I suspect thats the reason Mike Reagan was put in charge of production.

 

If he does anywhere near as good overseeing production as he has done with the parts and service dept things should get noticeably better.

 

You may want to email your comments directly to Lionel as well, they do read them.

I guest you could say that they have a quality control problem….. Are the goods package in China?….  Does Lionel have a company man overseeing and inspecting the goods before it goes in the box?… or are the goods manufactured put in a box and sent to the U.S.A. I really have no idea what takes place when something is Made In China. I must say that I was upset with Lionel started dealing with China…….  If there watching…BRING LIONEL HOME TO AMERICA…….

 

I have seen the same issues with MTH products.

Don

I don't know were MTH are made?….

I had the opportunity to speak with Lionel's new President Howard Hitchcock at the TCA Museum presentations and at the Lionel display in the Orange Hall. I was very impressed that he listens and is very concerned with how their customers perceive them. Since you have had glaring issues, if it were me, I would send Howard an e-mail with your recent experiences. I am pretty sure he will appreciate what you have to say.

 

Hope all of your issues are quickly resolved.

China.

 

Rusty

I have found that most companies are genuinely interested in honest feedback, and generally respond.

I really don't won't to be the bad guy hammering LIONEL, But I'am not so sure that Lionel really has any great interest in an on line group of people who purchases a limited amount of goods….. Keep in mind that they have to produce thousands of stater sets for Walmart,Toy r us and who knows who else……  my guess is that's were they make there profit……..

It's definitely not just you, though I don't believe it's necessarily any worse this year than the last one or 2.

 

I believe the slide started around 2009 or so.  That is when I started noticing an increase in defects that most would consider unacceptable.

 

And it isn't just Lionel.

 

-Dave

 

I have to agree.  I have seen this with their products sometimes as well...it's a bummer to say the least.

I feel bad for the small shop owner who has to except the return and deal with the manufacture to make things right and make sure they satisfy there customer…. when I had my Train Shop twenty years ago my dealer profit was 25 to 30% and when a customer had a problem I would do whatever necessary to make him happy….. Rule #1 the customer is always right….  

Stephen has the right attitude towards the customer.I don't understand the difference between criticism and constructive criticism other then trying to be so "correct".Don't start PSYCHO responding.You have an UN happy customer.You know it is NOT an isolated incident.Everyone I know into Lionel trains includeing myself has and is still having problems with new merchandise right out of the box.Lionel has many videos out on how to modify their products to make them work properly.Fix the problems.Not looking for perfecton.Just some reasonable improvements.I have posted topics on this issue in the past.OGR deletes it.Good night.Nick  

Unfortunately this situation and Built To Order are not terribly compatible, since nearly by definition, there will not be a significant number of spare units available when an exchange is necessary. 

 

Or, if it is a part that can be readily replaced, that would be fine if there are replacements available from the importer - but there are a limited number of parts in many cases since at least some of the importers have admitted they obtain spare parts by buying extra entire units and disassembling them here.

 

-Dave

I can tell you about my experiences with three new Legacy engines that I have purchased recently. One was direct from Lionel and it was defective out of the box with the IR sensor not working at all which is a bummer when you have just got the WiFi LCS system working after it was defective out of the box from Lionel. Second engine received had parts and magnets that had fallen off during shipping. I was able to fix that one since I did not want to pay another $30 in shipping back to Lionel and then wait another month for repairs. Lastly another engine has worked pretty good for 2 months but now the smoke fan motor squeals so loud that it almost drowns out the sound system. I understand that mistakes happen but literally everything I have purchased recently has been defective.

 

I appreciate the customer service people doing the best that they can but a warranty really means nothing in my opinion when the item fails or is broken to begin with. A warranty then to me means that is will not cost the me purchaser too much time and money out of pocket to fix something that should not have failed.

 

I want Lionel to succeed and prosper but not at my expense. My future purchases will be very limited going forward after getting burned so much. Somehow we have lost the art of making things with a small inventory of parts but yet creating enough variety to satiate the public. The past had quality parts that were meant to work under almost any condition and therefore most postwar units are still running today.

 

I wish Lionel would relearn that lesson from themselves. In manufacturing ideas are given names like Six Sigma for quality control. I would rather just have everyone make it right the first time because they care for their customers and their jobs. Not hard but these days I think this goal might not be attainable.

You guys stay away from me. My Lionel and Mth purchase have been fine. 

