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I have bought entirely too many locos recently, almost all from MTH.  But MTH seems to be at the  top of its game right now, producing some extraordinarily good model locomotives, and they also seem to be reading my mind as to what locos they produce.  And I have been a sucker for Warbonnet since age six, when my whole family took the Super Chief to California.  So, I could not say no to the ATSF E-8 A-B-A set (20-20355), nor not also order an extra B unit (not here yet), even though I have an excellent A-A Legacy set of E-9s (Union Pacific, 6-39612) with an MTH E-8 B unit that is an extraordinarily good match to the Lionel models, and even though I also rode UP's City of Los angeles a few years later - also to California.  Below, I talk about this new MTH E-8 set, and give my impressions of how it compares to the Legacy E9s.

 

The MTH Premier A-B-A set.  It was well packed, had no rust or missing parts, and arrived in perfect condition and ran right out of the box.  It looks spectacular (more below).  It feels good, too.  All three units are heavy and feel substantial.  Lights, including the Mars light, are very good. Sound is good - not quite Legacy good, but nearly, and the sound the unit makes on shut down, sort of a woo-woo-wooo-woooo-wooooo-wooooooooo - whew, sound, is both strange and toy-like.  Probably not prototypical, but really fun.  The units run very well in conventional. Both A units are powered, I think twin motors - anyway both trucks have the outermost two axles powered, the inner is freely-rotating and blind (flange-less).  Only one (the forward A unit) has sound.  

     My experience is that PS2 and early PS3 locos did not run as well (smooth start, good low speed smoothness and control) in conventional as Legacy locos did, but this set is quite nice.  The set seems to pull hard although I have not put it to the test.  Horn is okay, nothing special.   MTH claims in its features description of this set that it has "two smoke units."  Of my two A units, only the forward one generated any smoke.  

 

Minor rant: It took 20 minutes (!!!) to set the three-unit set up on the track because of those @#$%%!!! stupid MTH tethers between units.  One cable was too short: I had to turn the B unit over and coax another half inch of cable out of the unit slowly.  Both cables were stiff and seemed to fight the couplers - cables and couplers did not like to play nice together. Both connectors really did not seem to seat all the way (it looks like that anyway) but seated enough to run).  Setting them up and getting the tethers connector, the couplers connected, and all the wheels on the track correctly was a tedious and at times frustrating introduction to an otherwise fine model.  It is bothersome enough to hitch these puppies up that it will make me think twice about taking them down and setting them up to run them in the future.  Why does MTH still use this approach?  Ugh.

 

Anyway, the A-B-A set runs and functions as expected: which is to say extraordinarily well.  Here is a brief video of the A-B-A set making a slow-speed pass, running in conventional at about 10 volts. 

 


A spectacularly beautiful set.  I admit I am a sucker for Santa Fe's Warbonnet.  No diesel - no locmotive for that matter - ever looked better to me than Warbonnet EMD Es and Fs do.  Here, the paint is very glossy and shiny: certainly no real-world at all, but just spectacular on a toy sitting on my layout . . . . Here is the MTH set along with my Legacy E-9s (the B unit with them is an MTH E-8B).

 

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Another view.  Wow.  I love both . . . 

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. . . so a third view.  I just love these big boys.  

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But beautiful as the UP E-9s are, the ATSF E-8s are shiny, with a mirror-like metallic finish that is so cool, and shin, shiny red paint with a still-wet gloss to it.  The UP set, including the MTH B unit  I bought to go along with the Legacy A-A units (which appears to be an identical model, except for paint and finish, to the ATSF B unit), is all in a matte paint finish - no doubt much more true to the real world.  But the MTH wins hands down in the wow factor when its sitting on the track. WOW!!!

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Both look a bit ridiculous when rounding curves, with a bit of truck stick out that gives them a bent-lip look.  The MTCH ATSF loco is going to a 72 inch curve here, the UP is on 60".   I can live with this, but it tell you these are models and running on a small layout . . . 

