Caterpillar Falls Behind GE in Locomotives Race

I remember reading this article.
IMO, it sounds like a long GE, short CAT type story.

Learn something new everyday.  I didn't know CAT was the one that bought EMD.

It's very hard for any 2-stroke engine, like EMD, to meet emissions standards.
Detroit Diesel has already learned that lesson.

More interested in Lima, Baldwin, and Alco, so also did not realize, or had forgotten, that CAT was the new owner of EMD.  Interesting turn of events given that I think it was a consortium of railroads that went to GE and pleaded with them to provide competition to an EMD monopoly.  Any further comment would be political, about

chicken-little fantasy, government meddling, and its driving all manufacturing out of the country.

So why even mention it?

 

Rusty

its just a cat nap for now meow

Interesting story from the Wall Street Journal.

 

Good reading for us O gauge Railroaders, see main posting, for link to article.

Thanks for posting

 

I thought it was Navistar that got burned with emissions standards, something about they thought they didn't need to add urea (???) and it didn't work, when everybody else said you did?

 

And I didn't know CAT bought EMD, learn something new everyday.

I had also read that article. I learnt at work that this restriction only applies to North American locomotives. Apparently 30% of the locomotives EMD makes are export models that are not affected by the EPA Tier IV requirements. EMD seems to be on track with developing the F125 passenger locomotives for Metrolink that have our Tier IV compliant 4-stroke Caterpillar C175-20 engines. Also freight railroads might be buying excess Tier III locomotives with proven technology from EMD before the Tier IV goes into effect on Jan 1, 2015 & Caterpillar might be seeing lower demand for the subsequent years. According to this article EMD will have a Tier IV freight locomotive by 2017.

These are just my opinion. I don’t work in the rail division. I just love trains & pay close attention to any news related to our locomotive business.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

CAT got hit pretty bad when emissions standards required exhaust particulate filters.

The particulate filter system that CAT used had a regen cycle after XXX hours that forced the vehicle to pull off the road and idle for about 15 min. Many new ambulances were equipped with these engines at the time.

Can you imagine, driving an ambulance to a call or transporting a patient, and being forced to stop because of the exhaust filter?

Yeah, that didn't go over very well.

CAT completely stopped producing engines for over-the-road trucks for a few years. Its only been within the last two years that they began to sell truck engines again.

I thought EMD had switched over to 4-cycle diesel generators in the SD70M2's and SD70ACe's.

The H engine from the SD90MACs & SD89MAC, are 2-cycle engines.  That being the case, I'm even more confused as to why the 12 cylinder H wasn't the one modified for the new, stricter tiers...

The really scary part of the equation is the EPA.  As far as I know, there is NO oversight of that powerful (and growing more so by the year) agency.  The do as they darn well please and the minions must abide.

Don't get me started on them...and their clones in the California Air Resources Board. CARB is one of many reasons I'm working on relocating.

 

When it comes to the EPA, it's high time to marginalize these clowns...individually, and collectively. And the sooner, the better !

Naveen,

You are completely correct.  I was just re-reading the post/replies and realized my error. The H is 4-cycle, the first time I think that EMD ever used something other then a 2-cycle motor.  Thank you for catching that!

Naveen,

You may be correct about those CAT trucks. I've seen them and made the assumption that it was an all CAT engine under the hood. I may have been mistaken.

Re: 2-stroke Diesel engines:
2-stroke Diesel engines do not mix fuel and engine oil the way 2-stroke gasoline engines do.
On a 2-stroke diesel, there are no intake valves. Intake air is blown in thought ports in the cylinder sleeve. When the piston approaches bottom-dead-center, those ports become uncovered, the exhaust valves open, and intake air is blown into the cylinder. When the piston moves up again, it blocks the intake ports, exhaust valves close, and compression begins.
In this fashion, the intake and compression strokes are combined into one stroke. And the power and exhaust strokes are combined into one stroke.
The reason 2-stroke Diesel engines don't do well with emissions controls is because under heavy loading, the intake ports and exhaust valves open before all the fuel is burned during the power stroke. This sends un burned fuel out the exhaust. Now, that fuel does continue to burn when going out the exhaust, but because the combustion process was incomplete, particulates (soot) and oxides of nitrogen (NOX) are increased.
It is possible to clean these engines up but by the time you've done that you've reduced the overall power of these engines that it's no longer worth it.

