Damaged Truck on CSX Theater Car & Broken Boiler Details on C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522

Stop buying John, switch to MTH or something. With all due respect, your luck is terrible, and your also a glutton for punishment.

At this point, I don't know how you have patience left for anything other than a refund.

I'd like to know how long one must sit on hold to get through for warranty service. I've tried to see if they would send me a replacement for a missing screw on my h10 but I simply can't waste half a day wondering if anyone will ever pick up.

Its the worst its ever been. Apparently when Mike Reagan left, ten other customer service employees went with him.

Emails used to work all the time, every time, like a charm. I only have one under warranty locomotive. I can't imagine having several if something were to go wrong.

I feel really shocked you have such bad luck.  I buy quite alot of Lionel and I very rarely have any issues.  I have had 3 issues out of about 50 engines over last 8 years.  My Allegheny was perfect, many miles later, still great.

I really hope you get this resolved...

I've contemplated the advice of Ricko many times lately. It took me 10 sets of UP Excursion cars to get an "ok" enough set. Still has some issues, scratched windows, paint issues, trucks that do not roll properly. I purchased a theater car and it had one scratched window and paint issues. Caused me to cancel my Challenger set. Hate that they make the best version of the UP Excursion as I would give another company a shot in a heartbeat. Many shops such as Nicholas Smith scavenged for parts to get me the best workable sets they could. Many of the other big shops (TW, MM, etc) all said what came out of the box is the best they could do. Hope Lionel can get it together.

Nicholas Smith helped find me good cars in February, 2018.  Joey spent many nights opening sets and pulling the best into reasonable quality sets, not always perfect, almost never perfect.  The bad cars went back to Lionel months ago  . . . and Lionel still has no parts for my 21" passenger cars.  The coupler glide Z-bend plate cracked at the bend on a car and two couplers, now three still open.

I am a life-long Lionel operator, since age 4.  My father and I spent many hours in the basement building the Super-O layout.  My new "Valley of Bridges" layout is built with Atlas Century minimum O-72 curves so I can run the big articulated engines.  My Big Boys, N&W Y6bs, C&O H6, H7 and H8, and Pennsylvania Y3 are beautiful engines. The #2175 arrived sealed and broken in the box from Legacy Station.  I carefully inserted the right front steam chest cylinder guide back into the engine and straightened the bent rods. Lionel service assured me that the Vision Line Big Boys have no problems (I have six), but the used VL Big Boy #4014 from Tom C. had a RA number on the outer carton.  Who can we believe?

I want Lionel to solve its problems and produce quality engines. Those of us with major investments in trains will suffer if buyers loose confidence in the engines.  When we go to sell, who will buy them?

The new Lionel H-10 is a must own engine.  My "Pennsylvania Lines" #1709 and "Western Allegheny" #85 run smoothly, smoke abundantly through stack and whistle, and have a bell that swings as the bell sounds.  I like the Lines West tenders.  Perhaps focusing on smaller engines that are on a one piece chassis, not articulated, will give Lionel greater success.  The small H-10 engines look fantastic on my big sweeping O-72, O-81, and O-90 curves.  The Western Allegheny has pulled eleven of my 21" passenger cars with ease.

I wish Lionel the best.  I also expect nothing but the best.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Wow...you have "6"? You only need 19 more and you'll have as many as the UP itself... 

Mark in Oregon

Mark,  I went overboard when I started my layout.  The #4014 I purchased used was missing a part, the stack cover,  that the seller found later and sent to me.  I bought another #4014 in a sealed carton because of the missing part.  The #4012 is test run by the original buyer.  The #4004, #4017 and #4018 in sealed cartons will probably be sold after the holidays.  My Millhouse Studio Z 32" Turntable was going to be a featured location at the bottom of my basement steps as I entered the room.  The hole is cut and the three-bay Atlas Roundhouse is in place.  I just have to take care of unfinished business with Lionel.

I also bought Atlas Century track for a second layout upstairs on the main floor of the house.  The wall-hugging layout is for when my knees prevent me from walking steps to the basement. If I don't build it, I will have a large quantity of track to sell.  Deichman's Depot had a very good sale early this December.  Minimum O-72 curves on the uptairs one too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

P.S.  Red lights over Roundhouse Doors indicate power is on for the track inside.  I wanted dead tracks for parking engines so they would not draw on the ZW-L transformer.

