at the connection at Hunter just south of Newark from the NEC to the ex-Lehigh Valley which NJT Raritan Valley Line trains use.

Also in 1988 NJT did not operate any revenue service into Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. You must remember some of the routes in use by NJ Transit today did not necessarily exist in the past - a prime example would be Raritan to Hoboken service as the Secaucus Transfer did not exist back then to provide a direct connection from the NEC to the ex-DL&W side of NJT.

The Atlantic City Line only saw service provided by Amtrak from 30th Street Station at first. NJ Transit only operated from Lindenwold, NJ (where passengers had to transfer to/from the PATCO high speed rail line to get to center city Philadelphia) to Atlantic City in the early years of the AC Line's rebirth. When Amtrak decided to stop operating to Atlantic City after that NJ Transit started running revenue trains to 30th Street Station. One cannot ride a NJT train from Trenton to Philadelphia as a ticketed passenger* - have to transfer to SEPTA or Amtrak. Of course NJT moves AC Line equipment as non-revenue deadhead moves between Philadelphia and Trenton / points north.

*While it operated one could ride NJ Transit's "Atlantic City Express" service direct from New York City to Atlantic City but those trains did not operate to 30th Street Station - they switched from the NEC to the AC Line at Frankford Junction. This service was subsidized by the casinos. For more information see this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...City_Express_Service

Tell me about it! I remember on the U34ch video, during the cab ride, the Bergen County line passed under the NEC and the NJ Turnpike. I didn't think much of it, until I was on Google Maps and found Syracuse Junction.

Maybe a steam excursion out of New York Penn Station or even Grand Central could be possible in the future!

Railfan Brody posted:

Maybe a steam excursion out of New York Penn Station or even Grand Central could be possible in the future!

Didn't New York City pass some kind of ordnance/law, way back in the early 20th Century, that outlaws external and internal combustion RR locomotives in either of those stations?

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Maybe a steam excursion out of New York Penn Station or even Grand Central could be possible in the future!

Didn't New York City pass some kind of ordnance/law, way back in the early 20th Century, that outlaws external and internal combustion RR locomotives in either of those stations?

Yes. I was just making a joke. 

Steam locomotive belching smoke into over a mile of tunnels filled with people. That's a lawsuit just waiting to happen.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Yeah aside from Black River & Western, NJ is not a welcoming place to steam excursions.. 

Maybe you should include NJT who hosted all of the #614 steam excursions.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Yeah aside from Black River & Western, NJ is not a welcoming place to steam excursions.. 

Maybe you should include NJT who hosted all of the #614 steam excursions.

Yes, and doesn't the New Hope and Iveyland operate steam too? 

Railfan Brody posted:

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Nick Chillianis posted:

The 1988 NRHS convention trip with 765 from Bound Brook, NJ to Reading via Philly and return via Allentown and Pattenburg was a horrifically long trip that just kept running later and later. I know because I rode it.  I'm sure Mr. Melvin has some "fond" memories of the "Joisey" convention.

Why did 765 go out of the way so far instead of using the NEC to get to Philly. I know NJT runs trains to 30th street station. Seems kind of pointless going so far out of the way, and I've seen videos, and it seemed like they didn't exceed 40 mph.

Amtrak owns the NEC and I believe other than the American Freedom Train tour of 1975-1976 steam has not operated on it. Also have to get to Bound Brook from the NEC so the 765 would have to be turned - no wye exists at the connection at Hunter just south of Newark from the NEC to the ex-Lehigh Valley which NJT Raritan Valley Line trains use.

Also in 1988 NJT did not operate any revenue service into Philadelphia's 30th Street Station. You must remember some of the routes in use by NJ Transit today did not necessarily exist in the past - a prime example would be Raritan to Hoboken service as the Secaucus Transfer did not exist back then to provide a direct connection from the NEC to the ex-DL&W side of NJT.

The Atlantic City Line only saw service provided by Amtrak from 30th Street Station at first. NJ Transit only operated from Lindenwold, NJ (where passengers had to transfer to/from the PATCO high speed rail line to get to center city Philadelphia) to Atlantic City in the early years of the AC Line's rebirth. When Amtrak decided to stop operating to Atlantic City after that NJ Transit started running revenue trains to 30th Street Station. One cannot ride a NJT train from Trenton to Philadelphia as a ticketed passenger* - have to transfer to SEPTA or Amtrak. Of course NJT moves AC Line equipment as non-revenue deadhead moves between Philadelphia and Trenton / points north.