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Comparison is interesting.  Neither loco is a clear winner here.  Both have nice metal screens, good looking trucks, good detail as to fans, pipes and "stuff" on the roofs, etc.  Notice in the photo above that the MTH (left) does have more detail as to "stuff" attached to the front of the A units front truck than the Lionel model (right).  I do not know if this is a modeling omission on Lionel's part or if it reflects different equipment installed on ATSF E-8s versus UP E-9s.  Regardless, I likettached "stuff" so I prefer the MTH look here. Looking at the photo below, lthe roofs are equivalent overall in my opinion.  The UP units here have snow guards over the intakes, but I don't think ATSF installed those, and otherwise they are very similar.  

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I did not count rivets to see if those of these models are the correct number as on the real locos, or if the two companies give you the same number or rivets on these locos.  There seem to be a sufficient number in both cases!  

      I do know that MTH (below right) gives you 32 spokes on the cover of the big fan on the E-8s, while Lionel (left) gives you only 24 spokes on the E-9s.  Again, its this a difference in E-8s and E-9s?  I don't know.  Does it matter to me.  No.

     Both companies say they have visible fans underneath the fan shrouds.  I can see the Lionel fan and its blade, and when I blow on it, it turns.  I can tell something is underneath on the MTH - it is not dark below, but the fan is not as easy to see (you can sort of make it out in the photo below) and it does not move when I blow into the fan.  No big deal. 

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We've had threads recently about the windows on the Legacy locos, with this crease or whatever in the windshield (left).  The MTH does not have this.  On the other hand the Legacy is noticeable more flush than the MTH, where the window looks to be four of five scale inches farther back inside the windshield frame.  So neither wins here . . .   The Legacy has railings above the windows.  I don't know if MTH left them off or maybe ATSf E-8s did have them whereas UP E-9s did . . . 

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Speaking of flush windows.  It can be done right . . . Here is the 3rd Rail ToT E7.

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Both MTH and Lionel have doors that open (yawn - a feature with aboslutely no value to me).  Moving on now . . . 

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A final note if MTH is reading this.  I much prefer this model's Operational manual (right) to those for the European series (left): when you have 100 or so to store away, it helps if they are compact.  

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Summary and final comments.  Both sets are great. Neither is perfect.  The Lionel set has slightly better sound, the MTH slightly better detail, I think.  The MTH is better looking, but that is mostly Warbonnet's doing, not MTH's.  Both run very well.  

But MTH's A-B-A set is the same price ($929.95 list) as Lionel's A-A set was when I bought it, and for that they give you two powered A units - four motors, not just two, for your money.  I bought both sets a mild discounts by shopping around, but I paid the same for the MTH A-B-A set as for the Lionel A-A set.  A extra B-unit is about $250 of so . . . 

 

So if I could afford just one, I'd go with MTH, Even as much as I dislike those annoying tethers.

 

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A friend brought a MTH ATSF A-B-A set to my home layout last week.  All of us who saw the set thought it was stunning.  I started to think about where I could find a set but then I realized that I would need something first.  Maybe I will get one someday.  

 

I didn't have the problem that Lee had hooking up the tethers.  Maybe it was just luck.  I usually put the engines on the track and use long nose pliers to make the connection.  I connect the couplers after I get the tethers in place.  

 

The engine ran extremely well using my DCS system.  Low speed performance was very impressive.  We didn't test it in conventional mode.  

 

The smoke units on both A units worked well.  The B unit does not have smoke unit.  I tested a number of features including the PFA and couplers.  Everything worked as advertised.

 

This is one of the best MTH models that I have seen.  I wish it was mine.

 

Joe

 

Last edited by New Haven Joe

Lee - Thanks for your timely review.  I was just in the process of trying to determine what to pull my California Zephyr with in the future.  Unfortunately even though your review has helped a lot, it still is a hard decision for me.