I just sent an email to Mr. Hitchcock.  And yes, Mr. Putar, I agree.   I feel terrible for the small shop owner who has to pick up the pieces at the end of the day.  I have experience buying MTH and have yet to have such an experience (Although, I am sure these problems exist with every manufacturer).  I agree, Mr. Meyer.  I want Lionel to succeed and prosper and my postwar units are also still running today, with no problems.  I will definitely be more careful when making future purchases.

 

The answer:  To avoid frustration just play with post-war vintage stuff for awhile until the train manufacturers get the message to upgrade quality control and reliability for their new products.  Remember as consumers, YOU have the power to control the destiny of these manufacturers by your buying habits.  Nothing gets more attention than a loss of sales, and don't forget to tell the retail dealers why.  It will get back to Lionel in a hurry.

Constructive Criticism for Lionel

Hello Lionel89

     On Oct. 30th, 2014, Lionel President, Howard Hitchock, was published in a one on one interview on the LCCA You Tube Channel. 

     He talks about the companies Commercial Christmas Displays and the Company is going to have trained Lionel personal on duty to talk with customers.. He comes across as a people person, and I think he would answer your e-mail and maybe take your phone call. I feel you could express for all of us our concerns about quality control issues.

Good Luck

As much as I would like to blame Chinese production for these issues, my experience at least has been that Lionel equipment from the late 90s into the early 2000s has been very reliable.  So my sense, also judging from the firm's complete inability to control the delivery schedule as well, is that they have a real problem getting a handle on the manufacturing process and I don't think it is necessarily a result of geography (although I am sure that geography doesn't in any simplify how to fix the issue).  I am not an expert on manufacturing but having had clients in that line, I am fascinated at the discipline and precision that is required to execute the product in a reliable manner.  If any part of the process breaks down, you will have issues of the type I and others have experienced with Lionel products.  And while the people on this forum are far from the complete universe of hobbyists, my sense is that this group could be called "opinion leaders" as well as significant spenders.  Lionel better get a grip on these issues because there are too many people, like the original poster and myself, who want them to succeed but are tired of the issues.

 

It's a shame and embarrassing when giving a gift, which could not be checked before hand, and the darn thing don't work, or has a missing part.

That's my two cents worth.

Ralph

Its a joke.  I have been collecting and running fifteen years now.  Nice collection but QC is horrible and always a board or something going bad.  Finally gave up and concentrated on on scenery and craftsman structures.  Now I have peace, sanity and more money to save.  Its easy just stop buying...they keep pumping out defective crap because people keep buying.  Just send a message.

I recently watched a show on a commuter train wreck in Japan.  The underlying problem was that, due to things beyond the operator's control made him late, so management jumped down his throat.  They didn't want to hear the "whys" so the operator kept cutting corners to avoid having 3-4 managers yelling at him.  End result was a horrific crash.

 

I expect the same thing is happening in China, can you imagine assembling one of these engines while you have a boss peering over your shoulder telling you to "hurry it up" 12 hours/day.  Not sure how many of these pieces are made, but I guess it's in the thousands.

 

When forced to work at too fast a pace, corners are cut and mistakes (like leaving a piece off) happen.  I also guess that the overall percentage of problems is small, but only Lionel or MTH would know (that's IF everyone of us told them of an issue).

 

I'd like to see the records on this Built To Order stuff, just to see how many problems get reported.  I would hope it would be minimum to nil, given the low number of pieces made.

My biggest complaint with Lionel is "parts" and lack of, especially an engine less then 4 years old. As to others, in case someone asks, I've gotten parts from MTH or found them for engines built in the late 90s. As to Atlas, they sent me several parts for a switcher 10 years old.

 

I haven't bought many new Lionel products over the past few years, but the problem rate for what I have bought has been in the 30% range. Only one actually had to go back to Lionel for warranty service (a Legacy Mikado fan motor) and it was fixed very quickly, but it cost me $30 for shipping. I fixed numerous smaller problems myself (shorts, loose wires, busted detail parts out of the box, etc.). I wasn't always able to get parts from Lionel, but the parts situation seems to have improved since Lionel rebuilt their system. 

 

In dealing with overseas manufacturing, especially in China, there is no substitute for having your own people on site overseeing the manufacturing process. Contractors are always trying to cut corners and there is the language problem as well. I used to date an American woman in Taipei who made a living as a free-lance teddy bear inspector. She would contract with American importers to inspect their product before it was shipped. Most of her business was toys, mainly stuffed animals. Lionel needs to involve itself directly in the production process if it wants to cut the failure rate to an acceptable level.

I have had two issues since the early 70's and today I have mostly Lionel legacy engines. The newer lionel engines are wonderful and I only expect them to get better. 

