Changed my mind

If that item is coming in from China, they are likely charging you a surcharge that is being passed on due to the rise in the cost of containers themselves. They likely didn't want to simply charge you 90 bucks in shipping, likely that 30 bucks represents the extra cost of a shipping container they are being charged and they wanted to say "see, it isn't me". ..or at least that is my semi educated guess. I suspect dealers have been getting hit with this one as well, if it is what I think it is.

I have 4 SD40-2's reserved with 3rd Rail. I wonder what shipping will cost whenever they ship (2023/2024).

@bluelinec4 posted:

I ordered an engine from a well known manufacturer   I have purchased many items from them in the past but have changed my mind on this one due to some shenanigans   This is what I got from them

What the heck is a container surcharge?  And I ship many items that I have sold all over the country and it has never cost 60.00 to ship an engine   Thats what he wants for one   There is no way I am going to pay a premium for an engine and then add 90 bucks just for fun   Will be cancelling this order

The days of cheap shipping are over! Buy from China and expect to pay!

I am with you!!  I would cancel too.

If you don’t want the model, don’t pay it. However, one thing to think about is that in the small market that is O, you’re not likely to see some of these models ever get made again in a road name and livery that you want.

I know for certain I’m not going to quibble over $30 bucks for a nearly $800 model.

Now, doubling the price of some plastic passenger or cabin cars made a year prior by a different manufacturer, that I’ll quibble over.

@catnap posted:

I have 4 SD40-2's reserved with 3rd Rail. I wonder what shipping will cost whenever they ship (2023/2024).

If the supply chains stabilize, the cost might actually go down.

We went out to Arizona a few months ago and one restaurant added a charge to help defray their employee's health care.  I suppose instead of raising the prices 2% that was their way of covering ever-increasing costs.  I just saw an article today about that, and included gratuity, happening more and more.  Just like surcharges for using a credit card.

I think someone here, who is in the know, mentioned how the cost of using a shipping container has risen dramatically.

I suppose the choice is yours if you want to pay or cancel the deal.  Things like this are getting to be the new norm.

As a person who has imported goods for over 50 years, only once or or twice was I NOT able to lock in both the cost of goods and shipping before I listed my selling price. On those occasions where my costs had dramatically increased I contracted my customers directly and personally as soon as i learned of said increase and not on something as cold as an invoice.

Regarding shipping costs of $60, that is absolutely outrageous. Yes, domestic shipping costs have risen, but this being a free market economy suddenly discount shippers have popped up. Too often many sellers inflate shipping costs as away of making an extra (tax free) profit. Ben, you've sold enough trains on this site to have a good idea of what it costs to ship an item; what you do with this order is up to you, but I know what I'd do.

Not shenanigans I would suspect, just the actual cost of doing business in a period of inflation.

Most model projects are priced well in advance of them shipping and container costs did go up anywhere from 400% - 600% depending on when the item shipped.  Not sure how any manufacturer can account for that in their initial project pro-formas. 

Container cost I can understand, but not when presented as a fait accompli. Ben should’ve been sent an email, advising him, as soon as the manufacturer was aware, of the fact that they’d be adding this surcharge.
I don’t understand $60 for shipping. That’s very expensive.

Am I correct in thinking that instead of communicating your concerns directly with the seller, that your first instinct was to go on the Forum and start a ruckus? A well thought out plan...

John

Correctly or not, I heard that shipping costs have dropped by a factor of 10 recently for international containers.  If correct, perhaps the future will be less erratic in this fashion.  Always a disappointment when things cost more than one planned on, obviously.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

Regarding shipping costs of $60, that is absolutely outrageous.

Well, I know Ben is on the east coast, and if this dealer/manufacturer/importer is on the west coast, I wouldn't doubt the $60 shipping cost.

I shipped a Standard Gauge engine (a heavy item) from here in NJ to California a couple of years ago and it was close to $100.

I agree that the added charge should have been presented to the buyer before sending an invoice.  Maybe a note, "we have to add this charge, are you okay with that?".  I do not think it is nefarious or what some might consider gouging.

@John Meyncke posted:

Am I correct in thinking that instead of communicating your concerns directly with the seller, that your first instinct was to go on the Forum and start a ruckus? A well thought out plan...

John

Ben probably realized that he is probably not the only one receiving an invoice with such an added charge and wanted to see what others might consider doing.

I shipped a large, expensive, O gauge steam engine from CA to the East coast.  The cost to ship it with insurance was $100.  Of course I was an individual shipping the item and I don't a manufacturer's discount.

I was told by an importer that the cost to ship a container from China to CA went from $3,000 before Covid to $15,000 to $20,000 during the pandemic.  This was a supply and demand problem.  Empty containers were stuck in the US and there were no containers in China for goods.  Every importer was bidding for empty container space and the price just went straight up.  NH Joe

@bluelinec4 posted:

I ordered an engine from a well known manufacturer   I have purchased many items from them in the past but have changed my mind on this one due to some shenanigans   This is what I got from them

What the heck is a container surcharge?  And I ship many items that I have sold all over the country and it has never cost 60.00 to ship an engine   Thats what he wants for one   There is no way I am going to pay a premium for an engine and then add 90 bucks just for fun   Will be cancelling this order

Lots of explanations out there for this increase in inter-continental shipping if you want to take the time and search it out.  However, the cost of shipping from Asia via container rose 500% last year.  The average cost of a shipping container to USA starts at $1,000 and goes up...sometimes steeply...from there.  The manufacturers are not the shippers.  Shippers are a business enterprise unto themselves.   The ol' adage, 'No tickee, no washee!', applies.

Your invoice reflects my own recent delivery from the same source.  The two AB diesel sets had the same container/shipping charges added...for each engine.  TEHO, but it wasn't a problem for me.  I had calluses on my knees from years of groveling for those never-before-made-in-O3R sweethearts.  Both were proverbial 'bucket-list" items for me.

I well imagine your cancellation will make a stand-by candidate very happy.

I mentioned in another thread that last week I shipped one large scale engine from mid-Michigan to Washington state, a 17# package, definitely called "oversize" in USPS lingo.  Ninety buckaroos ($90).  Heck, China wasn't involved in that journey!!  My pair of AB's costing the same per set to go from China to mid-Michigan?...Sounds like a bargain to me!!

And so it goes...

KD

3rd rail was charging $50 a few years ago. I live in Michigan

Container surcharge was announced after the last Amfleet run for future runs. Not shenanigans, just reflecting costs of the world we live in.

As for $60 in shipping, transportation costs are not $60, but a combination of shipment/handling costs, fuel surcharge, distance charges and the biggest kicker insurance costs of shipping FedEx and UPS.

@John Meyncke posted:

Am I correct in thinking that instead of communicating your concerns directly with the seller, that your first instinct was to go on the Forum and start a ruckus? A well thought out plan...

John

If you know me you would know that I definitely spoke to this manufacturer first because I do think things out   Your plan of criticizing me is the one thats not thought out  If I wanted to start a ruckus I would have been more inflammatory so keep your comments to things that you actually know

Ben

@dkdkrd posted:

Lots of explanations out there for this increase in inter-continental shipping if you want to take the time and search it out.  However, the cost of shipping from Asia via container rose 500% last year.  The average cost of a shipping container to USA starts at $1,000 and goes up...sometimes steeply...from there.  The manufacturers are not the shippers.  Shippers are a business enterprise unto themselves.   The ol' adage, 'No tickee, no washee!', applies.

Your invoice reflects my own recent delivery from the same source.  The two AB diesel sets had the same container/shipping charges added...for each engine.  TEHO, but it wasn't a problem for me.  I had calluses on my knees from years of groveling for those never-before-made-in-O3R sweethearts.  Both were proverbial 'bucket-list" items for me.

I well imagine your cancellation will make a stand-by candidate very happy.

I mentioned in another thread that last week I shipped one large scale engine from mid-Michigan to Washington state, a 17# package, definitely called "oversize" in USPS lingo.  Ninety buckaroos ($90).  Heck, China wasn't involved in that journey!!  My pair of AB's costing the same per set to go from China to mid-Michigan?...Sounds like a bargain to me!!

And so it goes...

KD

If this was one of those engines never done before I might have said ok  But its a GP7 that has been done a million times already  I love the stuff from this manufacturer but not for nearly 900 for a diesel  Sorry

@dkdkrd posted:

However, the cost of shipping from Asia via container rose 500% last year.  The average cost of a shipping container to USA starts at $1,000 and goes up...sometimes steeply...from there.  The manufacturers are not the shippers.  Shippers are a business enterprise unto themselves.   

Average cost of a container from China is presently close to $10,000, not $1,000. (And that's less than half of what it had skyrocketed to during the height of the pandemic/supply chain issues.) Not surprised there might be a surcharge.

As far as shipping, a bit over a month ago I had a box (20x15x12) of trains (one small engine, cars and track) shipped from Calif. to Texas. It wasn't light, but the cost was almost $95. There are a lot of people who don't keep up with what shipping costs are these days.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

Well, I know Ben is on the east coast, and if this dealer/manufacturer/importer is on the west coast, I wouldn't doubt the $60 shipping cost.

I shipped a Standard Gauge engine (a heavy item) from here in NJ to California a couple of years ago and it was close to $100.

I agree that the added charge should have been presented to the buyer before sending an invoice.  Maybe a note, "we have to add this charge, are you okay with that?".  I do not think it is nefarious or what some might consider gouging.

I can understand a large steamer or a standard gauge engine as I have shipped them plenty of times   But this is a diesel engine   I have shipped hundreds of diesels coast to coast and they werent anywhere near $60

@breezinup posted:

There are a lot of people who don't keep up with what shipping costs are these days.

I am not one of them   I am at the post office and UPS nearly every day

Hey B, u now have a few extra bucks for the Tick-Toc Diner, and at Quaker Steak & Lube no cheeseburger deluxe this time, get that rib eye!!

I would cancel too.

If that's the manufacturer I'm thinking of (and I know it is, because I just got a similar invoice), their shipping includes handling, which for them includes quite a bit - opening boxes, examining product, organizing the shipping to receipients, etc. It's a relatively small manufacturer, custom order only. From that manufacturer, last year I paid around $100 to have a couple diesel engines shipped.

That's how it is. In pretty much all things, small specialized boutique operations with custom limited production and individual attention to their products are going to cost more than large, more mass produced operational setups.

"That's how it is. In pretty much all things, small specialized boutique operations with custom limited production and individual attention to their products are going to cost more than large, more mass produced operational setups."

Given that the price of everything from houses to natural gas to eggs has gone up strikingly, and that large companies have seen some of the largest profits ever, I'm guessing that most of the small businesses are not swimming in exaggerated profits at the moment.  Just keeping their heads above water and the lights on.  May not be fair or accurate to call these desperate measures "shenanigans" as the pain is pretty widespread for producers, retailers and consumers.

@bluelinec4 posted:

If you know me you would know that I definitely spoke to this manufacturer first because I do think things out   Your plan of criticizing me is the one thats not thought out  If I wanted to start a ruckus I would have been more inflammatory so keep your comments to things that you actually know

Ben

Well I guess I AM glad I don't know you...your initial post gave no indication what so ever of having contacted the seller first. That would have  been useful information don't you think. Not as dramatic for your purposes I'm sure, but it might have provided useful context to your plight.

John

@John Meyncke posted:

Well I guess I AM glad I don't know you...your initial post gave no indication what so ever of having contacted the seller first. That would have  been useful information don't you think. Not as dramatic I'm sure, but might have provided useful context to your plight.

John

It’s not a plight it’s called a discussion. What’s the difference if I called him or not. And with your reasoning I wouldn’t want to know you

Thank you for your honest replies Ben. I think I now know all I need to know.

John

There are two issues here, the cost but also perhaps more importantly the communication.

The cost points have all been raised above, pro and con.  

With respect to communication, or the lack thereof, there's a lot going on in the world right now with inflation, and if there is going to be an unexpected cost that has to be passed on to the consumer, the best way to prevent the type of discussion we are having here is for the company to pick up the phone, call the customer (no email), explain the situation, and offer the options.  If that had been done, I am going to guess that this post never gets made on this forum because the customer now has a better understanding of the situation and has been presented an option to accept the charge or decline the charge and the product.  

It is my belief that in the world of virtual meetings, iPhones, text messages, and Internet forums, people speaking to one another gets lost, and this type of direct communication is the best and most effective way to prevent misunderstandings.  

If it were me, I would decline the purchase.  Apparently, enough people will accept this type of thing to make it a viable business practice, but I am old-fashioned with stuff like this, and I am hard-headed and unsentimental with money.  I think for things like this, the old ways were far better than what we have today.  

This made me think, I am getting a package (two mr items) from the UK and the shipping (about five pounds or so) is $27.00 for air.

Shipping anything via USPS, UPS FedEx has ALL Gotten VERY Expensive. No way around it. ESPECIALLY from the west coast. And quality of service has gone down too. That’s just the way it is.
Container costs are another piece of the game and those costs have been THRU The ROOF. An import company can’t eat this increase or he’s in the red and out of business. With all that’s going on in the world, business is dropping, inventory is piling up (people have stopped buying) and companies are canceling orders from overseas. Things are dominoing and I read container prices are finally dropping.
I suspect small contracts have locked in prices so the coming shipment cost from China is a done deal. Let’s hope the Next container shipment of goods sees the surcharge disappear because container costs have returned to reasonable.
ALL IMO. Just my take. Right or wrong.
Cheers !!! 🙂

Two words.......

fuel costs........

I'm with you @bluelinec4, gotta draw the line somewhere. Shipping is getting out of hand.

The quote today for a 40' TEU Shanghai to Oakland was $3,772.00 down from $8,170.00 ninety days ago. The west coast back up is about 19 ships and falling.

I see no reason to pay a container surcharge.

Gunny

Let me break this down another way that is actually happening here. Domino's Pizza bac a while ago raised the cost of delivery from $4 to basically $5. people stop ordering, so the genius marketing team said lets do it this way. If you buy the 2 for $5.99 each is $5.99 each if you come and get it, but to get it delivered it's $6.99 so now since you need to buy two they just reduced the cost of delivery $1 to where it was, but now raised the delivery $2 more for the same order.

Container prices are coming down pretty fast.

As a compliment to the seller/importer, 4 years or so ago I received an AA pair of Alco PA's in the D&H scheme. Don't remember what the shipping was but I think it was around $50. One unit was giving me problems so I was given a RA# and back one of them went. A week later it was returned, in new working order at no charge. That's service.