 

I very much dislike Lionel's new windshield glass and after having it called to my attention have trouble disregarding it.  But, I do love Legacy engines and especially not having tethers on F or E units.  I think Lionel has the edge in sound quality, but MTH has better recordings and station sounds.  MTH is easier to setup in the handheld, but Lionel's handheld is much better for me to use. 

 

Thanks again for the review.

 

Art

A very interesting comparison Lee, between the 2 sets. I read your post with interest for several reasons.

 

First, I recall that shortly after I joined the forum last year, you were looking for a UP E9B to go with your E9As. So I suggested that you check Ebay for the UP E8 that was for sale. I was glad to see that you grabbed it, and that E8B does match very nicely with your E9As.

 

Second, I too, rode UP's City trains when I was a kid during the summers from 1959, through 1966, between Salt Lake City and Los Angeles and back. I was usually on the City of St. Louis, then later the City of Los Angeles. Maybe we were on the same train and didn't know it.

 

Your SF and UP Es are very nice. However, one complaint I've always had with UP engines is that none of the manufacturers, particularly Lionel, have never been able to get the yellow paint just right. We have to settle for a mustard yellow, while UP painted its engines the Armour Yellow, which has a brighter, and slightly "orange-ish" finish. I can understand why you favor the appearance of MTH's Santa Fe warbonnet on the E9, rather than the UP yellow.

 

A couple of other interesting points: The Santa Fe only had one set of warbonnet E9s, while they had many F3s and F7 sets. The UP had a number of E8s and E9s pulling their "Cities" passenger trains.

 

I've also noticed your beautiful UP passenger train up on your shelf in several of your more recent posts. But that full-length UP dome car looks a little out of place to me, since the UP never owned or operated any full-length domes on any of its passenger trains. The Milwaukee Road had them, painted in UP colors to match their through service to the Northwest with UP, but not Union Pacific itself. UP's city trains we rode back in the 1960s only had the shorter-dome cars, some that were even dome-diners. However, the one one your shelf still makes for a beautiful train.

 

Anyway, I appreciated your photos and analysis of both engine sets. I only hope I don't get hung out to dry now by some of your loyal followers, as has happened before when I had questioned something of yours.

 

Happy trainin'.

 

 

 

 

Great review Lee.  I agree with what you said except for the functional doors, which I think adds class to any locomotive.  I very much agree about the PITA tethers, to the point where I don't want any more tethered engines.  I only bought my PS3 NYC E8 ABA's because they are beautiful Jade Green.  The fact that they have great sounds, smoke, detailing, and are great pullers is icing on the cake! C'mon MTH, lose the tethers already

 

Rich

 

Rich

Originally Posted by Lee Willis:

... MTH's A-B-A set is the same price ($929.95 list) as Lionel's A-A set was when I bought it, and for that they give you two powered A units - four motors, not just two, for your money.  I bought both sets a mild discounts by shopping around, but I paid the same for the MTH A-B-A set as for the Lionel A-A set.  A extra B-unit is about $250 of so ...

 

Lee, excellent review.  I recently snagged an MTH Santa Fe ABA set from Nassau Hobbies during one of their great sales, and it brought the price down below $590... Which I thought was excellent for two powered A units and a dummy B.  I liked the set so much, I purchased the extra dummy B-unit for around $175 a week later.

 

Street pricing for the Lionel E8/E9 AA units tend to be in the vicinity of $660 or so for one powered A unit and one dummy A unit.

 

So for me the MTH units are the clear price/performance winner, and the MTH stainless steel finish is fabulous.

 

The only thing I would have added to your review is a picture comparison that includes a set of F3/F7 locomotives to highlight the fact that the E-series ABA config is about the size of an F-series ABBA.  Side by side, the F-series / E-series comparison reminds me of the days when I first compared O-27 equipment to O-scale products.  Even though the F-series is scale, the E-series locos upstage them any day.

