Cost Of Present Day Passenger Cars

I would guess the cost of the body shell is the most expensive item, since, for injection molding at least, the tooling would need to be so big, and could only accommodate relatively few prototypes, since passenger cars were pretty much custom built and not mass produced like freight cars. Maybe if keeping the price down is the objective, then we need to be willing to accept more generic representations rather than prototype specific accuracy.

Bill in FtL

I know this comment will make some cringe but...

I would be happy with accurately done plastic cars if it allowed them to drop significantly in cost. Obviously my first choice is aluminum but if the choice is "plastic or no accurate scale passenger cars from GGD", I will gladly take the plastic ones.

I arrived late to the GGD party and am constantly looking for past offerings I would have ordered had I know about them at the time of their release ('48 Century, 51 Super Chief). I have picked up many sets on the secondary market but the ones I am still looking for are very hard to find. I was able to order the first run of the El Cap from GGD and currently have a Sunset limited on order. I was disappointed to read that these incredible passenger sets might be coming to an end because of high production costs. Hopefully all will work out alright. 

BigJohn&theWork posted:

... I was disappointed to read that these incredible passenger sets might be coming to an end because of high production costs. ...

Be thankful these things aren't done in brass!!!    I heard a number in the vicinity of $750 for the upcoming GN Empire Builder's super-dome/lounge car.    That's more than I want to spend for Lionel's 0-8-0 Legacy switcher -- let alone a single passenger car.  I can see lots of us being left in the dust -- either by choice or fiscal limitation -- given the nonsense that's going on overseas nowadays.  There's only a very small number of folks who are gonna be willing to spend these kinds of dollars going forward.

David

I have a feeling its the labor. If you've ever opened up one of scotts cars, you'll find that all of those fixtures are separately installed chairs and tables. Its not a molded article. Combine that with the window punching, painting, decaling, assembly (without scratching anything), and its probably not cheap to have someone put those things together the right way. 

I've got the El Cap and I bout sh** when I figured out the price for 12 cars then I put a set of atlas o f7s which added another $1500. No I'm looking at getting the Empire Builder and for 14 cars and 4 locos it's a staggering $7100. If I do get it, it'll prolly be the last GGD passenger set I get unless Scott reruns the daylight train. I also got on the GGD boat late and I'm wishing I would've gotten in On the Super Chief and the Daylight sets

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

... I was disappointed to read that these incredible passenger sets might be coming to an end because of high production costs. ...

Be thankful these things aren't done in brass!!!    I heard a number in the vicinity of $750 for the upcoming GN Empire Builder's super-dome/lounge car.    That's more than I want to spend for Lionel's 0-8-0 Legacy switcher -- let alone a single passenger car.  I can see lots of us being left in the dust -- either by choice or fiscal limitation -- given the nonsense that's going on overseas nowadays.  There's only a very small number of folks who are gonna be willing to spend these kinds of dollars going forward.

David

I am one of those who have the Santa Fe Full dome on order. It's a car I have always wanted so I figured I'd order it now as I know it will be done correctly despite the high cost (thanks for reminding me). Yes, it is a lot of money for a single passenger car.

I was hoping there would be another Santa Fe passenger train announced which would have had the full dome in it (Texas Chief... Experts would that be correct?). If so, GGD should already have the tooling for most of the cars which could mean that they could offset some of the cost of the great dome in the savings from not needing to make new tooling for the other cars. Enough orders may even mean that they could do it in aluminum instead of brass. Who knows, with the upcoming announcement of the PA's maybe another Santa Fe train would do well. 

Anyway, I'm sure it's much more complicated than all that. Just wishful thinking on my part. 

