comparison of lumber suppliers

I watched it.  I've been selling lumber for lumberyards for 35 years.  Don't do this...  I worked part time at Home Depot for a short while just to make a little extra dough.  I must say there was a bit of humor to it.  I spent most of my time putting all the crooked unusable lumber people had picked thru back on top of the stack only to do it again the next day.  Most of it is garbage.  The 2x4s are Hem Fir which will twist and become hockey sticks as soon as they dry out.  Can't say much good about the rest of it either.

That said, I'll be happy to sell you a box of toothpicks right now for $999 delivered.  Prices are ridiculous.

@William 1,

I here what you're saying, but ...

Are you're saying that we should basically ignore the video, or are you agreeing with it?

Telling us about the garbage doesn't tell us where not to find garbage.  Telling us about high prices doesn't tell us where to find low prices.  (I think that's why @Mallard4468 posted the video in the first place -- so that we would learn something about quality and price).

Mike

I'm not looking forward to purchasing plywood for my upcoming layout!

I just bought 12 1"x6"x16' boards to replace broken ones on my horse fencing at $30 a piece.  If I replaced every board, which will be required soon, I'm looking at over 10K in boards alone!  Part of my fencing is a plastic straping, which looks good and has worked out so far.  I haven't looked at the updated price, but I'll probably use an alternative to wood.

I am a retired carpenter and at one point worked for myself for 10 years. While working for a contractor and when I started on my own the lumber was suppled by two lumber yards in DuPage Co IL. Both had been around for many years one of them over 100 years and both are out of business now probably due to the 3 big box home supply stores mentioned above (I still can't call them lumber yards). The masses will always go for price over quality. Once while talking to one of the buyers for the lumber yard I was buying from we were discussing the quality of the lumber at the big box stores. His comment was that they all buy materials that were rejected buy him and his other buyers. That hit home with me and helped me justify the cost of lumber to the customers on my projects. I would order 500 2X4 studs and had them delivered for framing and was able to use all 500 of them along with all other dimensional lumber needed. And that delivery was FREE, it was free delivery even for one peice of trim 8' long. They were able to do that because their volume overall was great and their customer base was within  a 100 mile radius of their location and had trucks driving past your job on any given day anyway. That would  would not be the case with lumber purchased from the 3 big box home stores. The true lumber yards are long gone where I was able to purchase specialty lumber (usually in stock) and if not have it ordered in within days a week at most. Now you have to search high and and low  and pay far on the high side for good quality material. Luckily my projects nowadays are small as we all know the cost are rediculous. Worst part of all that the lumber we buy now is not ony expensive it will not last as long as the lumber purchased 20 years ago. This post got me going hopefully it makes sense.

Dan

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

@William 1,

I here what you're saying, but ...

Are you're saying that we should basically ignore the video, or are you agreeing with it?

Telling us about the garbage doesn't tell us where not to find garbage.  Telling us about high prices doesn't tell us where to find low prices.  (I think that's why @Mallard4468 posted the video in the first place -- so that we would learn something about quality and price).

Mike

As someone who usually defaults to Menards, I found it interesting to hear what he said about the different species that each chain sells for construction lumber.  Even though I'm an experienced woodworker, I have to admit that I hadn't paid much attention to the markings on 2x4s.  (Of course, as the presenter noted, we don't use a lot of construction lumber for woodworking projects.)  I think that we should also be aware that the species stocked by each chain may differ by region, or maybe not, so we should check his observations against what we find locally.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

I'm not looking forward to purchasing plywood for my upcoming layout!

...

As you mentioned, the bad news is that plywood is probably close to double what it was a couple of years ago.  But the good news is that wood for a layout only needs to be purchased once.  For a moderately large layout, the extra expenditure might be the equivalent of buying an engine.

As far as the the price of plywood, one sheet of 7/16" OSB was $8 each for decades, now it's $46 a sheet.  One piece of 1/2" CDX Fir was $15 each for decades, now it's $61 each, just priced today.  It was as high as $80 a few months back.  Not real fun.

Dan - If you live in DuPage county, Il - Just for kicks, here is a list of all the lumberyards I have worked at that have gone out of business since I've been doing this lousy job.  You might recognize some of these names:

- The original Hines Lumber - Des Plaines Lumber - Mayfair Lumber - FE Wheaton Lumber - Stock Lumber - Maher Lumber

That's six outfits, none went under while I worked there except for Maher, but it says something about the business in general.  I won't mention who I work for now, it's a worse run company than any of the others mentioned above.  Back in the day I was selling over $5 million a year as an outside salesman and building $800,000 houses, those days are gone forever...

