C&O H7 #1578 and H7 #1580

N&W posted:

Lionel offered the C&O H7 engines of which I own #1578 and #1580. In researching the service life of these engines I discovered that the C&O leased 30 H7 engines to the UP. The UP was not pleased with the engines but I cannot find any info on the disposition of same.

These locomotives were essentially "forced" on the UP by the War Production Board, during WWII. As soon as the war was over, and freight traffic levels returned to normal, the UP sidelined the former C&O "Simple Simons", and promptly sold most of the huge tenders to the SP for conversion to oil burning, while the engines were sold for scrap.

Were H7 engines #1578 and #1580 in the group of thirty H7's leased to the UP? If they were not leased to the UP when did the C&O retire/scrap these? If they were leased to the UP is there any info on when they were scrapped?  Many thanks.

You might try the site Utah Rails, as they have a welsh of information about UP.

Thanks HOT Water......I'll check Utah Rails but what I'm trying to find out are the built and scrapped dates to determine the active era on the C&O.  

N&W posted:

Thanks HOT Water......I'll check Utah Rails but what I'm trying to find out are the built and scrapped dates to determine the active era on the C&O.  

The C&O Historical Society should have the build dates of the H7 class 2-8-8-2 locomotives, they then went to the UP, probably in 1942 or 1943, and then the UP sold the engines for scrap after 1946 or so.

I'm pretty sure that the Utah Rails site would have the scrap dates.

NJ International published a book Chesapeake and Ohio H7 Series by Thomas Dixon around 1980. If you can find a copy it contains detailed information of the development of the H7, their use, and ultimate dispositions by engine.

The 30 engines were sold to the UP in 1945 because the UP needed extra war time power and with the recent deliveries of the H8 Alleghenys and K4 Kanawhas the C&O didn't really need them. The H7's weren't a fit for the UP because they were designed for slow coal drags, not the higher speed service needed on the UP. Also the H7's were worn out  with steam leaks and cracked frames. UP scrapped all of them in 1947.

3 H7's went to the RF&P in 1943 for hump service in Richmond, Va. These were scrapped in 1949.

After the war only 11 H7's were left on the C&O. These were used in hump service, pushers, and coal drags between Richmond and Newport News.

As far as the Lionel models go, the 1580 is right for its postwar configuration with the 16,000 gallon Vanderbilt tender and post 1930 lettering.  The 1578 lost its 16,000 gallon tender in 1930, replaced by a 21,000 gallon rectangular tender, and then a 12,000 gallon Vanderbilt (4 wheel trucks) postwar. So the Lionel 1578 isn't quite correct with the tender they supplied. Lionel should have offered a C&O version with the rectangular tender as used on the UP version as it is a C&O tender and was common on the H7's after 1930.

Ken

Gentlemen,

Many thanks. I also came across this data which addresses service dates. This leads me to believe the C&O might have kept the H7a series on the property with the other H7's leased to the UP   http://www.daveayers.com/Modeling/CnO_Loco_Class.htm

Of the 30 engines that went to the UP, 11 were H7a's.

Of the 11 engines the C&O retained, two were H7's, the rest H7a's. Obviously the C&O kept the ones in the best operating condition whether they were H7's or H7a's.

Ken

Great information....thank you!! Now the $64 question is whether the #1578 and #1580 were among the 11 engines that the C&O kept. 

N&W posted:

Great information....thank you!! Now the $64 question is whether the #1578 and #1580 were among the 11 engines that the C&O kept. 

If you will go to the www.utahrails.net site, and using the "rosters" page, search for the UP 2-8-8-2 class, you well see bu road number exactly which C&O H7a locomotives the UP received. Also, ALL the former C&O H7a locomotives were vacated by the end of 1947.

I just found an image of the #1578 in the Russel, Kentucky yards in 1948 so this one was not in the 1945 group that went to the UP......................I'm guessing this is the 12,000 Vandy on the 4 wheel trucks that Kanawha noted.......now to find the #1580.

"ANOTHER C&O ENGINE #1578 A 2-8-8-2 TAKEN IN THE RUSSELL,KY YARDS IN 1948"

I have the UPHS Locomotive Prototype photo roster volume with the H7s.  I know it lists the previous C&O cab number for each.  I'll check it tonight. And let you know. 

I do know that the UP pulled or scrapped them as soon as they could after the war. I think just about every one if them was stricken from the roster by the end of 1947.

Many thanks......I finally came across an image of #1580 in Toledo, OH from a photo collection labelled 1949 to 1960 so if it is accurate it places the #1580 on the C&O roster well after 1945 transfer date to UP even if the image is dated 1949 but photo collections tend to be inaccurate.......

Many thanks Hot Water!! I found the link you noted: http://utahrails.net/up-steam-....php#up-3570_2-8-8-2  in a section called "War BabieS"

#1578 and #1580 did NOT convey to the UP......

To all that helped many thanks!!

N&W posted:

Great information....thank you!! Now the $64 question is whether the #1578 and #1580 were among the 11 engines that the C&O kept. 

The C&O had these after WW2:

H-7: 1553, 1560

H-7a: 1570, 1572, 1573, 1576, 1578, 1580, 1583, 1584,1588

All retired and scrapped May 1952

 As I said in a previous post, post WW2 the Lionel 1580 is correct with the 16,000 gal Vanderbilt tender. The 1578 is not correct as post WW2 it should have a 12,000 gal Vanderbilt tender

For some low -resolution pictures go to:   https://archives.cohs.org/ . Type in # plus the engine number you are looking for in the search box, ie #1578 or #1580.

Ken