$600 for a full dome, $285 for the other cars. I cant see this as sustainable. Its too bad too, they mike nice shtuff

The Sunset/GGD Santa Fe and Great Northern full length dome cars will be done in brass as were the cars on display at the recent TCA York show. The cars on display were both built from Midland Reproduction kits which cost $175 each for the basic kit. The trucks were Wasatch at $150 per pair. Add to that the cost of decals, interiors, underbody parts,  etc and about 30-35  hours per car labor to build and paint.

rheil posted:

The Sunset/GGD Santa Fe and Great Northern full length dome cars will be done in brass as were the cars on display at the recent TCA York show. The cars on display were both built from Midland Reproduction kits which cost $175 each for the basic kit. The trucks were Wasatch at $150 per pair. Add to that the cost of decals, interiors, underbody parts,  etc and about 30-35  hours per car labor to build and paint.

If at $600 for a full dome, $285 for the other cars - a bargain.  Too many folks have unrealistic expectations of getting accurate scale models at toy train prices.

30-35 hours of labor.....let's see.....at my hourly rate that puts a car at about $6k....and if I put out on a table at a show for sale for $600, someone will ask me if I'll take $200.......

I dont have unrealistic expectations of the trains I have very realistic expectations of my checking account. I just cant buy that many trains like that. Add to that the Lionel and MTH stuff I have on order and im pretty much going HOLY SH**!!!

The cost of nearly every component in an aluminum car has gone up in price.  The aluminum extrusion does not represent a large cost to the project as the extruding machine simply creates a blank for any length you choose.  The costs are in the raw materials, the trucks are not cheap as they are correct for the car type, the labor is a factor, wheelsets are more expensive, there is a tool required for each window configuration, the interiors and people factor in and finally the lighting.  While $300 sounds like a lot, to build the generic K-line style aluminum car today, it would be in the same price range as what GGD is currently offering.  That's the market at work.  I still think these cars are worth the money as they are simply great train sets that will offer a lifetime of play value.  You don't see a lot of these for resale anymore so I have learned to order when I have the chance.  As Scott said, the opportunity may not be around much longer.

Matt Makens posted:

I dont have unrealistic expectations of the trains I have very realistic expectations of my checking account. I just cant buy that many trains like that. Add to that the Lionel and MTH stuff I have on order and im pretty much going HOLY SH**!!!

Maybe application of a more selective restrictive purchasing criteria and plan should be put into action?  Combine that with selling off the un-needed items.     

I buy almost nothing except cars and the detail parts needed to complete projects that will appropriately fit my layout and modeling objectives; no one has brought in an engine that I would buy new in many years.

Almost everything else I have has been getting put on tables for sale at O scale and other model RR events now for the past 2 years. 

Thanks Jonathan!

I can see the research increasing the cost and and instructing the machine (manually or CDC) where to cut the windows may have an impact as well.  The actual cutting of a window, in the correct place or not, should be the same.

I'm with Martin, I don't randomly buy anything anymore, if it's not specifically what I'm looking for I don't buy it.

I know what goes into trying to build a model of a passenger car I want (Martin, still got that Union Station car sitting in a box) and at $300 a RTR car is a no-brainer of a deal.  But like Matt said, the checking account may or may not cooperate.

With that said...can't wait for the Meteor to begin production

I can't see many people buying an "incomplete" passenger car. It seems as if people's demands can no longer be filled for what people want to spend.

GG1 4877 posted:

...  You don't see a lot of these for resale anymore so I have learned to order when I have the chance.  As Scott said, the opportunity may not be around much longer.

I realize I'm comparing apples and oranges here... But now that Lionel has gone to ABS passenger cars, I don't see folks clamoring for their 18" aluminum cars.  And those cars came with better detailed interiors than the 21" cars Lionel is making now.  Seems folks get caught up in the new stuff that Lionel is producing... sort of the shiny brand new car syndrome.

It would be interesting to see if GGD aluminum cars held a premium value in the market if Scott decided to switch away from aluminum down the road.

David 

Bob Delbridge posted:

I'm with Martin, I don't randomly buy anything anymore, if it's not specifically what I'm looking for I don't buy it.

Yeah, that random must buy everything in whatever colored box syndrome/ behavior pathology is one that has to be surgically excised..........