Where does a true lumber store like 84 Lumber stack up with quality and pricing?

84 is my direct competitor, they used to be considered kind of a second rate outfit in the Chicago area, but like any company, sports team, etc. it depends on the one in charge of the operation.  They are more of a classic lumberyard setup than those big box stores and a national company, they might still be one of the biggest in the business.  They've been around for quite a while so they must be doing something right.  The lumber business is very tricky, it's a commodity, and if a one yard outfit buys a lot of material when the prices are high and the market starts sliding, they are in a world of hurt, stuck with high priced inventory and forced to follow the market to move it.  It's almost like gambling, the guy buying the material better be sharp or things can get bad real quick.  There are futures markets to play with as well, not so attuned to all that, but I know enough to say if they are played right it can be a big benefit to the company.  Selling lumber is one of the oldest businesses in human history behind prostitution and it's every bit as dirty...   That's a line I've used at times for a laugh, but it really is true.  It has always been a precious commodity in demand.

William

The two lumber yards I have worked with were Moser and FE Wheaton. FE Wheaton is in my opinion the best there was. I had a bad experience with Hines and I tend to hold a grudge so I did not continue giving them my business. I agree with your assessment of 84, I would use them only if I had to. It’s a small world and we may have crossed paths at one point. The salesmen I worked with were Jay S. and Kevin W. I still talk to Jay occasionally.

Dan

As a general rule, I've found that if you are going to buy lumber at Home Depot or Lowes, don't waste your time from Saturday afternoon to Tuesday morning - all that you will fine is picked over bent/split leftovers. Seems to me that they restock late Tuesday and Wednesday leaving an unpicked over supply for you.

Just my observation, FWIW.

No self-respecting "woodworker" I know would ever confess to buying lumber from Home Depot, Lowes, etc. We go to the mill yards, but that's a whole different lumber I am thinking of.

Seriously though, when I started building my layout last year I never considered using lumber because it has been crap for years. I went for quality birch plywood, ripped my own 1x4's from sheets. I buy that from local yards. It is more work but I save wasting time trying to find straight lumber. Since everything was flat and square it made construction much easier. At the time it was also a little cheaper than lumber 1x4s.

I use 1x4 finger jointed primed pine for layout framing.  Perfectly straight and sound.  Don’t see the need to use birch plywood for anything in layout building, but hey if it works for you that’s all that matters.  I know it ain’t cheap.

I used 2X4 framing on my layout( yes from (HD). When it came to platform I looked at all available plywood types. What was important to me was I wanted it to lay flat. The only product there that layed flat on its own was 3/4” osb. It is now all covered with scenery now. I’ve had absolutely no issues with the layout other than I wish I would have made it in movable sections. Oh well it is what it is and the trains run on it the same as if it were made of any other materials. The trains simply don’t care.

I used 3/4" plywood for my standard gauge layout about 15 years ago.  It was definitely overkill, so I plan on using 1/2" on my soon-to-be O-gauge layout.  A little less expensive and lighter to carry for this 56 year old!

I kept the Mianne benchwork I had purchased.

I am building a modular layout with LCCA FasTrack module kits and Mianne legs with lower cross beams.

The LCCA frame sides are precut finger jointed pine and their frame ends are precut birch veneered plywood.  LCCA does not supply the plywood top or legs.

Due to several OGR discussions about lumber quality from big box stores, I bought furniture grade birch veneer 1/2” plywood from Owl Hardwood Lumber Company in Des Plaines IL.  Owl Hardwood also has 2 other Chicagoland locations in Lombard IL & Oak Lawn IL.  I also paid extra for Owl to precut the plywood to the specific sizes for my tops.  This reduced waste on my part, provided straighter cuts (than I ever could), and increased the ease of transport & handling of the plywood by me (my body was happy !).

A woodworker friend of mine loves the quality of Owl Hardwood lumber, so I decided to use them for plywood.  Previous posts on OGR Forum had suggested having the lumber yard pre-cut plywood for ease of transport & handling.

Although LCCA recommends the use of 31” legs cur form 2”x2” pine, my 60 year old body wanted 48” legs for ease of crawling under the layout.  With all of the OGR posters’ comments about warped pine lumber & praise for Mianne’s straight kiln-dried poplar legs, I had Mianne make 48” legs with custom sized cross beams to fit my LCCA modules.  