Gee, I've had bad luck with some purchases, but nothing like that!  I fixed my H10 myself, and also my F40PH engines.  The Reading T1 ran flawlessly out of the box, no fixing needed on that one.

It might be time to take a break

It also seems to me that you have had a large sample of the worst of Lionel production in a few years - although looking back I have found issues with a some of what I have bought from other importers (MTH/3rd Rail) over the last five years.  

It’s their factories and the lack of effective QC although some (meaning 3rd Rail) try a lot harder than others (fill in the blank).

Frankly, in your position I’d cut my losses and not pre-order. It’s too hit and miss quality-wise to commit to spending money on an untested product.

Just my opinion but, for the life of me I do not understand why you keep purchasing their "high end" crap.

Good grief John, they should send a van and a man to pick up all your mess and make it right, as much money as you’ve spent with them........I sure hope they get it all straightened out

GunrunnerJohn,

I am glad to welcome you into my world of broken trains.  When you had issues with your H-10, I gained a little confidence back.  I invested, (Heck, I wasted ) $200,000 on building my bucket list layout.

I have some very nice engine sets including nine three-powered-engine GP35 sets with sound.  I took the dummy engines and placed them on a Great Northern powered GP35 chassis that I purchased from Gryzbowski Trains. When I put the newly powered GP35 in the middle of the consist, the correct sounds and horn for the road name came from the lead engine.  All three engines produce diesel sounds.  That will wake me up if I stat to doze late at night. 

I still need to get the YLB for my three H-10 and more (150+ Legacy and Atlas).  The Coal Hauler set should arrive soon. I am not a fan of thumb tack freight cars.  I had that with my Coca Cola NW2 set that MPC or General Mills made years ago before MTH brought life back to the hobby.  It seems Lionel truck and wheel technology is moving back to the Stone Age.  I had to return some LionScale C&O Coal cars that kept jumping my switches.  I am glad I have my 800+ Atlas O Freight cars.  (Yes, I will be thinning these out too.)  Atlas keeps making "got-to-have" freight cars: Berwick Hi Cube Box cars, Gunderson Container cars, H21a Coal cars, 25,000 gal. Tank cars, etc.

I apologize for whining.  I am tired of shuffling engines in for service. 

Sincerely, John Rowlen

No need to apologize.  If that's the experience you've had with your many purchases, that's the experience you report.  I haven't bought much of recent production (maybe 20 freight cars and 6 locomotives), admittedly not high end locos, but I've been much more fortunate than you.  My sympathies on your frustration and aggravation.  I'd say hang in there, but there's nowhere else to hang, unless you want a new hobby.

DEAN at Lionel contacted me by email on December 19, 2018 at 11:49 A.M.

Because I shared the difficulty I had/have, I wanted to relay his message that will give an insight into activity at Lionel.  I am re-typing this as written:

Hello John,

Sorry for the delay, we are slammed and doing the best we can.

I am sorry for the C&O as this was a new in box, we did not open it.

If you have not already done so please get RAs for all these.

We are going to just refund the price of the GG and I will need a copy of the receipt, please get an RA to send back the C&O.

Happy Holidays!

Dean

I am happy to receive Dean's email, and it gives a brief picture of the busy activity as Lionel gets newly arrived merchandise out to dealers for the Christmas Holiday that is fast approaching. 

I am waiting for Nicholas Smith to receive my Pennsylvania H-10 Coal Hauler set.  I know it will be after Christmas because Nicholas Smith uses big truck freight companies to bring in their orders, usually a week or two after other stores receive smaller FEDEX or UPS shipments. … and that is OK.

Well, I am going outside to toss a few peanuts to the Squirrels and Blue Jays, smoke a cheap Phillies Titan cigar and drink a cup of Kona coffee.  Mom wants to go for a ride and see the ducks at Upper Fernhill Reservation in the Cleveland Metro Parks.  Maybe I'll be a big spender and get her a Hot Dog and Hot Fudge Sundae at Dairy Queen.

Happy Holidays!

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hold up, 55 passenger cars? 

Wow! I wish I was you! 

This may sound backwards but have you ever considered buying primarily used engines? You have to be patient with new releases getting trickled down and such but at least someone else has shook out the problems and multiple RA's. It seems counterintuitive but you will know that everything runs correctly if thoroughly tested/ran by someone else. 

