conventional operation

I have conventional 11'x17' layout and will, hopefully, reconstruct the layout in the next couple of months.

I will probably be adding TMCC to my layout, after all it only involves a single wire to do so!  My current layout has two mainlines, and 13 sidings, all done with blocks.

Most folks that I have seen on this forum, if adding DCS, will use star wiring, which if you are building a new layout is something you might consider upfront to avoid having to make a change down the road.

Jim

is thst a single "very expensive " wire?  im still learning the nomnclature all this equipment. im not even sure how these new mangagement systems work...

i dont know if i still like the idea of throwing switches and planning my moves.. seems a little moe with the operations.. but that is my now very un-educated opinion

domer94

I have two conventional layouts. One is main train room layout, a L-shaped 4x8 and 4x4 configuration. I run O gauge three rail tubular track and O-22 turnouts. I have learned how to wire the turnouts to allow for a simultaneous switching for the Christmas tree layout. I will add this feature the room layout this coming year in a few areas. I enjoy being able to run operations on my layouts by halting the trains, "getting out and throwing the switches". 

I also have added 153 signals to help show which direction the turnout is in.

Yeah I am an old dinosaur when it comes to conventional running. It is what I grew up with.

I do have TMCC also and one day will hook it up. I run that on our club layout.

jeff

Some very interesting things can be done with conventional blocks and relays and other items. I went command control (Legacy & DCS), but have read a few things about different things being done with conventional layouts that were pretty impressive.

I actually erred in my post above, as I will be adding Legacy to my layout so that I can run my current TMCC equipped locomotives and any future Legacy equipped engines. 

Hooking up Lionel TMCC or Lionel Legacy is a single wire to one of the outside rails.  Power to the inside rail is the same for a TMCC/Legacy or conventional layout.  As the rails are tied together, the TMCC/Legacy hook-up is at a single point only.

Jim

domer94,

   The great thing about the DCS & the Legacy with the Powermaster is that you can always run conventionals with your remote controls.  Even as a young boy I wanted to run our Tin Plate Trains by remote control, yep I run the originals via DCS remote control and they run smoother than with a conventional set up. For some Christmas layouts, I also had the full Christmas layout set up for just conventional running, with an old ZW, just for the memories!  During this era we also had a large Office/Gameroom DCS layout.

PCRR/Dave

well, after some consideration and reading, i think i will be going with the legacy system. as you guys mentioned, i can always add another system later. now i just cant wait to get to the point of getting the system and running it....   will still be a while.

Pine Greek Railroad.........

We liked what you said  "Never worry about what other people think, be strong and walk in the way of the Lord"" "AMEN !!!!!"

Tiffany

does anybody run the LIONCHIEF remote engines?  ok i found out they can run on legacy equiped tracks...  but the more i read about it... the lionchief functions pretty much the same as the more advanced systems...  what is the main difference here? other than the different remotes. i bring this up because of the massive price difference between the TMCC / LEGACY and the lionchief. what do the added "bells and whistles" of the TMCC and LEGACY provide that you cant do with lionchief?  forgive all my questions.. im new to this command control world and just trying to learn about all the systems!

Yes, the LC or LC+ locomotives will run on the same track at the same time as Legacy, TMCC, or DCS locomotives.  Obviously, you use the LC or LC+ remote to run that specific locomotive.

Yes, that is true and has been discussed many, many, times. 

It's a progressive thing.  With the different grades of Lionel loco offerings there was a perceived need for an economical, traditional sized, DC motored, command equipped category.  It fills a niche between conventional and TMCC with all new tooling and electronics.  As LionChief and LionChief + grows, TMCC seems to be have all but disappeared these days.  Legacy remains top dog in the scale and performance category.

thanks for your comments. i guess what i was going after was...  all hese command control systems basically do the same thing. after watching youtube clips of the legacy and lionchief locos running, it is not easy to tell the difference. i get it that legacy has one control for as many engines as you want with the screen and all that, but if the remotes on the lionchiefs basically do the same thing as far as sound effects / speed control / coupling , and with being included with the purchase of the loco, i dont see an issue with having a handfull of remotes on the control table and picking one or the other up seperately to control the trains. on the other hand... i have done none of this yet so i have no experience other than speculation , so i could be completely talking out of my butthole. just trying to chart my best course ahead. yes im up watching videos on scenery construction etc etc...  much different friday night from my 20's and 30's

I suggest you take a look at some of the higher priced products and find a club or venue where you can see them perform.  That will probably illustrate why there is a price difference.