Although I probably paid more for the LCCA kits, Mianne legs, Mianne cross beams, & Owl pre-cut plywood, it is worth it to me in avoidance of bad lumber & resultant headaches.  

During my benchwork construction, I have purchased power tools, hand tools, screws, etc from Home Depot, Menard’s, Lowe’s, & Ace Hardware.  

I will use my modular layout strictly as a home layout.  No plans to drag it to train shows, which my body will not allow.  I wanted a modular RR for ease of expansion & portability (luggability ?) in the event that I ever move.  

Hope this helps others think through your projects.  Previous OGR lumber & benchwork posts have been invaluable to me in my benchwork & layout planning.  

Back in the 1980's when I was building my benchwork I worked for a division of Wickes Companies, owners of Wickes Lumber Yards. As such I enjoyed a generous "family company employee" discount. However, for better quality lumber at a somewhat higher price I made my purchases at locally owned independent lumbar yards.  To this day I still avoid the Big Box home centers for any sort of purchase unless it's a verifiable quality product I need immediately on a Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon. I like supporting the little guys. This goes for not only lumber, but also name brand appliances which are often not of the same quality as those sold by the independents. It's all a matter of simple research.

Home Depot - their lumber is good for fires.

Lowe's - slightly higher grade kindling.

I absolutely hate going into these stores and have successfully avoided doing that for months.

Best solution?  Find yourself a good family-owned lumberyard and patronize them.  They still exist.  Dambach's in Harmony, PA (Zelienople) is a good one.  Allegheny Lumber in Tarentum, PA is also a good source.

George

@William 1 posted:

I use 1x4 finger jointed primed pine for layout framing.  Perfectly straight and sound.  Don’t see the need to use birch plywood for anything in layout building, but hey if it works for you that’s all that matters.  I know it ain’t cheap.

And I see no need for 2x4's or any dimensional lumber, especially glued up pieces of pine. If that works for you I am happy to let you build how you want with what you want.

One of OGR sponsors sells bench work kits made from birch plywood. Model Railroad Benchwork. Maybe you should check into it before blowing off a very sound method for building a layout. Decent plywood and pocket screws make for a very solid framework.

I wouldn't even think about building a lift table like this with dimensional lumber.

Well obviously you need sheet goods for the tabletop, and you had someone else build your benchwork, so how much did you actually build.  Looks like you've got a ways to go, how long did it take you to get to this point I wonder.  When do you think you'll be running trains.

No, you mis-understood. I built mine entirely myself.I merely pointed out there is business building kits in this manner and they are also a forum sponsor.

I started in June last year and have been running trains on the lower level since August. Yes I still have to build the upper level, and I'll probably be using birch shop grade plywood since the baltic birch isn't available anymore. This isn't like Mianne, it doesn't depend on the top surface to stiffen it up, although it certainly adds to the rigidity.

Here is my thread on sourcing the parts and building the table:  DIY lift table

Here is my layout build thread

I answered your questions,  so please answer one for me. Why all the animosity? I don't remember poking anyone in the eye lately.

So 10 months to get this far.  I built a $16,000 fully functional Legacy equipped layout with a 2nd level reverse loop for a guy in 6 days using my method.  Just sayin.  Enjoy your build.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

One of OGR sponsors sells bench work kits made from birch plywood. Model Railroad Benchwork. Maybe you should check into it before blowing off a very sound method for building a layout. Decent plywood and pocket screws make for a very solid framework.

I went with Model Railroad Benchwork because I just didn't feel like building benchwork from scratch.  Now, I have a relatively small layout (6'x12') and it probably cost more than buying raw lumber and hardware.  But I was able to assemble each module and leg assembly on my workbench and bolt it together at my leisure without the associated mess of cutting and drilling.

Plywood is 2x4 handy panels from Menards.  I'm keeping one 2x2 section loose temporarily for easy access to the center.

Rusty

@Rusty_Traque,

I haven't checked since last year but I remember his prices were very reasonable. If you paid shipping it obviously adds to the cost but I still would bet you did pretty well on pricing. I drew inspiration from some of the kits. I have all the tools and the plywood supply close by so I couldn't justify not building mine from scratch. I wondered what plywood he might be using these days and I see from your picture he has found an alternative.