 

There is no excuse for QC To be what it is sometimes but you have to let the mfgs. know what the problems are. All company's strive to have the best products and to make them right. I am sure Lionel is addressing the problem. 

 

Lets ts keep the bile to a minum. 

Good morning everyone,

 

I see this type of thread every once in a while, and i keep myself from posting on it because it usually turns into a bad thread. I just want to say a few things, i worked for four foreign car dealerships years ago. We had so many recalls and QC problems which still continue today. I was behind the scenes and really saw what was going on. It was extremely difficult for bosses here to get something corrected over there.Yet we have record sales of foreign cars. I'm sure it's the same issue with all the train manufacturers and I don't think Lionel, MTH, or any other train company wants us to receive defective equipment.  I know first hand what they are going through. I thank Lionel and MTH for what they do for us. My point is the QC issue is in just about everything we purchase today.

 

On another note, when any of you who own a Legacy engine get 3 blinks don't panic or rush it back to Lionel. Please listen to me and either blow some compressed air down the stack to make the motor spin, or take the engine off the track and shake it back and fourth a few times.

Either method will move/spin the fan motor armature just enough and take it off a so called dead spot, which  gives  you the 3 blinks. After that press reset only once and you should have no problem. 90 percent of the time this is the issue. Also don't over fill your smoke units.

 

 

Okay I'm taking cover, and I'm prepared for the attack

Alex

You hit the nail on the head Alex. The problem is not being able to communicate with the folks on the other side of the world.

Thanks also for posting the quick fix for the 3 quick flashes. I've solved that problem on 2 of my Legacy engines giving them a quick shot of air.

Alex raises a good point.  Problem is that much of the stuff is under warranty and people such as myself are concerned about doing too much and voiding the warranty.  Lionel is very good about taking you through basic troubleshooting before shipping it back -- I don't need their assistance (don't mean that in a disrespectful way as I have been using trains for 40 years) but if they recommend it I view it as a "safe harbor" to avoid violating the warranty.  It's the same issue with the cars.  I have a track car so I am no stranger to getting my hands dirty.  But both of our daily drivers are under factory extended warranty so out of an abundance of caution they go to their respective dealers for service and I am very hesitant to play with anything on the rare instance when something breaks.  I don't want to hear about it when they don't want to cover a repair because they point at something I did.  Not worth the aggravation.

 

This puts to the side that the expectation of the customer, reasonably, is that the product should be "right" out of the box. 

I've hired a crew on my layout who go around banging on the locomotives with sledge hammers every now and then to keep things moving along when there's trouble.  They tried kicking the locomotives, but they got injured too many times doing that.     They work pretty cheap, but now I've noticed a few dings and dents after they've fixed the tougher problems.  Maybe I'll need to try Alex's suggestion.  

 

David

 

Guess I have been lucky, only had two engine failures out of the box in the past 10 years. One was the recent Legacy Cab Forward that ran but could not switch the engine ID. Turned out it was a non soldered wire.

 

The other was a postwar 681 engine I picked up at York, darn e-unit fell part after a few uses. I thought those things were foolproof

Here's a few examples of the types of physical decoration flaws I've seen:

 

 These 1st 4 are all from the same engine(approximate vintage early Summer 2012).  I'll admit some of the chips I show on the end details (which were also bent, but it's a little hard to see since my pic is a bit out of focus) could be considered nit-picky, but the missing paint right above the number 2011 on the front of the cab was significant to me.

 

I considered the scuffs or mars on the pilots pretty glaring as well.

 

When I inquired with the importer about a replacement, I was told there were none available (this was a direct to customer sale via their club offerings)

 

The last pic is actually masking tape that was left on the engine before it left the factory.  Underneath it, the surface may have been OK, I'm forgetting at the moment.

These next 2 are a powered and dummy pair (vintage also approximately mid-2012, but different manufacturer). 

 

These were apparently the latest (in my items, I can't say if it still happens, but it hasn't happened to me lately) instance of packing/wrapping the trains before the paint was fully cured.  Some of those marks were generated by the styrofoam blocks that are wedged between the handrails and body to prevent the handrails from being bent during shipment.

 

On this one, the club that sold them and the importer did stand up and do a shell replacement.  Apparently the problem was widespread across the entire run.  The club rep that I exchanged them with indicated these were some of the worst from the batch.

 

The next one shows some significant adhesive that either leaked out of the area where the handrail was inserted, or simply was carelessly dripped by the assembler.

 

This is vintage late 2009, right around Christmastime.