Like I mentioned earlier, Detroit Diesel, maker of the best and most powerful 2-stroke Diesel engines for over-the-road trucks, for over 60 years, figured this out about 10 years ago. They still make 2-stroke diesels but only as marine engines and generators.
For trucks, everything DD makes is 4-stroke.

Oh yeah...nothin' like the sound of a straight-piped 8V92 Detroit runnin' through the gears.

The EMD 2-Stroke Cycle engine does NOT mix ANYTHING with the #2 diesel fuel! All EMD engines are Direct Injection, i.e. Compression Ignition.

Flash & Hot Water,
Thank you for explaining the workings of the 2-stroke engines. I had only worked on 4-stroke engines until now & assumed that all 2-stroke engines were similar to the leaf blower engines.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

these new 4 stroke diesels just plain suck, they do not have the POWER to climb a hill with 44000 lbs in the trailer compaired to a 2 stroke detroit. my present tractor has a cat C13 with no balls, have to drop 3 gears just to climb a hill to maintain 35mph. 

 

Rich, a detroit 8V92A with straight pipes is nice, BUT a detroit 8V71 or 12V71 with straight pipes is just sweet music rolling down the highway.

I could listen to this all day...

I like me some Detroit 12V71 for sure

OK, how can you "Flex" Tier Three?

I'm with Dominic. What does "flex" mean in this context?

 

Dennis, you wrote a very interesting and informative post. However, you assumed that your audience knows as much as you do and you used the language of your trade. For those of us who are not familiar with the language of your trade, please explain.

Also Tier Four is not just affecting the Railroads.  Trucks and buses also have to deal with T-4.  Houston METRO is going with CNG for the future.  Part of it is because of the issues with T4 equipment.

 

Now, in the late 1970's, there was a small experiment with ATSF and UP to convert some SD45's to Sulzerr prime movers.  SP converted 4 U25B's.  Those did not work.

 

But was there not a CAT conversion back then?  I don't think that worked?  Why?  Has the CAT prime mover improved so that in can stand the RR environment?

Dom,  I noticed your comment indicated the late 1970's, actually the CAT 3500 series was born about 1981 or 2 and the 3600 series a few years later.  Prior to that it would have been D399's for CAT which are slightly smaller than the 3500's  D399's are part of the infamous 6.25" bore families.  Those engine's have been out of production for 25 years but I still get plenty of dealer questions about them.  They will last for ever too

There were three Cat conversions using the 3612 Diesel back in the early 1980's.  C&NW converted an ex BN SD45.  BN converted an SD40-2 (but added SD45 flared radiators), and AT&SF converted an SD45-2.

 

 

 

 

Stuart

 

 

 

 

You still didn't explain what "flex" means!

They make the Locomotive Builders and the Railroad comply with the new emission standards, while there are many men driving around and idling their diesel engine pick-up trucks that spew as much fumes as an old SD40-2 or DASH 8. If these emission standards are to mean anything, every single diesel engine has to have reduced emissions, no matter who built it or operates it.

 

 

Andrew

Not sure if this explains it.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/o...issionfactorsfaq.pdf

 

Flexibility (flex) engines are engines that were produced by engine manufacturers to a less stringent emission standard after a new tier of emission standards goes into effect. The purpose was to provide equipment manufacturers with some lead time to redesign their equipment for the newer, more stringent, engines.