I know what goes into trying to build a model of a passenger car I want (Martin, still got that Union Station car sitting in a box) and at $300 a RTR car is a no-brainer of a deal.

Got one of those Union Station kits myself on the bench to get into since it bounced back to me to deal with in my copious spare time  -- maybe after I finish putting a new cane seat into a chair.....

  But like Matt said, the checking account may or may not cooperate.

Got to get creative on these things, like selling the children off for medical experiments, or knocking over Wa-wa's, or running for political office - creative financing....

With that said...can't wait for the Meteor to begin production

And, I can sit back and watch, and just build some more cars to sell off while waiting for or maybe just building my own version of a PRR Yellow Kid train,

I feel blessed, as I already have most of the passenger cars that I want , including a set of SGL Brass Reading turtleback blimps.  The SGL set of 5 cars (1 grill and 4 passenger cars) sold for $1199, in 2002.  If you put the $1199 into an inflation calculator that comes out to about $1606, or about $321 per car.  So,  I wonder if given the increase in production prices in the East, that $400 a car may not be unreasonable for a brass car?  (I really lucked out in my SGL set, getting all 5 cars for only $435 on eBay a couple of years ago.)

A couple of years ago, I decided to right-size my collection.  I decided that I wanted more prototypical trains, even if it meant, I had fewer trains.  I feel blessed to have four sets of cars (1 brass, 2 aluminum, and 1 plastic) and there really is only one more set of cars (B&O heavyweights) in plastic that I would like to add.

I'm not adverse to having ABS cars as long as they have the detail of brass/aluminum cars!

Jim

I have been extremely blessed, I have all the freight cars I will ever need and am now unlaoding the ones I dont need. I have some very nice passenger trains including the Atlas O CZ and GGD El Cap. Ive been able to afford to order the Lionel UP Excursion Train and the Broadway Ltd train. I have a great many very nice trains and am getting very selective on what I am buying these days. The only new set I'm adding is the Empire Builder and my uncle is the one who talked me into it after I tried to talk him out of it.Im just filling out what I already have. I just want a set of CNW cars cuz I sold my set when I freaked out about needing money last summer. Didnt need to do that and wish I hadnt.

The single most expensive cost?  Tooling, and for the aluminum passenger cars the window punches.  Each window pattern is unique pair (or more) of punch tools.  But the cost of the tooling for aluminum is minor compared to plastic.

rdunniii posted:

The single most expensive cost?  Tooling, and for the aluminum passenger cars the window punches.  Each window pattern is unique pair (or more) of punch tools.  But the cost of the tooling for aluminum is minor compared to plastic.

quite an insane way to approach a easy task for an NCC milling machine,  it would take a single fixture and then a "tape/ program"  for each side of each car.  this would work for practically any body material, metal or plastic.

overlandflyer posted:

rdunniii posted:

The single most expensive cost?  Tooling, and for the aluminum passenger cars the window punches.  Each window pattern is unique pair (or more) of punch tools.  But the cost of the tooling for aluminum is minor compared to plastic.

quite an insane way to approach a easy task for an NCC milling machine,  it would take a single fixture and then a "tape/ program"  for each side of each car.  this would work for practically any body material, metal or plastic.

I agree with you 100%.  And actually so does the Scott (and Mike Mangini and...).  BUT, the builder says fine, it will cost you 125% (or some other 100%+) of the way we want to do it.

rheil posted:

The Sunset/GGD Santa Fe and Great Northern full length dome cars will be done in brass as were the cars on display at the recent TCA York show. The cars on display were both built from Midland Reproduction kits which cost $175 each for the basic kit. The trucks were Wasatch at $150 per pair. Add to that the cost of decals, interiors, underbody parts,  etc and about 30-35  hours per car labor to build and paint.

Robert,

Would the final production Santa Fe Big Dome Lounge 2-rail car have Wasatch Model Company trucks? I remember reading on another thread on these forums that Golden Gate Depot was supposed to start using ball-bearings in the trucks beginning with these cars.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

I have the Atlas Zephyr set except for the conductor's dome. Atlas made those cars for an average of $150.00 and I am most pleased with the set. I am most pleased with the cars.