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

Hold up, 55 passenger cars? Wow! I wish I was you! 

Only 55? I have 70 or so; 20 three-rail, the rest are two-rail. Some of my K-Line observations:

JOHN: VERY SORRY about your bad luck streak! On a lighter note, my backyard squirrels, Cardinals and Bluejays love the unsalted, roasted-in the-shell Virginia peanuts we put out daily. We go through 2 pound bags quite often. It is fun to watch the birds compete with the squirrels for those nuts. Our 10 year-old orange tabby named Red also enjoys the action, but he cannot outrun those squirrels! Though well-fed, he quickly reverts to his primal instincts when he spots one!

John Rowlen posted:

I just ordered a second CSX Theater car from Nicholas Smith Trains. The first has broken side frame details on the front truck.

I would not mind that so much, but my Union Pacific Challenger 7-car set has a damaged Observation, a rattling Baggage car and a coupler that will not stay closed on the add-on Coach.  I have been waiting since April for a replacement Z-plate and two couplers for the previous fifty-five 21" passenger cars I purchased in February, 2018.  Neither Nicholas Smith Trains nor I have been able to get these parts.  I was told by the dealer to call Lionel and yell at them.

It follows the C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 that Dean at Lionel sent to me as a replacement for the Vision Line GG1 #4913 that Lionel Service could not fix after three (3) trips to Lionel over the past year.  The C&O 2-6-6-2 #1522 arrived with a broken part off the front of the boiler and white paint on the top of the left walkway.  The part uses two wire/whisker pincers to grab a vertical post on the dimple on the boiler front.  One wire/whisker is missing on the broken part.  This engine was inspected by Lionel and sent to me by FEDEX.  They will no longer send me packages by UPS.

I emailed Dean on Monday, December 10th, and called Kattie on December 13th, when she flagged my email for Dean.  I have not heard from Dean or Lionel since that time.

Katie was going to issue an RA for my CSX F40PH #9999 that returned from Lionel Service for the second time and now has a broken sound volume rheostat. I have not received that RA that was going out on December 13th, 2018 according to Katie.  I have emailed Lionel twice more and have had no response. Why does it take three trips to Lionel to fix things?

The warranty clock is ticking and Lionel will probably be closed between Christmas and New Years like other manufacturers. 

My Allegheny #1604 returned from Lionel Service and stutters down the track when going over speed step "22". Lionel Service is having issues and now the warranty on my 1st Allegheny #1604 is expired. The second Allegheny #1608 arrived a year ago and was broken. Legacy Station refunded my money and cancelled the pre-order for the third Allegheny #1601.

If anyone calls Lionel, please remind them that John Rowlen is trying to reach them.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Dear Mr. Rowlen,

 I have been following your unfortunate experiences with what should have been the, “best of the best” Lionel has to offer.  For the life of me, I can’t understand why you haven’t “pulled the plug” after the first couple of disappointments.   Understand, I am in no way, shape or form passing judgement, I am just not accustomed to the kind of loyalty you have for the Lionel brand.  Make no mistake, I have several Lionel locomotives and rolling stock, all of which were purchased on the secondary market.  I have been satisfied with all of them because they all arrived in perfect condition and functioned exactly as they should.  As for rolling stock, I refuse to pay the current market prices for cars that have the old-style trucks and “thumb tack” uncouplers!  I too had a Lionel Coal Hauler set ordered via BTO but as the QC concerns increased, I decided to cancel my order and believe me, I have no regrets.  Regarding new locomotive purchases, most have been the MTH flavor and purchased at Stockyard Express where they check them out before delivery and provide a 1-year, on-site warranty, at no additional charge.  I truly hope things improve with you future Lionel purchases.  If they do not, please take my advice and, "pull the plug".

 Merry Christmas,

Chief Bob (Retired)   

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, for the life of me I do not understand why you keep purchasing their "high end" crap.

What do you call the “Low End” stuff ?

romiller49 posted:

Hot Water posted:

Just my opinion but, for the life of me I do not understand why you keep purchasing their "high end" crap.

What do you call the “Low End” stuff ?

Apparently their "low end" stuff seems to be of higher quality. Go figure.

