Clockwork American Flyer

I love the looks of those Flyer clockwork Hiawathas!  Nice looking locomotive, glad you posted the pictures.  You mentioned restoring it, what did you have to do to it?

James

The engine bed and drive wheels were badly rusted but I did find evidence of this being chromed at one time. The clockwork itself was frozen at the mainspring and of course, the uniquely sized threaded key was missing as well as the tender being bent out of whack...I could not restore the original brightness \ luster of the four color paint scheme as I could not match the colors nor find any reproduction decals, but as they say, "It has the patina of age.." Do you or anyone else have any information on the production date? I could not find a thing. It seems to be the most obscure of the obscure....

It's always nice to see an old clockwork rescued.  I think it looks fine, nothing wrong with a well-loved train showing a few battle scars from its years of service.  My AF knowledge is very limited - hopefully some of the more knowledgeable guys will chime in - but according to Graeme's AF Hiawatha webpage, they were made mid-30's to early 40's:

http://www.binnsroad.co.uk/rai...ocos/hiawathacw.html

I assume you found (or made) a key for it?  How does it run?  It's funny you mentioned the odd threads on the key - I've been struggling with unusual threaded hardware on a couple of different windup projects lately, too.  There are always challenges when working on windups... part of the fun, I suppose!

James,

I ended up like many others with playing a game of "match the thread" as I have never come across a key yet and often (as you probably know) the sellers of windup keys who actually give enough information for the buyer to make a match are few and very far between. I thought a Hafner key might work as they seemed similar. It didn't work and while I could have forced it, I had no desire to strip the thread. So, with loco in hand I made my way to Lowes whose employees were fascinated by this antique. After several of us rummaging through the bins, we made a match but I have yet to figure out how to make it usable. The spring when manually tightened runs fine. If anyone knows also how to make a key out of a machine bolt, Id appreciate being enlightened. I might take it to a body shop with a knowledgeable welding \ brazing staff..Haven't gotten that far as it went on the back burner due to other errands etc.

I have a spare threaded Hafner key if you need one.

The hardest part is done, now that you have a bolt with a matching thread.  I am curious, what thread (diameter & pitch) is it?  Like you alluded to, the easiest way to turn it into a key is to weld a handle on to it.  Another option would be to get an appropriate diameter steel rod, thread the end and bend it into shape.  I made a crude key for a friend's clockwork train last year... in this case, it was a male thread on the motor, so I drilled and tapped the end of a 1/4" steel rod, then welded on a crosspiece.  It isn't photogenic, but it is effective:

If you aren't able to get a key fabricated, let me know the details and I would be happy to make one for you... no guarantees on appearance, but it will work. 

Hi James

The threaded key has to be the smallest diameter I have come across. It is 3/32 fine thread and takes about 1 1/2 inches to clear the cowling. My choice was either stainless or brass, so I stayed away from the softer brass material which would make it tougher( the stainless) to weld.Now I am thinking of a double nut with lock washers on either side of a small piece of L bar stock and using Locktight to secure it. That clockwork looks like it has my daughter's off road suspension. Does that engine have a cast iron body? I am guessing it's from the 1900's.

Bruce

Electroliner, if the threaded rod/screw came from Lowes it must be a standard thread. If it is about 3/32" it is probably a #3 screw size. All of this size screw have what the layman would identify as a "fine" thread. The standard thread count for a #3 screw is either 48tpi (threads per inch) or 56tpi - did the Lowes bin say anything like this? If you can verify this diameter/tpi, contact me at my email address in my profile.

Owen

No nothing of that nature was on the bin or box ( I just looked) and it was listed as a machine screw if that helps. As far as thread count, I don't have a clue. I wish I could be of more help. The brand is Weathermaxx if that helps you out. I could put a sample in an envelope out to you, if that helps.

Bruce

Bruce - Send a sample. I will measure and return. Looking forward to helping you out with this. P. O. Box 207, Medina TN 38355.

That is a very small key.  Owen is right on the money about needing to verify if it is a 3-48 or a 3-56.  The locknut and handle idea should work, although with a shaft that long and slender, it might be very easy to bend.  It would be nice to make a key out of a bigger diameter steel rod, turned down on the end and threaded to fit the motor.  With the proper length of thread and a shoulder at the motor end, it would be less prone to bend or break.  It sounds like Owen might be able to get something more robust for you; if not, let me know and I could come up with something.

In regards to the locomotive in the picture, I was told that it is a American Flyer Type VII which was made between 1917-1922.  It is a cast iron body.  This little guy had a broken mainspring; in fact, there was just a short piece left in the motor.  With a new mainspring and a key, it is a great runner.  It belongs to my friend Rick; he is a fan of the older cast iron body trains, and is always bringing over little gems like this.  You can see the little Flyer (along with some of our other locomotives) running in this video:

My only CW Flyer

Owen

I sent some samples of the screw to you today. Sorry for the delay of my response but I wanted to post a photo of this fairly unique critter. Here is a photo of the clockwork engine bed and this is the only example of a clockwork I have come across with built in counterweights to increase traction. The bed of the frame is all one piece stamped with this "trough"stamped to incorporate the collection of weights located above the geared rear drivers. Whats also sort of unique ( to me) is that unlike the other clockworks I have, this one very simply and effectively clips to the cowling without any screws. The lip protruding from the spring housing next to the gear locks to a spring clip on the top of the inner engine body. Pretty cool.