Dick

    I picked up some K-line Broadway limited semi-scale cars years back. Right price, though I admittedly thought "Yuck, plastic". Growing up around aluminum dome cars and even heavy Madisons, I figured they would be good for a siding in the back.

   What happened was I fell in love with the things. Light weight, looked good, ran good. I bet those old PW carbody diesels could have pulled 50ft worth of these cars, and too fast too.

 Seeing how I'd be lucky to EAT after a single metal car at some of the prices I hear here today, I'm all for lower cost and better exterior looks, even if it is in plastic.

   But I also have some yellow C&O baby Madisons. Run well enough, but I would not buy those again. Paid more than I did for the k-lines too Good for the background, and at a distance, but too cheap up close.

Maybe I should mention I'm also not quick to harshly judge "lesser" train cars. I like scale too, but consider myself a toy fan first. Better to return to tin again than make tons of cheap stuff that would look right at home sitting in a bin at the dollar store.

When I had some On3 I bought a brass passenger car for $100 and I thought that was high. It was way too heavy.   The prices today are unreal.

naveenrajan posted

Robert,

Would the final production Santa Fe Big Dome Lounge 2-rail car have Wasatch Model Company trucks? I remember reading on another thread on these forums that Golden Gate Depot was supposed to start using ball-bearings in the trucks beginning with these cars.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Naveen,

The trucks would be Sunset but similar to the Wasatch on the Midland domes.

Robert,

Thanks for the update. Would you know the deadline to preorder these separate Big Dome lounge cars?

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Cost, quality, detail, accuracy. Always a balance between them. I don't have the desire to spend 8k on a consist but I will spend 2. 

Have the 2r TTG Harrimans on order and I'm glad they are plastic. I figure the lighter weight of plastic cars will make it easier for eight cars to be pulled by the older brass loco I plan to paint to match them.

They are scale shorter cars. Space limitations have made me choose very carefully, find what I want, then strike when the iron's hot. The prices are only going to keep escalating. When they finally collapse you may not be able find what you want and they certainly won't be making it then.

Now if I like what I see when Scott's Alco PA/PB sets are announced then I will pick them up in 3r and order another Harriman set in UP yellow for the same reasons.

Then I'm DONE with passenger. And likely done in general for a long while unless some pretty specific steam locomotives and cars get built. Or I see a quality older piece for the right price.

Which is why I'm ok at the $169/car for the GGD sets. 

What might tempt me for another passenger consist at current rising prices? Well....a CNW ES Yellow Jacket 4-6-2 and matching streamlined passenger cars. But I doubt that will happen and a complete older Weaver set is impossible to find.....

The Big Dome trucks would have been the same as the El Cap diner but that tooling was kept by the old builder and must be replaced.  So it should be an improved version of those.

I don’t own any Wasatch Models trucks but from photos I had seen in the past on E-Bay & Brasstrains.com, it looked like they had more details than the trucks on my El Capitan Diner. The side frames on either side on the Wasatch trucks appeared to be connected while the side frames on the El Capitan cars seem to be split in the middle. I am not sure if Golden Gate Depot could make a truck as detailed as the Wasatch Model trucks due to the compromises that need to be made for the 3-rail market. The ball-bearings in the trucks are appealing though.

Would anyone know if the Wasatch Model trucks would be a direct replacement to the trucks that come with the El Capitan Diner or for these upcoming Santa Fe Big Dome lounge cars?

Also Wasatch Models lists most of their passenger car trucks as sold out. How did Golden Gate Depot get them for the samples shown at the Chicago O-Scale meet?

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

naveenrajan posted:

I don’t own any Wasatch Models trucks but from photos I had seen in the past on E-Bay & Brasstrains.com, it looked like they had more details than the trucks on my El Capitan Diner. The side frames on either side on the Wasatch trucks appeared to be connected while the side frames on the El Capitan cars seem to be split in the middle. I am not sure if Golden Gate Depot could make a truck as detailed as the Wasatch Model trucks due to the compromises that need to be made for the 3-rail market. The ball-bearings in the trucks are appealing though.

