Cruise M Install

First I'm no expert but I had the same issue a few years ago on a Lionel Atlantic and called tech support and the technician told me the directions are not always correct which had me connect the serial wire (not sure if that's the correct term) to the wrong pin, he called with the correct pin number and everything was fine. Also I was installing a cruise commander and was having issues and the directions in my hand were different than what was online. But they are great products.

First off, technically the CC-M requires the R2LC-C08 or later.  That being said, it should work with the R2LC-C07 as the only difference between the two is the polarity of the lighting outputs.

Did you program the engine type, it should be AUX1/4 for this locomotive?  Are you SURE the serial data is getting to the 10-pin connector on the CC-M?

Also, if this is an older CC-M, you may need a buffer for the serial data, this engine uses a 2-wire IR transmitter that loads the serial data significantly.

Thanks everybody who chimed in. The serial data was definitely getting to the 10 pin connector... just the wrong end! I put it on the correct end of the connector for pin 1 and it works great. However, I don't have a chuff, whistle, bell, or rear coupler, so I either screwed up the IR transmitter or maybe that is a sign of overloading the serial data? I did run across some posts on the buffer for this earlier today.

Thanks again.

Gary

@nwfan1 posted:

Thanks everybody who chimed in. The serial data was definitely getting to the 10 pin connector... just the wrong end! I put it on the correct end of the connector for pin 1 and it works great. However, I don't have a chuff, whistle, bell, or rear coupler, so I either screwed up the IR transmitter or maybe that is a sign of overloading the serial data? I did run across some posts on the buffer for this earlier today.

Thanks again.

Gary

Sometimes that happens, ….your serial data stream is being eaten up by the Cruise M. You more than likely didn’t screw up anything. You either have to add a 3 wire IR transmitter, or you can try a buffer …..the data stream is just being robbed by the Cruise M, …….

Pat

I think the Cruise M has a serial input and serial output. When installing it in diesels, I connect the R2LC serial output into the CC-M. Then I connect the CC-M serial output to the RailSounds Board serial input. This often involves cutting a trace on the motherboard or removing the existing pin that connects the R2LC serial output directly to the RailSounds serial input.

I don’t know if the CC-M serial output will drive an IR LED though.

What is also unclear to me is if the serial data is also reversed in polarity (like the LEDs) when using the R2LC C07 board.

IIRC, when I was working on my copy of the 28063 PRR T1 the motherboard had the IR LED connected to the R2LC serial data pin and to chassis ground which indicates normal polarity.

I’ve heard that some revisions of the R2LC and/or R4LC had an inverted serial stream.

No, on the diesel version (also labeled Odyssey replacement) of CC M, the output is a duty pulse rate based on speed.

@rplst8 posted:

I think the Cruise M has a serial input and serial output. When installing it in diesels, I connect the R2LC serial output into the CC-M. Then I connect the CC-M serial output to the RailSounds Board serial input. This often involves cutting a trace on the motherboard or removing the existing pin that connects the R2LC serial output directly to the RailSounds serial input.

Again, do not do that in a diesel install.

FWIW, I made this mistake in the past and learned from it. It's a difference in the firmware of the CC-M models or types- one was programmed to be a replacement for Odyssey DCDS that has the pulse output for telling railsounds to ramp up prime mover (not serial data out). The steam variant (also maybe called the universal variant) firmware did have serial data out, and this allowed the CC-M to give the user audible whistle sounds to indicate conditions or settings of the CC-M along with normal sounds passing through.

Also, this being an R2LC C07, feature code (AUX1 + number) is what sets the data output type (inverted, normal).

So my bet is, follow the sound advice, first set correct feature code- that's in the manual and setup programming steps, and consider a serial data buffer- since we lost sounds- it's likely one or both of those IMO.

The generic diesel and steam CC-M has the serial output, as Vern correctly points out, the Odyssey version outputs a signal called duty cycle for controlling the ramp up/down of the diesel prime mover sounds.  I posted a couple of 'scope pictures at one point, but I can't find them now.