James

That is one cool video and layout. I thoroughly enjoyed it being put through it's paces. The cars are as unique as the engine so I assume they are from the same era.  (?) Really neat. I wish I had your design for track work when I built mine. Dang.

Bruce

Neat motor, thanks for the picture!  Glad you are getting a key made for it - you'll be able to run and enjoy it even more.  As far as the video, the cars are around the same vintage as the trains; some were Flyer, some Joy Line.  I've changed the layout since that video; I liked the original track plan, but I wanted a third O34 loop on the lower level.  The elevated O27 loop wasn't practical, a lot of the windups go too fast for the O27, and derailments would turn into a Dukes of Hazzard style jump onto another train!  I do miss the double crossover between loops, though.

James

I know what you mean in terms of Casey Jones "jet powered" windups joining the birds. I ended up having to super elevate all the curves on mine after my first run on it. . That double cross over was something else again. You ever come across Ive's clockwork switches? Those have to be ( in my book) the best looking, solid clockwork switch made. I have Hornby's ( on the left below) I never used due to radius problems, but after many a month I only managed to find one Ives. Not surprising. The Hafner's ( on the right) are dust collectors. I ended up modifying Marx hand throws..The Ives switch with the red switch point indicator is the middle one. 

My ambition exceeded the real estate needed. My wife just tolerates the second layout.Good enough for me. 

Bruce

Bruce - Thanks for update re: shipping sample. I'll be in touch when received and measured. And that mechanism is in really beautiful condition!!

Bruce, that Ives looks neat - I've never ran across one, but it appears to be a nice switch.  Here are some clockwork switches you might find interesting...

First up, American Flyer clockwork switches:

Note the two different types of switchstands... here are a couple of closeups:

I assume the target on the second switch is homemade... 

Next up, 1930's era Bing switch that was reportedly made for Bassett-Lowke:

It has a neat ground throw:

It appears that it also had a target at one time, but it is missing.

I think if I had it to do over again, I would go with Hornby track.  They have the wider radius track & switches available, and they can be found... although it usually means shipping them in from England.   As it is, I'm happy with the track on my layout, except for the crossover between the O42 and O34 loops.  Someday, I'll make some custom switches to replace the heavily modified Marx O34's that I currently use.

Great vintage stuff. Like that 2-rail track and the old switches, too.

I took the original key out of my Marx M10000 because it stuck out too far to run on my layout, and substituted a hex nut machine screw with matching threads. I wind that up with a slow-geared cordless screwdriver and count the turns. That could be an option for you instead of fabricating a conventional key?

Hex head machine screw sticks out just far enough to wind with other tool.

James

Thanks for sharing the photos as I am always looking to learn more as I am no expert on clockworks. If you ever decide to go with a wider radius let me know by email. They are compatible with other makes. The Hornby track are a wider radius by a considerable difference.  The switches from across the pond are just gathering dust. Although in a perfect world, I would have preferred the wider radius too, I had to make mine portable as I already have one layout to disassemble at some future date, which I will be loathe to do.

On the topic of switches, I have a Craigstan battery loco that is O gauge that like the Hafner switches uses whats been called a slot track. I don't know if you are familiar with this but it somehow manages to take a siding in one direction and bypass it in another. It automatically drops off and loads  although I have yet to fine tune it. It seems like the slots ( instead of rails) are carefully canted to do this at the switch point. Very colorful and my favorite battery job.The guy on the back waves a warning flag. All mechanical   If you want to see a video of it in action, let me know...I don't know why but I find this a fascinating diversion. They can be had pretty reasonably. I found more track ( 2 sections) for it which should make for about a eight foot run. I think I could convert the loco to rail but I have no desire to butcher the original design.

Ace,

That occurred to me as well but not having a key bugs me. Why? I don't know.

Owen

It will be interesting to hear about that thread count. This info could help others in my shoes as I have yet to find a AF key that fits the Hiawatha. 

Bruce

Bruce - I got the samples today. The thread is 6-32, .134 diameter and 32tpi. A lot stronger than the 3-48 we had discussed.

I will make you a key if you provide some basic information. How big is the hole the key has to pass through on the side of the engine? How many threads of the sample go into the spring shaft before the screw bottoms out? And how far is it from the end of the spring shaft to the outside of the engine body? Finally, I would like a picture of the flat "handle" part of the key - tells me what shape you want it to be. I do have an AF #10 with a key that may or may not be AF that I could copy.

An interesting project that I look forward to tackling!!

Hi Owen

The thread count as completely turned into the female fitting is ten, and the overall length that would be required to clear the cowling once it is in place fully turned is at one inch. The outside diameter of the hole that the Flyer has through the cowling is 3/8's of an inch. Hope this helps. I really appreciate all your help in getting the old girl running as she should.

Bruce 

Bruce - Thanks for the measurements. Only question I have left is what about the type of handle? Looking at the picture of your engine in the Greenberg AF O gauge book, it appears the handle is formed by folding a steel rod (what diameter?) to a handle shape. The alternative would be a flat sheet metal handle fixed in a slotted shaft. Your choice - I can do either, one is as easy as the other, won't take long.