You can build a layout from big box store lumber, the one advantage they have is they are open when most of us are free to go, and if you find you need lumber at 7pm on a monday night, they are the only game in town. That said, I agree with others, the quality of lumber at HD and Lowes leaves a lot to be desired (I don't comment on Mendards because they don't exist in my neck of the woods). Their 2x4's especially are horrid, among other things they are supposed to be kiln dried and I really wonder about that, but the worse part is the handling, they often leave lumber outside to get wet, not a good thing for building materials. That and I would bet pretty good money like a lot of the stuff they sell, they get "HD/Lowes" specials from the suppliers, that quite honestly is junk. For example, the Anderson windows or Pella windows you see there are not the same as the ones you buy from a supplier, they are made for the store and are junk (Contractors love them on the other hand, they charge people for "Anderson Windows" they buy at HD at the price you would pay from a distributor).

What I found building my layout was that if I had to buy from a big box store, I went for what they called the higher grade hardwood, it wasn't great, but I had a lot easier time finding decent wood that way, didn't take me hours, and so far the wood has held up (tells you how much of a snail's pace my layout has been, now over 2 years in place).

In general I agree with others, when I get wood I usually order it from my local lumber store, fortunately there is one a couple of miles from my house. When I get things from there it is good quality, I don't have much if any waste, and quite honestly it wasn't that much more expensive then HD or Lowes, and if it is a  large order they deliver for free if it is above like 200 bucks (below that, I will pick it up myself; these days not a lot of lumber, that is for sure!).

The only downside of lumber stores and yards is they aren't geared for the typical consumer, they service contractors and usually are open 8-4 monday-friday, with maybe a couple of hours on saturday. These days that isn't has hard, with people who can work from home, but it used to make it very difficult to use them. The other problem I have seen with lumber yards over the years is that like far too many small businesses, they tend to treat people as if they are doing you a favor and it is clear they see customers as an annoyance. My local guy is okay, but others in the area, I might as well go to HD or Lowes to be ignored or treated like I don't exist.

I am fortunate then to have a real lumber yard in my small town of 1100 people.  Smith's Lumber has good quality or he won't stock it.  He also loans out equipment, at no charge, one of the perks of living in a small town where people know you.   Lowe's & Menards are 45 minutes away but I avoid wood purchases there.

Rich in SD

@Rich Melvin posted:

Where does a true lumber store like 84 Lumber stack up with quality and pricing?

I can only speak about the 84 Lumber in my town of Rockaway NJ, but it is superior in quality, and price, compared to the local Home Depot.

Less selection, at least partly because they stock no "standard' grades. Nothing warped, no bad knots, etc.  No Homasote products stocked, and will only order a minimum quantity. My HD stocks it.

You're in and out of the place, but pay a premium of 20% compared to HD. A little more? Something like that.

You can catch Morristown & Erie RR's big red ALCOs bringing lumber. So, that's another plus.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Where does a true lumber store like 84 Lumber stack up with quality and pricing?

There's one near me in Mars, PA but I haven't purchased lumber from them.  I was put off by their counter people's inability to order bathroom hardware (bunch of kids with the attention spans of a ferret on double expresso).  That being said, they should be capable of stocking decent wood.  As someone mentioned, they really aren't focused on the casual consumer.  They do a lot of business with contractors in our area.

George

So, what we're hearing hear is that it's best to work with a traditional old-fashioned lumber yard, in order to get quality product, and more than anything else be simple, yet clever, in constructing your benchwork using the minimum materials possible in order to save money.

I can easily do the second, and am already planning on how to do so, but the first is getting to be nearly impossible because, at least where I am, all traditional lumber yards have now closed.

But I can, and in the past have, followed another path.  Unfortunately this one is probably not available to most people.  Living where I do (Detroit area) there are, within a two-and-a-half hour drive, several sawmills.  We also have local millers who can bring a portable sawmill out to a site.  I have used both of them in the past with great success, but for slightly different materials, like oak flooring.

As a result I currently have about 1000 board feet of soft maple I picked up by helping a neighbor, who had a big tree cut down, dispose of the logs.  All it required was hiring a local miller who, with the help of his portable sawmill and operating curbside in front of my suburban house, cut everything up into 4/4 rough stock.  He charged me $100 an hour for three hours work -- and no transit or fuel charge.  I had to plane it down to 3/4" finish stock, but I fortunately have a planer. 

It's not pine but it sure cost less than buying pine from a home center.

Why is this an alternative?  Because it seems like transportation and interim handling costs are a large part of the reason for the price increases we're seeing.  Buying directly from nearby small mills, whether in the form of wood stock or milling services, avoids most of this, although you still have to pay for gas.

I'm almost ready to build now, but it seems like the hard part is done.

Mike