 

 

As far as the WSJ article being "long or short" on either company, I did not read it that way. The article is written in a factual way and does not tell the reader which is a better pick for the future. Before picking any stock, one must do their own research. GE Transportation is the division that produces the locomotives and electric motors. The electric motors are used for other purposes such as oil and gas rigs, power generation, mining and such. Thus, the locomotives are a chunk of GE Transportation business, but not the whole chunk. Revenue for GE Transportation is ~5.6 billion US dollars. Compare that to GE Aviation which has revenues in excess of 20 billion US dollars. Compared to the overall size of the company, the locomotive business, while substantial, is so small that it is not a make or break for the overall performance of the stock. 

 

Same is true for Caterpillar. 

 

The locomotive business is so small for either company that one cannot make a judgement at to whether to go long or short based upon the locomotive business. That is why I did not take the WSJ article to be making that call. 

I'm wondering what tier IV actually means.

Are there going to be actual exhaust sniffer tests on diesel locomotives? What particulate and NOX levels are the trying to achieve?

 

When you see a "Bubba" roaring down the road in his F250 Powerstroke, "rolling coal," he able to do so because many states do not enforce emissions standards for diesel trucks.

Yes, the EPA says that your 2014 C3500 DuraMax must have a DPF, urea injection, and EGR valve, but if you are not concerned about warranty issues, you can do what ever you want to it once you drive it home.

As long as you don't live in CA, NY, MA, CT, RI, NH and VT you can remove all the above and re program the ECU to blow black smoke and no one is going to check or fine you.

 

I drive a small diesel every day. Any kind of smoke out the exhaust indicates something is wrong with the engine. To some, black smoke out the exhaust looks cool, but it indicates that the engine is burning too much fuel and not operating efficiently. Bubbas "rolling coal" do it to attract attention but its that kind of attention that will hurt diesel operators everywhere across the country.

Flash, Your looking at it from the customer perspective.  The manufacture's do not have a choice  in the matter.  You either comply, or you do not sell product.  If a consumer chooses to roll the dice and modify his or her engine.... that's on them, not the manufacturer.

 

The fines and issues for attempting to sell or to attempting to get around the rules are huge for a manufacturer as opposed to you and the sniffer test.  That is a state problem if you want to look at it that way.

 

You can easily look up what the actual standards are:

 

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/standa...road/locomotives.htm

 

 I should have noticed Flash was attempting to answer Andrew, but the same goes.

Just for the record, the ONLY SD90MACs that were repowered were a handful that were sent down to Australia in the last year or so.  The SD9043MAcs were BUILT with 710 prime movers with the idea that they could have 265H engines installed at a later date, but of couse that never happened.  The 265H DID have teething problems, but from what I have been told, they were actually less troublesome than the GE 6000 HP engine on which the current 4400 HP GEVO engine is based on.  The SD90MAC's problems seemed to be as much with the locomotive themselves, as it was the prime movers.  I have heard absolutely NOTHING on how the 265H prime movers in China are performing.  I also personally feel that high speed diesel engines (including the one Cummins is currently installing in an SD90MAC shell) are EVER going to be suitable substitute for medium speed (800-1000 RPM) prime movers of the type currently in use.

The TOTAL 90MAC platform has issues?  UP is still running SD9043MAC's. 

Also, CAT/EMD MIGHT have something "hidden" which they will anounce at "the right time".

As I understand it, all the AC6000CW's have been re-motored using the GEVO V-16 that is in the ES58ACi (Brazil, 5800 hp) and the ES59ACi (China, 6250 hp, also known as HXN5) to essentially create ES60AC's.

well, either way, it's probably a fair bet that CAT would not waste money trying to make a tier 4 version of the H engine.  If the 710 can't make Tier 4, then the C175 will probably be choice.   

 

Even so, I still agree with all that say that the 1800 rpm engines aren't really a good fit in a loco.

I dont know, CAT may be on track. 

Just not at building NEW locomotives.

 

CAT own Progress Rail. So guess what engines they use for their rebuilds?

Here is a spec sheet:

http://www.progressrail.com/cd.../4546812/7/PR30C.pdf

A Progress Rail locomotive. 

Looks like it was once a SD40T-2.