Would anyone know if the Wasatch Model trucks would be a direct replacement to the trucks that come with the El Capitan Diner or for these upcoming Santa Fe Big Dome lounge cars?

Also Wasatch Models lists most of their passenger car trucks as sold out. How did Golden Gate Depot get them for the samples shown at the Chicago O-Scale meet?

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Naveen,

The Wasatch trucks do have more detail than GGD trucks which is reflected in the pricing of each. As for the cars on display at Chicago the Santa Fe car is owned by a private individual who has previously posted on this topic.

The GN car is owned by Harry Hieke who built it for a customer about 10 years ago. The fellow died and I purchased the car back for Harry at an auction last year.

Both cars were built when these Wasatch trucks were available.

naveenrajan posted:

Also Wasatch Models lists most of their passenger car trucks as sold out. How did Golden Gate Depot get them for the samples shown at the Chicago O-Scale meet?

It's not uncommon for there to be items "reserved" for archiving, future use, advertising, and/ or displays. This doesn't apply only to trains. I've had similar "sales" items from other companies. I would have loved to have paid for and kept, but if the owner wanted them back, back they go, likely into a dark closet somewhere.

The trucks with the Midland Reproduction great domes were made for the dome by Midland Reproductions.  And they are just wrong.  They are some type of fantasy truck taking a heavyweight 3-axle truck and modernizing it.  The GGD model will come with the correct 61-CDO trucks.

with the 3d printing taking off , cnc, , these manufactures  are pricing themselves out of business,

I wrote in another post,  let  small machine shops here make these things,  china will be crying  for work, sorry you lose, watch their prices drop. .

riki posted:

with the 3d printing taking off , cnc, , these manufactures  are pricing themselves out of business,

Ok, so you can probably get a scale body shell 3D printed right now for ~$250.  Someone has to provide all of the CAD work for the printer ='s time which last I checked also ='s $'s.  Now you have a shell w/o any details, a floor, and underbody, and interior, trucks, couplers, paint & lettering (probably forgetting something...) -- ok a floor and underbody could also be dome 3D.  More CAD and printed costs.  Interior - maybe also 3D - more CAD and printer costs.  Trucks -- got sources for metal trucks handy??  Got to get those made unless you have a passenger car truck tree out back and can pick them when they are ripe.  Paint --- given how much P&M goes on here related to color and quality of paint jobs and then lettering - more $'s.

I wrote in another post,  let  small machine shops here make these things,  china will be crying  for work, sorry you lose, watch their prices drop. .

Well, that sounds like a really good business opportunity that you should go after and let us all know how well it turns out.  Can't imagine why no one else has bothered to try to do that either.............why don't you take a nice brass car down to some shop and ask them what they would charge to make 25 exact copies and get back to us on that. 

I have a small machine shop.  When we finally quit machining drivers, it was because $80/axle just to 2-rail Williams drivers was not enough to pay the light bill, let alone make a profit.

Everybody always knows how to do it better than the guy actually doing it. I think Scott has done an amazing job in producing incredible models, listening to his costumers and supporting his products. It makes me sad to see ever increasing prices and I'll be even more sad to see the line dropped altogether. I dont see price points that high being sustainable

here is a small foundry ,,sinner brothers, they do brass castings,  I had them make some catches for my 392e cause the ones you buy,,that  they say are right ,,are wrong, 

they will rough cast , you finish,  they do some castings for chula vista live steamers,

you want brass here you go,,,

riki posted:

here is a small foundry ,,sinner brothers, they do brass castings,  I had them make some catches for my 392e cause the ones you buy,,that  they say are right ,,are wrong, 

they will rough cast , you finish,  they do some castings for chula vista live steamers,

you want brass here you go,,,

Do they also do "investment castings", i.e. lost wax?