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A little over a year ago I returned to working on my layout I started over 20 years ago.  I was having an issue with powering the tracks for my TT and RH tracks.  Thanks to all that tried to help me.  I actually found a power-stat that an old friend that was helping me scratch build my turntable had left here.  I don't know how to wire it in though.  Anyhow, I had been looking into and watching the Lionel reps vids on youtube to become only more confused.

I had seen the Lionel legacy 990 back around xmas in a few places on sale and preorders for around $340 or so.  Now only unscrupulous venders on ebay wanting $600 and & $700 for a command set. A couple of days ago I was told buy a rep at Charlesro just to wait for a couple of weeks for a newer product.

Watching lionels outdated vids I learned that I needed to add a powermaster, and a powermaster bridge to use my two postwar ZW's to power my small layout of two individual loops.  I was under the impression that the powermasters were only an in between for the AC transformers and the track, and powerhouses were modern power supplies that can be used as opposed to the post war ZW's.  Now somewhere on here I just read about the different voltages of the Powermasters.  I'm confused as all heck. I've also gleaned much information about how I need to protect the internal electronics of the modern engines. One of my questions is should I be concerned that I'm running a couple of Lionchief locos strictly from track power provided from my ZW's.  Thanx in advace for any help and advice.

Signed,

Dazed and Confused/ Ken

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@obxtrainman Ken, for just running LionChief locomotives, the ZW transformer set to 16-18 Volts output will power them without any of the Legacy/TMCC Powermasters, Command Base, Bridge or Powerhouse transformer.  Of course if you do this, adding external circuit protection is a good idea.

If you have TMCC or Legacy locomotives, then there's is more to it.  I would suggest waiting until Friday to read more.

👍. I figured as much about waiting for a bit longer. I do have two or three of the first gen tmcc engines. That’s the problem. I love my Lionel tmcc T1duplex and my k line Je1 Hudson. I have a first gen cab1. I think it was ruined 20 years ago because I hooked it into the second zw without phasing I’ve two ZW’s properly about 20 years ago.

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Ken,

I love your layout.  Welcome back to it.

Nothing has changed in Lionel's command control product line, fundamentally, since TMCC was introduced in the mid 1990's.  So, between the time you exited the hobby, and now ,we are still talking the same language, and using the essentially the same products to run the trains.

What has changed is the present shortage of electronic parts making up the products.  This has resulted in a very recent skyrocketing of prices for them, a resulting change in plans going forward by the players, Lionel and MTH, and approaches by all of us to deal with both of these situations.

We'll be seeing Lionel's plans shortly.  It appears to be only a matter of days now.

Just as a reminder, there are three main pieces to TMCC/Legacy as it has existed for the last 25 years:

1.)  A method to power the tracks -- You can purchase a PowerHouse, which is a fixed-voltage AC power supply designed primarily for command control use (TMCC/Legacy/LionChief), or you can still use an old-fahioned transformer, like a ZW, KW, or other.  The newest PowerHouses, such as the well-liked PH-180, have top-notch circuit breakers, much better than traditional transformers, which will help prevent damage to locomotives and rolling stock when short circuits occur.  The old fashioned transformers need "help" with this.  Fortunately such "help" is not too expensive if you want to stick with your ZW or other.

2.) A method to control movement of the trains, and activate their other fun features -- For all TMCC/Legacy command control stuff this consists of only a CAB device (CAB-1, CAB-2 or CAB-1L) and its appropriate Base, or for LionChief the LionChief remote that came with the locomotive.  Newer Legacy or LionChief can also be controlled by a smartphone app via BlueTooth.  LionChief cannot presently be controlled by CAB-1, CAB-2 or CAB-1L, except for LionChief 2.0.  If you're using a PowerHouse to power the tracks simply turn it on before attempting to run the train.  If you're using a ZW or other traditional transformer turn it on and set the throttle, for the output connected to the track, to maximum.

If you want to control traditionally-controlled (conventional) trains instead you can certainly use the ZW or other just as it was connected back in the day, and move its throttle up or down to control the train.  Where this gets interesting is if you want to use a CAB-1, CAB-2, or CAB-1L remote instead to control traditional trains.  In this case you need a PowerMaster, which goes between the power source, either a PowerHouse or a traditional transformer set to maximum, and the track.  The PowerMaster will take your commands from the CAB-1, CAB-2 or CAB-1L and power the track as if, together, they were a traditional transformer.  Turning the knob up on the handheld remote here is the same as pushing the throttle up on a ZW or other, but you can do it walking around instead of standing in one place.

A PowerMaster bridge is ONLY necessary if you use a first-generation PowerMaster with a CAB-2 or CAB-1L.  All later PowerMasters do not need a bridge.

3.)  A method or methods to protect your expensive equipment from short-circuits and overvoltage spikes -- The electronics in modern locomotives, cars, and accessories are sensitive to accidental overloads.  There are two types of these overloads, overcurrent (usually due to a short-circuit), and overvoltage (usually coming from a collapsing magnetic field associated with a rapid change in the power being delivered to motors and solenoids).

This means that you'll need a fast circuit breaker, like the one inside the PH-180, or one or two aftermarket alternatives that can be used with your ZW or other.  You'll also need a transient voltage suppression device (TVS) to combat any overvoltage spikes.  It's wise to use TVS's with either traditionally- or Powerhouse- powered track setups.



Stick with us here on the forum, as the next few days unfold, for the new stuff coming out.  It probably won't replace everything detailed above, perhaps some of it, but is expect to add features to it as well.

We're all on pins and needles.

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

Some great information in this thread, and I appreciate the knowledge sharing.  I got more from reading this than I did from all of the Lionel videos that are out there!  I have a follow-up question, snd since this appears to be the most recent thread related to my query, decided to post it here instead of starting a new discussion.  I'm running Legacy engines with a Cab 2 Remote and Base.  Currently, I'm powering my 2 track loops with an old ZW transformer, and am utilizing 2 TMCC lock-ins to provide circuit protection.  I recently acquired two PowerHouse "bricks" (1-180W / 1-135W) to use instead of ZW for track power.  I've read that they have circuit protection built in, so do I still need to go through the lock-ins before going to track??  I have plenty of Molex connectors, so I'd be able to power my bus line without cutting the ends off the bricks, and I'd love to be able to reclaim the space on my layout that the lockons are now taking up, especially since their current location is in the way of a grade that I'm trying to build with trestles.  I don't want to do that though if eliminating the lock-ons leaves the Legacy engines at risk.  Thanks for your thoughts!!

@Pennsy.Johnnie,

You don't the need the TMCC Direct Lockon for the PH-180.  You're correct.  It has built-in protection that is quite good.

On the other hand this is not the case for the PH-135.  It's not to the same level as the PH-180, and so the Direct Lockon or other instant acting circuit breaker (like an AirPax Snapac or PSX-AC) is recommended.

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

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