*While it operated one could ride NJ Transit's "Atlantic City Express" service direct from New York City to Atlantic City but those trains did not operate to 30th Street Station - they switched from the NEC to the AC Line at Frankford Junction. This service was subsidized by the casinos. For more information see this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...City_Express_Service

Tell me about it! I remember on the U34ch video, during the cab ride, the Bergen County line passed under the NEC and the NJ Turnpike. I didn't think much of it, until I was on Google Maps and found Syracuse Junction.

Maybe a steam excursion out of New York Penn Station or even Grand Central could be possible in the future!

I think you mean Secaucus Junction. 

Anyway, the trip was routed over Reading lines from Bound Brook to Reading and sort of skirted Philadelphia proper to the northeast, passing from the (present day) CSX Trenton Line to the NS Harrisburg Line via CP-Laurel Hill, the Reading Schuylkill Viaduct and CP-Falls. This was an all-Conrail freight-only route, except for the commuter section between West Trenton and Wayne Junction.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Yeah aside from Black River & Western, NJ is not a welcoming place to steam excursions.. 

Do they still run steam excursions out of Philipsburg?

Could a steam locomotive run past a high level platform without damaging itself and/or the platform?

The NY Penn and Grand Central were jokes. I understand the whole electric only rule with both.

In Penn Station though, why are there third rails when there are already catenaries?

Railfan Brody posted:

Could a steam locomotive run past a high level platform without damaging itself and/or the platform?

The Central Railroad of New Jersey did it for decades.

The NY Penn and Grand Central were jokes. I understand the whole electric only rule with both.

Then maybe you could have indicated that?

In Penn Station though, why are there third rails when there are already catenaries?

Lots of 3rd rail powered commuter trains.

 

Maybe some of the trains that pass through there do not have/use pantographs.

Hot Water posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

Could a steam locomotive run past a high level platform without damaging itself and/or the platform?

The Central Railroad of New Jersey did it for decades.

The NY Penn and Grand Central were jokes. I understand the whole electric only rule with both.

Then maybe you could have indicated that?

I did, shortly after I made the post.

In Penn Station though, why are there third rails when there are already catenaries?

Lots of 3rd rail powered commuter trains.

LIRR?

 

 

The only steam operations in NJ are BR&W and Bel-Del, and no NS would not allow them to operate on their busy freight lines. NS made an exception with 611. But, 611 seems to on;y be operating in southern Virginia and northern North Carolina this year, so for mainline steam in the East, a long drive or Amtrak ride is in order for those living north of Washington DC. No steam can presently operate between Wash DC and Philly, only railroads are CSX and Amtrak. You could take Amtrak to Lynchburg, Sailsbury, NC or Greensboro, NC for the 611 excursions. There has been very little mainline steam excursions in PA 1990's and up, except for the Reading and Northern 425 trips, and Steamtown when they ran steam on the main. Right now? Only operating steam in PA is Strasburg, RBMN (113 and 425 soon to be 2102 as well), Steamtown's yard shuttles with #26, Everett, and maybe Pioneer Tunnel Lokie. New Hope 40 has been down for repairs for the past several years. EBT shut down. New York State is worse. All they have is Arcade and Attica. Essex, CT has the Valley Railroad steam train though, and WMSR in Cumberland will have C&O 1309 running soon. Another big loss in the steam world was when Jerry Jacobson sold the Ohio Central to Genesee and Wyoming, who seem to be against train excursions on their tracks for liability reasons. They might very well kill the P&W's excursion program now that they took over that line. It seems that certain freight railroads do not want to deal with passengers or the general public on their property, too much risk and liability. New England is another area unfriendly to steam excursions, or even diesel excursions, I heard that Pan Am is very anti excursion, and soon P&W might be as well under its new owner. Valley Railroad in Essex, CT is currently the only place to ride steam anywhere in New England. Conway Scenic's lone steam locomotive is down for it's required teardown so all trains are diesel right now.

For the benefit of all you youngsters, here is some info on a couple of PRR fantrips back in the Middle Ages.  A GG1 hauled the train to the former "Manhattan Transfer" station site in Harrison where a K4 was attached.   (This was the original transfer point to/from The Hudson & Manhattan (now PATH) which originally terminated at a station north of today's Newark Penn.   Steam was serviced at the Meadows terminal in South  Kearney, current site of the PATH maintenance facility. 

Following dieselization of West Shore, Lackawanna, Erie and CNJ, the closest steam  operated to New York was the Pennsy's Exchange Place depot in Jersey City.  The last steam run was a commuter nicknamed "The Broker" which ran to/from  Bay Head.