My luck on Ebay has been outstanding. Every used engine worked, or Ebay sent a shipping label to return it to the seller.  I bought an Erie AA E7 set to pull my first MTH cars (also purchased on Ebay): a five car Erie smooth-sided passenger set.  MTH did a great job, though the people look a little small after detailing my 21" Lionel cars with Preiser Figures I hand-painted.

EBay's Buyer's Protection Plan has been very good.  I plan to list some Lionel large Freight cars and duplicate Atlas O 3-rail cars on Ebay in 2019. I have many Atlas O CSX Cylindrical Hoppers that have been sitting since I purchased the CSX Trinity Hoppers by Atlas O.  As new cars arrive, my fleet of cars needs to be thinned out.

Pufferbelly, 

The Lionel H-10 Pennsylvania Lines #1709 and Western Allegheny #85 have been the best engines I purchased in two years.  I am not a fan of the thumb-tack uncouplers in the new Coal Hauler Set, but I have some duplicate cars from the first M1a Coal Hauler Set that will be used for good trucks if I can switch them. (Both of my Pennsylvania M1a Steam Engines needed new boards when they arrived. The set engine whistle blew constantly in conventional, and the Pennsylvania M1a #6771 took off running full speed in conventional,  I was told by a repair person that all the M1a Coal Hauler Sets had board issues.)   I now use a 990 Legacy Remote and a ZW-L transformer.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas. Drink lots of Cocoa and eat many cookies.  You will need the calories if you have to shovel snow.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Interesting thing the internet.

Not too many years ago when you received an order which was defective or deficient you would address the issue with the dealer you purchased it from. Invariably it was a local hobby store and you probably new the owner’s name. Most times it would be fixed or replaced. It might have gone back to Lionel (fill in the blank) but you rarely had to deal directly with the manufacturer. 

Internet invented, grows, dominates local retailers, LHS die off - you get the picture.

So what happens these days when there is a quality problem. Well if you are lucky you can go back to the store you purchased it from and they will take ownership of the problem and try to resolve it to the best of their ability (for example in the case of John Rowlen-Nicholas Smith)

BUT, what happens when you purchase through the internet and you may not have that personal relationship with the dealer you might have had if he was a local. Before the dominance of the internet, no store owner wanted to risk having a neighbor or someone you might attend church with unhappy because the local store did not stand behind the product, The local hobby shop had a relatively small geographic reach and a limited number of customers, constrained primarily by how easy it is to physically get to the store and shop. They had a real incentive to make the customer happy.

In the present day you buy from someone who usually has a good price (good bye local hobby shop) and trust their reputation. All this works pretty well as long as there are limited quality issues on what you purchase and those problems (which inevitably occur) are backstopped by the manufacturer.

In this case Lionel has dropped the ball big time. It seems to me that you no longer have the one on one relationship to ask some dealer you just ordered something from to correct a problem, and if there are many more potential customers to be had just a click away -  the dealer has no particular incentive to go to the wall with the manufacturer. Therefore move on to the next internet order and if you lose that customer with the unresolved problem, so be it.

A depressing thought, but if correct when the manufacturer takes a holiday on quality control and/or customer service, the ultimate consumer takes the hit. I think that is what is happening these days. In my case by way of an example,  I just received a Lionel NORFOLK SOUTHERN theatre car from CHARLES RO. The burgundy color is way, way, way off and would look more at home with a Southern Pacific consist. Our club ordered one of the same units  and it has the same problem.

I called CHARLES RO last week and talked to Butch. He was not aware of any problems with the paint job and asked me to call Lionel. I did, and got to a Lionel service person who acknowledged that there was a problem but stated that “ they were not going to do anything about it” (I was not ready for that answer/excuse). I asked to speak with a supervisor and was given to the voice mail of Jerome??. I explained my problem and asked for him to return my call —— CRICKETS 

Let me conclude where I started this post. Yes, the internet is an interesting thing. Years ago I might have had a better resolution of a problem such as we are talking about from my local hobby shop because I could get in front of them and had more leverage, but if that fix was unsatisfactory  I was limited in expressing my displeasure to the owner, perhaps a letter to Lionel management, and complaining to my local club members. Then as now I will limit my future business with Lionel. I will most likely end up having the car repainted at my expense, BUT, I do have ability to post to the OGR Forum and perhaps hundreds of relavent customers can be influenced by my experience.

Perhaps some solace.

LIONEL are you listening?