If you find LionChief+ attractive as a consumer new to the hobby then guess what?  Lionel's scheme is working!  Next step is to reach for your wallet.

It even seduced me into purchasing an entry level LionChief Pennsy Flyer set , more for evaluation than anything else.  About the only drawback with LC is that there's no method of operating it and conventional engines together.  And of course there are no LC upgrade kits as of yet.  You owe it to yourself to look at Legacy.  The two systems are totally compatible no matter which you decide to go with.

Bruce

However, LionChief+ engines to have the option to operate in conventional mode. So, they can play well with a conventional layout.

If command control only requires two wires hooked to the track why are there books written about it and seperate forums for it?

The books and forums are for the 'Deluxe' versions.

LOL 'Deluxe'. I think the control systems all allow you to ultimately add control "with a wire or 2". You still need to provide power to the tracks. That has the same issues in conventional or control, in that you eventually need more feeds to power the layout. Once you are using command, you will be focused on what you are doing with the controller to make things happen and there are a lot of things you can make happen. That's where the books come in. IMHO, the control systems have separate forums for 2 reasons. 1) they are unique enough in their features, that the questions may be the same, but the answers are in different languages. 2) They are sometimes as factional as ford/chevy republican/democrat and playing in their own sandboxes is better for all, the same way O27 and Scale have their own sandboxes.  In conventional, the more complicated you make things - turnouts, yards, multiple loops, the more you will need to know about wiring and control. Depending on where you learn it, there are books . Instead of focusing on the controller, you will be focusing on switches and anything else you added in. 

Whichever one you enjoy, is the perfect one for you. Going your own path might be the only old dinosaur thing you do here. Today's plan is to do the new thing, whether it works for you or not. I hope to be more of an old dinosaur, someday.

i think im going to go with the legacy as a baseline system , but to be honest , after im done constructing my layout to the point of running trains over the whole thing , the pricetag of the legacy locos is going to kill me. i personally think the pricing of all these o scale locomotives is borderline criminal and a big deterrent to many who want to enjoy this scale to the fullest. in this day and age, i find it repugnant that a companies would gouge loyal consumers with a product retail that is probably 400% of its manufacture cost. even if these things were produced by the most agressive overpaid union contract employees in america (im a union guy by the way), it would not justify charging in excess if $1000 for a big boy. the technology involved is no more than you find in your cable box, and the plastic and die cast raw materials can fit in a shoe box. are they trying to make their price point create some sort of false  "prestige"?  im just venting because ive searched every night for a locomotive that is less that $275 and its almost impossible, and for an average guy to fork out $400 bucks or more for a model train locomotive is just wrong.

marty, there is much merrit in what you say. i would like to have my switches remain as toggles on a master control board even when using a controller. i dont want to become lost in the electronic features and always be punching keys. this is why i was wondering if they had made this whole thing more complicated than required for the sake of technology. this is kind of what caught my eye about the lionchief system.... basic control functions in hand while being able to manually throw switches and do track line-ups

Wiring Your Toy Train Layout by Peter Riddle is a good basic book for wiring. It explains quite a few things. Won't be everything you need to know, but it is a good easy to understand starting point. The basic understanding will carry over to the 'Deluxe' versions as well.

Legacy was preceded by Trainmaster Command Control. It was cheaper, but it did fewer things. Why was it discontinued? The vendors that produced crucial parts for it stopped making them (why? not enough customers) and there were no equivalents available. 

Legacy does more, but at a cost. LionChief and LionChief+ exist because you can't put Legacy electronics in moderately-priced locomotives--they wouldn't be moderately priced anymore if they did. Think of LionChief as radio control that uses track power instead of onboard batteries. Think of LionChief Plus as the same thing, but with a reverse unit added so you can run them on conventional layouts.

It's worth noting that when Lionel was manufacturing in Mt Clemens MI, they were a UAW shop.

