CNJ Signal Question

I grew up next to the NY&LB and, while my knowledge on the subject is far from comprehensive, I cannot recall seeing a 3 over 3 signal, particularly in the portion of the line from South Amboy to Middletown.

(pausing here to allow others to upload 355,000 pictures of 3 over 3 signals... )

The 3 over 2 worked just as you described.  Since "L 133" (I might have that number wrong) was just a few hundred yards from my boyhood home, I probably sat and watched that signal work over and over again hundreds of times.  Our biggest thrill when we were kids was to climb it and watch trains go by right next to us.  It would sort of click and thunk internally as the lights changed colors.

If I had to guess -- and it's only a guess -- I'd say that the 3 over 3's might have been used in conjunction with any one of the numerous movable/opening bridges along the NY&LB.

HTH.  Would love to see pictures of your layout.

Steven J. Serenska

I too grew up next to the NY&LB, although it was the North Jersey Coast by then. I believe there was a three-over-three near where the Matawan Creek Trestle stood. The trestle was way before my time, but the photo appears to show a staggered head three-over-three. There were also signals like that on the main, I think one is still standing outside Allentown, though long abandoned.

From the way you describe the sounds, I'm guessing the control relays were inside the signal itself, rather than in a separate cabinet.

I play with the real things now, though in the Metro St. Louis area, and out here it's all divergent route rather than speed signals.

Moveable bridges atually used a 3-over-3-over-3 combination, and the heads were in a vertical line, not staggered as on the block signals. Interlocking signals also had the heads in a vertical line, and some of those had three heads, others had two, depending on the speed of the crossovers.

Don't forget to add a Raritan River interchange in South Amboy!

I can understand the 3-over-2, since the cycle tended to be "Clear(green over red) , Stop(red over red), Approach(yellow over red), Approach Medium (yellow over green), Clear (green over red again)" as the train progressed through each succeeding block. 

So where would the second yellow come into play? I thought maybe if the signals were close enough together a second yellow might be needed to show "Advance Approach (yellow over yellow)", but that by itself doesn't explain why a second green would also be needed on the lower head.

I'm not familiar with CNJ signaling, but from your wording about a second green or second yellow I get the impression you may have a misconception about how signal heads are normally used.  That is, a single signal head does not show more than one light; in other words, green over red or any other combination would not be shown on one head.  The top head would show one color and the bottom head would show the other.  So, a "second green" is needed because if the top head is displaying yellow, then the bottom head has to display the green for yellow over green. 

Also, railroad signals typically have vertical color light signals arranged the opposite way from highway traffic lights - that is, railroad signals typically have green at the top and red at the bottom.

PGentieu posted:

I can understand the 3-over-2, since the cycle tended to be "Clear(green over red) , Stop(red over red), Approach(yellow over red), Approach Medium (yellow over green), Clear (green over red again)" as the train progressed through each succeeding block. 

So where would the second yellow come into play? I thought maybe if the signals were close enough together a second yellow might be needed to show "Advance Approach (yellow over yellow)", but that by itself doesn't explain why a second green would also be needed on the lower head.

 

I'm not familiar with CNJ signaling, but from your wording about a second green or second yellow I get the impression you may have a misconception about how signal heads are normally used.  That is, a single signal head does not show more than one light; in other words, green over red or any other combination would not be shown on one head.  The top head would show one color and the bottom head would show the other.  So, a "second green" is needed because if the top head is displaying yellow, then the bottom head has to display the green for yellow over green. 

Also, railroad signals typically have vertical color light signals arranged the opposite way from highway traffic lights - that is, railroad signals typically have green at the top and red at the bottom.

The misconception seems to be what I meant by a block signal, and yes, on most railroads automatic block signals had only one head. This was not the case for the CNJ. On the New York and Long Branch particularly, block signals had two heads. The lower one was mounted on the opposite side of the pole from the upper head. Red was indeed always on the bottom light of each head and green on top, and the bottom head usually had a green on top and a red on the bottom. Ocaisonally, though, you could find a block signal that had three lights (G-Y-R) on each head. That was the point of my question.

To further complicate things, the 1974 aspect chart for the CNJ shows signals with staggered heads, but none of the aspects show the lower head's yellow light actually lit on a staggered head signal.

But I guess I might be a little confused about how signal heads are normally used, I only had five years as a maintainer, four years as a manager, and four years as a signals superintendent, on two freight railroads and a light rail system. 

Trainman2 said:

On the New York and Long Branch particularly, block signals had two heads. The lower one was mounted on the opposite side of the pole from the upper head.

 Just so we're all on the same page, this is a photo of a block signal like the one that I remember:

I suppose that the heads are indeed mounted on "opposite sides of the pole", but I think we should be clear that this means they are slightly offset from one another as you face the signal.

You said a bit earlier:

From the way you describe the sounds, I'm guessing the control relays were inside the signal itself, rather than in a separate cabinet.

This makes sense and I had never really thought about it as an adult.  The signal above is nearly identical to the one I remember and, yes, it would appear that the relays are in a cabinet integral to the signal pole.  I could be wrong in thinking that I heard the clicking up near the signal head.  Maybe I just remember it from the cabinet at the bottom.

If you look at that picture, there's a little catwalk/platform underneath the upper signal.  We would climb the ladder at the back and then stand on that platform hugging the signal pole when trains passed by.  It was a quite a thrill.  Looking at the picture now -- and how close the signal is to the tracks -- makes me wonder about all sorts of things, like how much trouble a kid would be in if he tried doing something like that today.  The engineers would always wave back; I also remember being eye level with the guy riding in the caboose as he sat with his arm out the cupola window.

Fun discussion and memories.

Steven J. Serenska

That's exactly the type of signal I mean. And thanks for the color photo. I'm guessing this is the '60's or later, since I saw an episode of "Trains and Locomotives" that showed color films of the K4's in Hazlet and Matawan, and the signal poles were painted white then. The heads were alway black.

The double stack relay cabinets at the bottom were typical of block signals, the interlocking signals had a single cabinet, and they had both (or all three) heads mounted on the same side of the pole.

I'm going to use WeHonest heads, and possilbly make my own bases, unless Kiel Line's successor makes a double stack cabinet. Those cabinets could also be found standing alone, either next to a highway grade crossing, or even in an area where there were other signals. I plan to use a white plastruct pole for the mast, but line it with brass in case a train derails into it.

That said, there were a few (possibly very few) block signals where the bottom head also had three lights, instead of the two in this picture. And there were even a few on the NY&LB (around Morgan IIRC), that had three heads, and the middle one was offset. 

Not sure what either of these could be for, since the CNJ aspect chart shows signals like those, but the lower (or middle) head never shows yellow for any of the rules, just red or green.

I'm guessing that the relays were inside the cabinet under the signal itself because it was fully automatic. All information came either from block occupancy, or from information fed to it by the next signal, whereas interlocking signals were set by the tower or drawbridge operator, and they worked in conjunction with switches or drawbridges, so they couldn't be self-contained.

Those relays clicked pretty loudly, and it was an all-metal structure, so the sound could have seemed to be coming from the head.

I too have climbed signal ladders, usually to see why a light is burned out. Usually, though, I could get in big trouble if I was on the signal when a train was passing.

This might be a useful find for this discussion:

At approximately 35 seconds into the video, you'll see a train pulling into Belmar Station in front of a 3-over-3-over 3 signal.  There are many other good signal photographs in this slide show.

HTH.

SJS