A topic discussing if a Cruise M and R2LC C07 are compatible https://ogrforum.com/...-commander-m-problem

I take away that it is, even if documentation from ERR says 08-13 code R2LCs.

The only difference between the R2LC-C07 and the R2LC-C08 is the polarity of the lighting outputs in command mode, the serial data is exactly the same between the two.

The C07 board had the lighting polarity reversed to correct a production issue with the TMCC C420 locomotive, it was the only place the C07 was intended to be used.  The C420 mistakenly reversed the polarity of the LED lighting in their wiring.  Rather than modify a whole production run, Lionel simply reprogrammed the R2LC to invert the lighting output polarity and used that "special" board for that model.  There are even instructions how to modify the C420 wiring to use the C08 version of the R2LC.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The only difference between the R2LC-C07 and the R2LC-C08 is the polarity of the lighting outputs in command mode, the serial data is exactly the same between the two.

The C07 board had the lighting polarity reversed to correct a production issue with the TMCC C420 locomotive, it was the only place the C07 was intended to be used.  The C420 mistakenly reversed the polarity of the LED lighting in their wiring.  Rather than modify a whole production run, Lionel simply reprogrammed the R2LC to invert the lighting output polarity and used that "special" board for that model.  There are even instructions how to modify the C420 wiring to use the C08 version of the R2LC.

My (and the OP’s) PRR T1 came with C07 boards.

@Vernon Barry posted:

No, on the diesel version (also labeled Odyssey replacement) of CC M, the output is a duty pulse rate based on speed.

Again, do not do that in a diesel install.

Did the OP say he has an Odyssey diesel version of the CC-M? The 6-28063 PRR T1 did not have Odyssey.

The instructions that came with my CC-M explicitly call out the serial output on the CC-M. I installed them in my Atlas SD35s and wired them this way.

FWIW, I made this mistake in the past and learned from it. It's a difference in the firmware of the CC-M models or types- one was programmed to be a replacement for Odyssey DCDS that has the pulse output for telling railsounds to ramp up prime mover (not serial data out). The steam variant (also maybe called the universal variant) firmware did have serial data out, and this allowed the CC-M to give the user audible whistle sounds to indicate conditions or settings of the CC-M along with normal sounds passing through.

Also, this being an R2LC C07, feature code (AUX1 + number) is what sets the data output type (inverted, normal).

The AUX1 code is what sets the polarity of data? Which codes set what?

@rplst8 posted:

Did the OP say he has an Odyssey diesel version of the CC-M? The 6-28063 PRR T1 did not have Odyssey.

The instructions that came with my CC-M explicitly call out the serial output on the CC-M. I installed them in my Atlas SD35s and wired them this way.

The AUX1 code is what sets the polarity of data? Which codes set what?

I don't really care what the instructions say, the DIESEL Odyssey version of the ERR CC-M does NOT put out serial data on pin-2 of the ten pin connector.   I've personally verified this.  Obviously, if he has the Generic CC-M kit, it should have serial data.  Also note, these have been known to get mixed up, I got some generic kits that had duty cycle and not serial data on pin-2.

@rplst8 posted:

The AUX1 code is what sets the polarity of data? Which codes set what?

FWIW, a topic going over the physical hardware and code versions of R2LC (C06, C07, C08,....) https://ogrforum.com/...48#75481396463730348

More along what you asked about feature code programming AUX1 +XXX, yes, there are 1, 2, and 3 digit feature codes.

https://ogrforum.com/...06#22970455034804206

STEAM

7 = Serial Data “UN” Inverted.  Keeps serial data on in conventional

4 = Front Headlight on all the time; Rear light directional

0 = Inverts serial data from R2LC to RailSounds

DIESEL

8 = AUX 9 Boost for Smoke (14V versus 12)

6 = Smoke out as CAB Light

5 = Smoke Output as pulsing Strobe

7 maybe for IR Tethered engines

3 for wired harness??