The technology inside a Legacy Big Boy may be equivalent to a cable box, but if Lionel knew it could sell as many Big Boys as Motorola or Scientific Atlanta could sell cable boxes, then Big Boys probably wouldn't cost north of a grand. but that's not the case. Not by a long shot. There aren't millions of O-gaugers in this country. If you gathered all of them in one spot you probably wouldn't fill a typical football staduim (largest in the US seats just over 109,000). The number of people who have the room to build a layout that can accommodate a BB is likely a tiny fraction of that. Mass production doesn't help your prices if there aren't enough masses out there to buy your production. The numbers are there for most of the well-known high-tech mass-market gadgetry we're all familiar with. They're not there for model trains, regardless of price.

If the teensy market you do have wants a technologically sophisticated model with contest-quality detailing ready-to-run right out the box, guess what? It's not going to be cheap. And even if they were, there's no way newcomers to this hobby are going to be buying twenty-pound, 36-inch long locomotives en masse for their first layout, any more than you'd buy a brand-new Lamborghini for your 16-year old to learn to drive in. Even if you could afford to.

---PCJ

Disclaimer (I like MTH trains and run DCS)

I'd take a serious look at MTH stuff. Every PS2 and PS3 can be controlled easily in DCS, but also conventional and also one at a time with a handheld controller. They have a ton of these locos in the 280 - 400 range. Their starter set locos can pull 15 or 20 cars and have the same control electronics as their most pricey locos. They low end locos have less detail and less lighting, but have all the running quality, of the higher end stuff. Each will creep along at a snails pace and maintain speed. With many vendors lower end locos you sacrifice pulling power and speed control.

In short, I'd start conventional. Pick any PS2 or PS3 MTH loco that catches your eye and run it against a Lionel that you choose after asking questions here about which one to start with and make your choice from  there. Both systems will allow you to run the others locos in conventional, so you won't be wasting a loco purchase. I think you will find that the quality of the lower priced locos is better in MTH.

i was just on grahamstrains site and it gave me a bit of hope here... some pretty reasonable prices relatively speaking. i definitly havent ruled out DCS, but was leaning toward legacy dut to the fact that i get the impression it has more room to expand , however im probably overthinking this whole thing. im just trying to get it right the first time around...

Take it slow. That will help you get it right the first time. Which is what you are doing. You can't overthink it, just don't buy the control system until the layout is built and you will have plenty of time to think it through.

I started my layout 1983 and I have four main lines with three section blocks per line and blocks to all the yard sidings. You may find this book helpful. Good Luck.

 Click image to enlarge,

domer94,

Look at as a 1-2yr project. Readying the room, building the table, acquiring track, trains and control along the way. You don't really need new stuff for everything. You can find fair deals on the forum by members. Yes, O is not cheap, but they look great!

Remember that you are not just limited to Lionel engines or purchasing new engines.

You can find TMCC in Atlas, Weaver, K-Line, and 3rd Rail engines as well.  There are also a lot of Like New engines for sale on the secondary market.  Last month I purchased a mint (still sealed in the box) Atlas GP35 with TMCC on the OGR for sale sub-forum for $275.

I am adding Legacy as a baseline system to my layout so that I can run my non-Lionel TMCC equipped engines.  I also plan on adding the EER TMCC Cruise Commander ($120) and the EER TMCC CC Lite ($50) to a few of my conventional engines.

Jim

There's no need to purchase a command control system immediately.  If you follow the conventional way of wiring a layout it only requires basically one wire to add Legacy or TMCC at some future date.  In the mean time run whatever you please in conventional mode.  The book that trainroomgary recommends will show you all sorts of wiring tricks to get maximum enjoyment out of conventional running.

I believe DCS prefers the "star" method of wiring and should be taken into consideration while building a layout.  Others familiar with DCS will know what else to recommend to avoid pitfalls.

Point is, you can go basic and remain economical, go all out with every control system available or settle for something in between.  It's all good.  Who knows, you might find conventional operation suits you perfectly.  No matter what you decide, constructing the layout around conventional operation methods provides the best environment to expand into CC.

Better questions to consider at this point are "how big?" "who's track?" and "second mortgage?"