 

David

Originally Posted by midnightwrecking:

I just found out that CN used E9s on the Super Continental, Lord help me!

Say what???? 

 

The last I looked the only E's purchased new in Canada were three E8's for Canadian Pacific which were used in commuter service.

 

CN got some ex-IC/Metra/BN/CB&Q "executive E9's" when they bought up the IC.

 

As I recall, CN used GMD FP9's/F9B's and Alco/MLW FPA4's/FPB4's on their transcontinental passenger trains.

 

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque
Originally Posted by Bill T:

Nice review, 4 motors vs 2 motors would be the clincher for me.

 

   Bill T

More motors is not always a good thing.  I have the K-Line E-8 ABA that has 2 motors in each unit for a total of 6.  A real power hog and it has small motors driving the roof fans in each unit.  Planning to make the B unit a dummy and disconnect all the roof fans.  Then with LED's in the passenger cars it should be easier on the electricity consumption.

 

Art

Originally Posted by c.sam:

Very nice Lee,  thanks.

 

As some mentioned in another thread about the Lionel E series, the trucks appear to set too far out from the body and your beautiful photo seems to illustrate this. The truck on the UP appears 'bulkier' and too far out to me...

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I don't notice it that much in person, although it looks it in the photo.  The Lionel trucks look to be very slightly more crisply cast than the MTH ones: neither is probably a perfect model.  I'm okay with any extra gap between trucks and body - maybe I have just grown used to it. 

Lee, thanks for the excellent review. 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Pingman:

Nice write-up Lee; and, thanks for the photos.

 

I don't have a photo of SF Warbonnet  E units, but the F units did have that shiny stainless and "wet" looking red:

 

 

SUPER-CHIEF-PASADENA

 

Carl, when I see a picture like the one you posted above...   it looks sooo goooood I just wanna go there and give that engine a big 'ol kiss.  But I don't want to smudge the SS finish.

Originally Posted by SantaFeJim:
Lee, thanks for the excellent review. 
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Pingman:

Nice write-up Lee; and, thanks for the photos.

 

I don't have a photo of SF Warbonnet  E units, but the F units did have that shiny stainless and "wet" looking red:

 

 

SUPER-CHIEF-PASADENA

 

Carl, when I see a picture like the one you posted above...   it looks sooo goooood I just wanna go there and give that engine a big 'ol kiss.  But I don't want to smudge the SS finish.

That's OK Jim, just kiss it on the warbonnet paint, then you won't smudge the stainless steel.

 

Isn't #347C the AB set that's at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento? These units visited San Diego back in 1988 where the visiting public (including me) got to go inside the A unit, look at the prime mover, and sit in the engineer's seat. It was an awesome experience.

Very nice review Lee!  Thank you for taking the time to prepare it.  E units are one of my favorite diesels.
 
Originally Posted by Lee Willis: 

Minor rant: It took 20 minutes (!!!) to set the three-unit set up on the track because of those @#$%%!!! stupid MTH tethers between units.  

As for MTH ABA tethers, it was mentioned at the DCS meeting at York by Andy Edelman that MTH is getting away from using the tethers, as evident in the current catalog.  Starting with the New Haven C-Liners in the last catalog and the F7's in the current catalog, two separate powered "A" units, a dummy "A" unit and two dummy "B" units are now offered.  NO tethers.

Being a two railer I give the MTH set a big A+ for their engineering and cross marketing. 

 

If Lionel only had the foresight to be open minded about two rail scale it might give them an opportunity to have a piece of the European model 2 rail market which is a cash cow for MTH.  They can rest on their laurels only so long.

 

Not being a rivet counter I was very pleased to get a two rail MTH A-B-A set delivered for well under $600.  Good low speeds, powerful, DCS sound and control.  What's not to like?  OK, it did take two pair of small needle nose to connect the tethers.

Last edited by Tom Tee

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