This was provided by Jon Z:

;SET OPERATING MODES
;(ONLY COMES HERE IF VALID ENGINE AND PROGRAM SWITCH IS ON)
;NOTE: THIS SECTION WAS REWRITTEN TO INCLUDE AUX1-8 AND 9 ON 3/22/99 BY RL.
;USING THE MODES BELOW, THE INVERSION ONLY TAKES PLACE IF AUX1-0 IS THE LAST
;COMMAND ISSUED. I.E. 7-4-0 WILL ENABLE COMM IN CONVENTIONAL, BE PUT IN STEAM
;MODE, AND INVERT THE SERIAL COMMUNICATION CHANNEL.

;NUMERIC 0 = INVERTED COMM OUTPUT
;        1 = STEAM MODE, NORMAL COMM., WORKING LIGHT
;        2 = DIESEL MODE, NORMAL COMM., AUX TRIAC
;        3 = DISABLE SERIAL COMM IN CONVENTIONAL (EXCEPT CHUFFS)
;        4 = STEAM MODE   NORMAL COMM.
;        5 = DIESEL MODE, NORMAL COMM, MARS LIGHT
;        6 = DIESEL MODE, NORMAL COMM, CAB LIGHT
;        7 = ENABLE SERIAL COMM IN CONVENTIONAL (SEND DIRECTION COMMANDS)
;        8 = DIESEL MODE, NORMAL COMM, SMOKE CONTROL
;        9 = NOT USED

For steam with the CC-M installed, I universally use AUX1/4 as the engine type, for diesel with the CC-M I use AUX1/8.

If the OP says he has a steam locomotive, a model without Odyssey, why are we talking about the Diesel Odyssey version of the Cruise M?

@rplst8 posted:

If the OP says he has a steam locomotive, a model without Odyssey, why are we talking about the Diesel Odyssey version of the Cruise M?

Because you brought up a scenario.

@rplst8 posted:

I think the Cruise M has a serial input and serial output. When installing it in diesels, I connect the R2LC serial output into the CC-M. Then I connect the CC-M serial output to the RailSounds Board serial input. This often involves cutting a trace on the motherboard or removing the existing pin that connects the R2LC serial output directly to the RailSounds serial input.

Again, you brought up a scenario in a diesel, and are not specific on the type of CC-M.

As pointed out it's possible to get the wrong type of CC-M with a different firmware, and then this "through" method of serial data rewiring and cutting traces can be problematic.

I understand mixups happen, but how is one to get the confirmation “honks” from the CC-M without wiring it through? I found these very useful when confirming both units in a consist were in the same speed step, cruise, and motor control mode. If you can’t trust Scott to send the right parts, who can you trust?

I also mentioned that the locomotives were made by Atlas which never had Odyssey.

Finally, I’ve found that there’s less chance of loading down the serial data too much if you use the pass through method rather than driving both the RS input AND the CC-M via a splice.

The Cruise M has a buffered serial input.  It should not be loading down the RxLC serial data line.  See attached diagram, from the ElectricRR archives.  The Duty Out signal can be a pulse for Diesels motor RPM ramper, or on Steamers, a serial echo with horn queues to support various programming selections.

Hopefully this will help the installation of the Cruise M.

@SantaFeFan posted:

The Cruise M has a buffered serial input.  It should not be loading down the RxLC serial data line.  See attached diagram, from the ElectricRR archives.  The Duty Out signal can be a pulse for Diesels motor RPM ramper, or on Steamers, a serial echo with horn queues to support various programming selections.

Can you tell that to all the Cruise M’s I’ve had to either buffer, or add a 3 wire IR transmitter to please? …..Clearly, they didn’t get the memo,……😁😁😁

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Can you tell that to all the Cruise M’s I’ve had to either buffer, or add a 3 wire IR transmitter to please? …..Clearly, they didn’t get the memo,……😁😁😁

Pat

PAT, the original release of the Cruise M needed some buffering, so the buffer was added to the design. This would have been many, many, years before I retired..  The Cruise M design is almost 20 years old!  I posted the schematic so the folks who like to understand the design can see how it is wired up internally.  I can't speak to what is being manufactured, my lack of involvement in ElectricRR happened in 2006 when Ken was the person who managed the company.  I was pulled into many other projects!