 

 

I'll admit the next one could be considered nit-picky, but the wide white field makes the chip where you can see through to the red underneath stand out like a sore thumb (at least to me).

 

Same vintage as the engine above it, Christmas 2009.

 

 

Next we have some missing decoration.  I expect to see this on post-war pieces that have been played with for 50 years, but not on new items right out of the box.

 

I was able to exchange the cars from this set with this problem with my dealer.

 

This is also late 2009.

 

Another sloppy deco.  Missing a significant part of the red ring.

 

Same group of items I picked up in late 2009.

 

 

 

Next is an older version of the wrapping before  the paint was dry.  The importer tried to make these better by touching up the finish (apparently this was quite wide spread), but I still was not happy with the result when it cam back, so unfortunately I couldn't accept the engine.  The pics shown are just representative examples, this was on most of the body.

 

These were about 3 years ago, October 2011.  I remember talking with the importer at York.

 

The 3rd picture is paper literally glued to the truck side frame because the paint was wet when it was wrapped.

 

 

These are also victims of the wrapping before dry scenario, also from October 2011.

 

1st pic is styrofoam imprint on the roof because the unit was packed too soon.  You can see the honeycomb pattern if you look carefully to the left.

 

2nd pic I realize some would consider a nit-pick, but the paint was missing or chipped from the front of the step under the cab door.  (I believe I had 2 instances of this on the AA pair, I only show one)

 

3rd is marks from the plastic sheet the engine was wrapped in because it was wrapped up too early.  This pic is just a representative example, this was present along the sides of both of the bodies.

 

4th is missing grab-irons/handrails. 

 

 

 

I had some other occurrences in mind as well, but I've apparently mis-filed those pics.

 

I will say I have not had the electronic failures to the extent others with problems have been experiencing.

 

These occurrences over a wide range of dates have certainly influenced my willingness to pre-order items over the last few years.

 

-Dave

 

I'll step back after this. Wasn't going to say anything, maybe I'm the only one with this problem. But overall, my biggest frustration is their Fastrack. Nice product, but I never before, have had more problem with the big tracks, then the itty bitty "N" scale track. Suddenly dead spot appear, or etc. having to take track apart to clean the tabs, etc. Or just having to replace because corrosion appears. Loose wires, loose contacts inside switch machines.

I have done more re-work with Fastrack, then any other gauge product ever. Other gauges its simple, clean the track and good as new. With Lionel Fastrack, its a complete different story. If I didn't have a huge amount invested in Fastrack, I'd switch in a heart beat. But as it is, take down scenery, to get at trackwork and start over in many sections. Seriously, until it improves, I won't buy an inch of Fastrack.

I saw first hand how factories operate in China. Here is an actual representation:

 

QC Manager: " Boss we've got a few hundred  units that we cant finish assembly on because we just don't have the parts. We used alternative parts to get by but the finished units don't test as they should.

Production manager:  "You are talking about several thousand dollars in material" "We cannot afford to lose money on that run and we won't meet the monthly quota." "I will lose face if we miss".

QC Manager:  Well boss what should we do?

Production Manager: You know what to do. Box them up and ship them.  

 

 

I had problems with my Marine Corps Alco the rear truck was falling out of the engine and it made this horrible grinding sound. luckily my LHS replaced it for me with a different unit. the new unit had a burnt out bulb fresh out of the box....

The saddest thing to me is people actually believing that Lionel doesn't care.  We constantly demand new products with more features out of them.  Case in point the Big Boy that is coming soon.

The lack of Legacy 990 fiasco had nothing to do with Lionel but was an electronic component that became unavailable. 

The team that is in place now seems to be working diligently to make improvements. Just like politics though whatever they do or don't will irritate folks. 

Search around for complaints on here.  Just propose any issue and folks will say they are doing it wrong or missing the boat.

Lion chief regular and plus are grest examples. Why can't we run them conventional as well as Legacy and their proprietary remotes. 

I like what Lionel is doing and while it can be frustrating to deal with DOA items,  I'll deal with it as it's better than what was available before. I have faith in things improving.

I look forward to visiting this Friday.

Hello lionel89......

 

Just letting you know that you're not alone, I purchased a NEW in the box #18117 blue and yellow Santa Fe F-3 ABA set and that engine had 2 BEND armatures !!!! and it has never been run.  This set was from the LTI days (1993 era) and made in USA too.  I had to replace the armatures then it really run well.  I also replace the plastic gears with the postwar metal ones like the ones used in #2383 F-3's. Gotta love those classic F-3's

 

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany