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 Maybe I was more correct than I had believed? (how's that for proper English),..... right in the first place?

I had always hated ..... or maybe just disliked a few things about 3 rail. The large claw coupler was in the top 3. I always dumped them as I convert stuff to 2 rail anyways. Now that I am actually trying out the claws running 3 rail, I am surprised at the results.

 Now I have equipment from a lot of different manufacturers and over many years. There is a surprising amount of poor set ups to me. I have many pieces that the couplers actually droop on. Some are even mounted at different heights. How about that on higher end brass passenger cars!

 To make things worse, there's a detent in the straight position, that forces the whole coupler downward on engines as the couplers are drawn into curves. So the train adds resistance in the curves and the drooping coupler assemblies bow out and dump the train. WOW. That is fun. That's my biggest problem in running different brands of G scale outside. Smacked me here again.

 I thought I had issues when I learned that converting to KD couplers meant getting the heights correct and fixing dips or bumps in the track and bench work on my O scale 2 rail layout. I now see that even with an extra oversized claw, it can't make up for these same variances. If I have to correct many things, I may as well flip my 3 rail stuff over to KDs as well? To be fair, much of my new equipment works right out of the box. I do enjoy the electro couplers on the engines. I may just stay with them and fix the problem child ones. If they start failing as they wear in, out they will go! I do read posts of them popping open.

 I never knew with the positive posts over the years that the claws were just a Band-Aid to a re-occurring issue through all the scales of toy trains. They are so much over scale, they match the size of the stock (oversized) G scale ones. Coming from my background, always switching my other scales to KDs as a standard, I struggle to imagine why these couplers are still used so widely. I really think that most guys may just want to leave it be.

My rant is over. It's just settling in that the same issue follows me every where I go with these toys. A coupler twice the size it should be, can't fix sloppy design, workmanship, or materials.

1) a pair of cars and the one on the left droops just slightly. Just slightly annoying. The larger coupler makes it only a visual problem.

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2) the tender on my older 3rd rail Allegheny matched to a car that happens to have a coupler pointed slightly upwards? What are the odds that it's the car at the front of a long train?

(no, I didn't add the zip tie. I bought it that way!)

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that same coupler goes down even more when drawn into a turn!

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Hello ENGINEER-JOE

I have a Sunset 3rd S.F. 5011 and mine is a 16 wheel tender (pair of 8 wheel buckeye trucks) like your Allegheny has and most likely a weak coupler spring holding it up might have let it droop down a bit.  I believe it is a common problem but easy to fix by putting on stiffer spring.   It would help of you can post a picture of your tender showing the spring holding the coupler. Sometimes adding a washer or 2 to stiffen the spring will help.  I did that on mine and solved it.   From the way the picture looks, the coupler on the tender is pretty low.

"Be kind and loving to each other. Forgive each other the same as God forgave you through Christ" Ephesians 4:32 ERV (Easy to Read version)

Tiffany

Why do I put up with oversize couplers?

I grew up with Lionel so their "claw" couplers look normal and Kadees look tiny and odd.  As a kid real train couplers were bigger than my head !, so the oversize Lionel ones looked proper to me.  Kinda like in children's cartoons were the head is drawn way oversize because it is what children notice most.  Also, 95% of my couplers function as they should.  The others get tie wraps or become shelf queens.  Finally, ease of use is more important to me.  With just a jab of my finger I can uncouple my cars. 

Nathan

These dummy couplers will eliminate sudden "opening" on problem cars. Also good for passenger cars where you wont be switching cars much, we also have them in scale size too.

CLAW STYLE

http://www.scalecitydesigns.co...-Walthers_p_267.html

 Scale Style

http://www.scalecitydesigns.com/48-341-O-Scale-Dummy-Scale-Couplers-for-Brass-Plastic-Passenger-Freight-Car_p_255.htm

 

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48-341

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I love me some claw couplers.  Feel free to send them to me as you swap them out.

Why do I put up with it, well, like stated above, they work most of the time, and I think they look sized right.  And most are easy to open by hand.  And they force you to pay attention to your railroad so you don't have a wreck if one does come apart.  So exciting!

Well, to be fair, Kadees "cheat". Not only do their knuckles swivel from the center line of the coupler head instead of the side, but the "knuckles" are hooked to keep them from sliding apart under tension.

"Claw" couplers have the handicap of their locking pins always being dependent on some contrivance winning the war against gravity to keep them closed. If "the claw" had locking pins that relied on gravity (or magnetism) to keep them from sliding out of place (i.e. move up to unlock), they'd probably have stay-closed-ability rivaling, if not matching Kadees.

And if they'd just outlaw truck mounted couplers on toy trains and force everyone to convert to finescale body-mountings, another source of quirks would go away too* 

---PCJ

*stated with tongue firmly-in-cheek.

Last edited by RailRide

Same. The amount of tinkering for the traditional knuckle couplers is minimal. It seems like some who prefer installing Kadees like to exaggerate minor problems of the original equipment.

In fact, installing Kadees requires care to ensure they mate correctly. You want to make the effort, fine. Don't pretend the installation Kadees is somehow less work than tweaking the occasional quirky traditional coupler.