It is possible the particular setup may require some other "help", so folks with your talent are always appreciated to take all the designs I created and find a use for them to make the hobby more fun!

jon

@SantaFeFan posted:

PAT, the original release of the Cruise M needed some buffering, so the buffer was added to the design. This would have been many, many, years before I retired..  The Cruise M design is almost 20 years old!  I posted the schematic so the folks who like to understand the design can see how it is wired up internally.  I can't speak to what is being manufactured, my lack of involvement in ElectricRR happened in 2006 when Ken was the person who managed the company.  I was pulled into many other projects!

It is possible the particular setup may require some other "help", so folks with your talent are always appreciated to take all the designs I created and find a use for them to make the hobby more fun!

jon

I just looked up the circuit design file date with the addition of the buffer..
On 7/9/2007 was the date I made the change to the design.....

@SantaFeFan posted:

The Cruise M has a buffered serial input.  It should not be loading down the RxLC serial data line.  See attached diagram, from the ElectricRR archives.  The Duty Out signal can be a pulse for Diesels motor RPM ramper, or on Steamers, a serial echo with horn queues to support various programming selections.

What was the software change, or maybe some hardware change, that reduced the issue that the CC-M wouldn't recognize the serial data?  I know a number of years ago, the CC-M was much more picky about the amplitude of the serial data than it is nowadays.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

What was the software change, or maybe some hardware change, that reduced the issue that the CC-M wouldn't recognize the serial data?  I know a number of years ago, the CC-M was much more picky about the amplitude of the serial data than it is nowadays.

The hardware was changed to add the buffer as indicated, and the software has not changed for a very long time; probably since around the 2007 time frame....

@SantaFeFan posted:

PAT, the original release of the Cruise M needed some buffering, so the buffer was added to the design. This would have been many, many, years before I retired..  The Cruise M design is almost 20 years old!  I posted the schematic so the folks who like to understand the design can see how it is wired up internally.  I can't speak to what is being manufactured, my lack of involvement in ElectricRR happened in 2006 when Ken was the person who managed the company.  I was pulled into many other projects!

It is possible the particular setup may require some other "help", so folks with your talent are always appreciated to take all the designs I created and find a use for them to make the hobby more fun!

jon

I’m justgivin ya a hard time Jon, …..I stopped taking any of this stuff seriously probably as long as the M’s been on the market……thank you though, for chiming in!!

Pat

Pat, I 'm good!  Just sharing what I can.  BTW your work is awesome, enjoy reading about your conversions.

@SantaFeFan posted:

The hardware was changed to add the buffer as indicated, and the software has not changed for a very long time; probably since around the 2007 time frame....

I had no idea my memory was that long!   I'm feeling much better now.

When they were still available, I used some of the TMCC back-EMF motor drivers from Lionel, those still had the issue of loading the serial data and required me to add a buffer to the serial data.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I had no idea my memory was that long!   I'm feeling much better now.

When they were still available, I used some of the TMCC back-EMF motor drivers from Lionel, those still had the issue of loading the serial data and required me to add a buffer to the serial data.

Chances are good the OP is using one of those here, but then as Shultz would say, I know nothing!

Pete

@Norton posted:

Chances are good the OP is using one of those here, but then as Shultz would say, I know nothing!

Pete

Well, if he's using the Lionel back-EMF board, I can say for sure it requires buffering when it also is driving a 2-wire IR drawbar, I've done a number of those!

@nwfan1 posted:

I've installed the Cruise M (plugged in J1 & J3 connectors) and connected pin 1 on J4 to pin 24 on the R2LC. Unit powers up, get no whistle or bell, and takes off when the speed is increased on the CAB1.

To simply diagnose the possibility of an issue with the IR drawbar, just unplug the 10-pin connector from the CC-M, then fire it up and toot the whistle.  If it works, it's the serial data issue we're discussing.