No matter. The manufacturers know the lion's share of the market prefers the original knuckle couplers. That's not changing.

Jim R. posted:

Same. The amount of tinkering for the traditional knuckle couplers is minimal. It seems like some who prefer installing Kadees like to exaggerate minor problems of the original equipment.

That is your OPINION, but it is not mine, as it has NOT been my experience. I have NEVER had a train consist equipped with Kadee couplers come apart, due to the knuckle comping open. The "claws" are pretty famous for that. Plus, when switching in the yard or industries, I do NOT have to bash into the car in order to get the "claw" to close and latch, especially without even moving the car being picked up.

In fact, installing Kadees requires care to ensure they mate correctly.

Really? Please explain further.

You want to make the effort, fine. Don't pretend the installation Kadees is somehow less work than tweaking the occasional quirky traditional coupler.

Well, in reality the installation of Kadee couplers is pretty much a one time deal, i.e. just make sure that the Kadee height gauge is used, and then there is no more "tweaking", period!

No matter. The manufacturers know the lion's share of the market prefers the original knuckle couplers. That's not changing.

Again, another opinion on your part. MTH has been offering Premier freight cars for quite a number of years now, that are ready for Kadee coupler assemblies, even including the necessary mounting shim.  Even Lionel is now offering scale size freight rolling stock with Kadee mounting pads. Apparently MTH and Lionel might know something about what their "scale oriented" customers desire.

 

Did you say MTH and Lionel are offering castings that reduce the amount of work you have to do when installing Kadees? 

Well, you answered your own question. Aside from those cars, you have to shim, adjust and meet a standard when installing Kadees. That's work. That's time. That's effort.

You would have to expend less effort to tweak the problems of the occasional bad traditional coupler.

And I never said anything about Kadees coming apart when running. Funny, though, since I have installed Kadee couplers on N scale and HO equipment and know about operational problems firsthand. Flawless? Hardly.

My OPINION is that you are cherry picking facts to support your preference. And how many cars from MTH and Lionel do you know that come with Kadees installed. I'm waiting, Hotwater.

I have run KDs in HO scale first, then G, and most recently O. They do all perform the job flawless.

I am the original poster here and I am biased. I have always swapped to KDs and just expected better results from the stock claws. Of course for me, nothing in running model RRs comes easy. Each scale has been troubles in some way and form. So I should know that on my RRs, work must be done.

 I will swap to KDs for the 3 rail, just as all my others. I was just venting. It's funny to me that the few 3 rail cars that I've bought that are used, have twist ties or zip strips on the claws. Is that a big deal? No. It suggests to me that someone else had performance issues too.

Jim R. posted:

Did you say MTH and Lionel are offering castings that reduce the amount of work you have to do when installing Kadees? 

Well, you answered your own question. Aside from those cars, you have to shim, adjust and meet a standard when installing Kadees. That's work. That's time. That's effort.

You would have to expend less effort to tweak the problems of the occasional bad traditional coupler.

And I never said anything about Kadees coming apart when running. Funny, though, since I have installed Kadee couplers on N scale and HO equipment and know about operational problems firsthand. Flawless? Hardly.

My OPINION is that you are cherry picking facts to support your preference. And how many cars from MTH and Lionel do you know that come with Kadees installed. I'm waiting, Hotwater.

No,,,,,I am NOT "cherry picking"! I began using Kadee couplers in the mid to late 1950s, as soon as they came out, when I modeled in HO. When I changed to 3-Rail Scale, back in the mid 1990s, I quickly up-graded everything to Kadee couplers, since I knew how well they worked in HO, especially for my VERY long C&O coal trains. They work just as well and reliably on O Scale, and THAT is the reason I still use them. 

Also, that "work" and "time" you refer to, is all part of the enjoyment of modeling in 3-Rail SCALE!

To each his own.

Engineer-Joe posted:

I have run KDs in HO scale first, then G, and most recently O. They do all perform the job flawless.

I am the original poster here and I am biased. I have always swapped to KDs and just expected better results from the stock claws. Of course for me, nothing in running model RRs comes easy. Each scale has been troubles in some way and form. So I should know that on my RRs, work must be done.

 I will swap to KDs for the 3 rail, just as all my others. I was just venting. It's funny to me that the few 3 rail cars that I've bought that are used, have twist ties or zip strips on the claws. Is that a big deal? No. It suggests to me that someone else had performance issues too.

Definitely. Stock couplers are made of diecast metal and use springs. Bad castings or maladjusted springs can cause problems. Roughly 1 in 20 have some flaw. So you deal with them as they arise. No big deal.

Kadee makes decent couplers because that is what they do. You invest the time up front. Install them correctly and generally there are few problems assuming decent track work.

My only point is that you invest time either way. So it's really a matter of preference of appearance. 

When someone rants about traditional couplers being unreliable, I think of the guys at my club running 50-car trains without a problem, and the few problems I have had myself. How is it we can be so satisfied?

Admit it. You like the look of the Kadee couplers. That's what this is about. 

So I dismiss the rant as biased. 

Do I have a bias? Well, I'm not sure. I have seen what has happened in HO and N scale, where manufacturers bowed to serious hobbyists' demands. Knuckle couplers? A definite improvement. Finer flanged wheels. Poorer tracking for newcomers and decisively exclusionary to kids. I see the same push in 3-rail on this forum from a few who dislike the third rail, dislike the deeper flanges, dislike the couplers. So my bias is this: I don't want to see 20 percent of the market misrepresent what 80 percent of the market likes just fine. 

Hot Water posted:
Jim R. posted:

Did you say MTH and Lionel are offering castings that reduce the amount of work you have to do when installing Kadees? 

Well, you answered your own question. Aside from those cars, you have to shim, adjust and meet a standard when installing Kadees. That's work. That's time. That's effort.

You would have to expend less effort to tweak the problems of the occasional bad traditional coupler.

And I never said anything about Kadees coming apart when running. Funny, though, since I have installed Kadee couplers on N scale and HO equipment and know about operational problems firsthand. Flawless? Hardly.

My OPINION is that you are cherry picking facts to support your preference. And how many cars from MTH and Lionel do you know that come with Kadees installed. I'm waiting, Hotwater.

No,,,,,I am NOT "cherry picking"! I began using Kadee couplers in the mid to late 1950s, as soon as they came out, when I modeled in HO. When I changed to 3-Rail Scale, back in the mid 1990s, I quickly up-graded everything to Kadee couplers, since I knew how well they worked in HO, especially for my VERY long C&O coal trains. They work just as well and reliably on O Scale, and THAT is the reason I still use them. 

Also, that "work" and "time" you refer to, is all part of the enjoyment of modeling in 3-Rail SCALE!

To each his own.

No disagreement here. Kadee makes great couplers. HO had horrible stock couplers back then, so you made the right choice. 

And the O scale couplers are equally as good. 

But you didn't upgrade your couplers in O gauge. You opted to another system you like better. 

For two-rail O scale with 120-inch curves and true-scale trains, you gotta have the smaller knuckle couplers. It goes with the territory. For 3-rail. Well, face it. Most of us are just fine with it as it is -- well, outside of the prices. 

Well of course my opinion is biased. Not only did I state that up front, I will stay with that. That is just my opinion, that's all.

This post is about the performance of them. I admit that almost all of my new ones work right out of the box.

The thing about the size being twice than it should be, is it doesn't become a cure all. I see failures already. That just surprised me.

The looks of the KDs aren't as important as the performance, or I would use actual true scale couplers.

Why would I post that in the 2 rail forum where they're not used? (the claws!)

Why would I post that in the 3RS forum where they're not used?

Why would I post that anywhere else where they're not used?

So I will leave your Hi rail forum posts and realize I won't make anyone here change their minds. I bet there are many less vocal that just wrap a tie around them and soldier on.

Last edited by Engineer-Joe

With all due respect I have to agree with HW that 3RS does exist. I have seen some really incredible 3RS layouts. 

"Well, you answered your own question. Aside from those cars, you have to shim, adjust and meet a STANDARD when installing Kadees. That's work. That's time. That's effort."

I prefer Kadees myself. It has been my experience that Kadees are more reliable than the Lionel type coupler. I have had a lot less issues with Kadees as compared to the Lionel type coupler. In fact I have had very close to ZERO issues with O scale Kadees. Part of the reason they are more reliable is because they are set to a STANDARD. We all know that 3 manufacturers do not adhere to any mechanical standards. I once had a K-Line car that would not coupler at all to a MTH car because of the way the coupler was designed. It just wouldn't couple. I had to not use that car. Eventually, when I found out about Kadees it wa one of the first I converted. 

Installation of the Kadee coupler is very easy as long as there is a Kadee coupler mounting pad. If there is no mounting pad then that is where installing a Kadee coupler can get to be very labor intensive. 

I do agree that 80 to 90% of O Gauge enthusiasts do prefer the Lionel type coupler  or either just don't care and they probably don't need the reliability of the Kadees because they most likely run short trains in circles and do not do any switching. 

Hudson J1e posted:

"Well, you answered your own question. Aside from those cars, you have to shim, adjust and meet a STANDARD when installing Kadees. That's work. That's time. That's effort."

Installation of the Kadee coupler is very easy as long as there is a Kadee coupler mounting pad. If there is no mounting pad then that is where installing a Kadee coupler can get to be very labor intensive. 

 

Actually, it's not much work at all to install Kadees - rarely takes more than 5-10 minutes regardless of car with or w/o pads for me. Anybody can make whatever pads are needed; convert whatever needs doing - none of this is major surgery or rocket science.  Don't have the right holes - drill and tap them!  It's all trivially easy.  What....I hear it now - "I don't have the skills..."  -  skills are something you learn and acquire.  Get them and you just might find that they are useful for endless tasks and projects well and beyond model trains.  

Meeting a standard is easier yet and why meeting a standard might be construed as something negative is a mystery to me. 

3RS?  older than most of the people posting here............

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