DC or DCC ?

Hi Tom

I run DCC because my layouts are computer controlled and DCC (Lenz), is a natural fit.  Lenz make all of the add on parts necessary to connect to a computer, so I prefer to stay with one brand for reliability.

DCC also allows me to have tricky gizmos (like opening roller doors and remote control couplers).  The couplers are vital for "hands off" running.

But I'm in the minority, I reckon.

It comes down to what you want to do with your layout.  Once you know that, the choice is much clearer.

Cheers

I can go either/or on my S Scale layout.  I replaced one of my DC cabs with a DCC system and it all depends on which way my block toggles are set. 

Some of my newer locomotives were purchased with DCC and sound, however most of my locomotive fleet is conventional DC and I'm in no rush to convert them to DCC.  The locomotives that still see the most operation use are my two 20-some-odd years old DC 2-8-0's.

Rusty

John and I, and also Jeff can switch either way, I say DCC.. what can I say the play value is way more

as far as performance I believe DCC makes a perfect drive even better and a poor drive ok. So I say DCC 

The Appalachian & Ohio and all of it's subsidiaries (my Antioc and Dover, and Bob Sobol's New River & Western) use DCC.  NCE is our choice.  Eric is right, a high quality DCC decoder can tweak a mechanically sound drive to operate at its peak.  And O scale, due to its size, allows quality speakers to be large enough to perform respectfully.  There is a learning curve and the investment in equipment can be steep, but play value is pretty high.  The A&O is a LARGE operations based CTC signaled railroad with helpers, multiple unit consists, lots of lighting effects, and big sound; DC would not be able to keep up!

I am going to redo my switching layout. I have an NCE HO basic set which ran fine on my old layout. I am trying to decide if I want to use it again or just use my Command Master 20.

Dick

Like everyone, I had DC controlled HO layouts for many years. Like many, I switched over to DCC many years ago ... when DCC was kinda new. No comparison in the enjoyment of the two systems, IMO.

Now, that I'm switching from O 3-rail to 2-rail ... I would never even consider running under DC.

To me, so much more fun with DCC. Things to tinker with. Motor performance. Sound. Customizations. More "modeling" for the money.

How else could I have a big, modern GE diesel .... with an old ALCO 539T prime mover in it?  Banging away and that turbo whining! Joy.

I use NCE system, and ESU decoders.

Have fun.

I switched over to DCC about 5-7 years ago.    I was able to fit it in with little modification to my exisiting wire.   I did have to do some.    I left a DC cab in place "just in case" and "for testing" and I find that I use very very seldom.   

My layout is also operations based and I am part of a round robin group of about a dozen layouts and others under construction.    We generally meet once a week from Sep to June to operate on one of the layouts.    I was the LAST guy in the group to switch to DCC!    It got so, most of the operators had forgotten how to operate with block control and DC cabs and were continually running over the gaps.   

DCC has made operations so much easier and more efficient.    There is no need to find a kill track or another block, for a road engien when a switcher comes up to pull some setouts off the back of the train.     Meets are much smoother also, the infamous dreaded call "someone has my train" is a thing of the past.

The two 2-rail O scale clubs in my area can run either DC or DCC.  This hybrid system does not work well in my opinion.  The problem is that many 2-rail O scale modelers are reluctant to change to DCC and there aren't enough younger people entering the O scale 2-rail hobby to drive the transition.  Of course, the reluctance of 2-rail O modelers to convert to DCC may be a reason that they are unable to attract new people to their hobby segment or to join their clubs.

On the other hand, nearly all the HO and N scale clubs and home layouts in my area are completely DCC.  Most of the clubs started as DC clubs but they changed when they found that new members would only join if they were DCC.

One major HO club was built with DC as a display and it will never change to DCC.  The layout would need to torn out and completely rebuilt to use DCC and no one in the current membership is willing to do that.

At the National Model Railroad Convention in Orlando, two HO clubs had recently torn out legacy DC layouts and are in the process of rebuilding with DCC and walk around control.  Both clubs said that it was traumatic to tear out completed layouts to change to DCC.  Some members quit because of the decision.  

Command control is the future of model railroading.  Every manufacturer at the National Train Show in Orlando was offering their engines with DCC installed.  I think that a time will come when all new engines will come with factory installed DCC.  Can you buy a new Lionel or MTH engine without command control today?

NH Joe

When I considered all the blocks that I would have to wire, I chose DCC.  It makes wiring much simpler and you run far less wire.

Ed

I am straight DC and not being into "operation" at all I see no reason to change over to DCC.  My locos run smoothly and my block system works sufficiently for my needs on my small O scale railroad that has been in operation for 30 years.

Joe

Tom, as you know we use both DCC and DC on the club layout. Without question DCC makes operations easier, particularly during open houses. That said one of our mainlines can be switched between DCC and DC. That allows a couple trains to operate on DC, only because the layout is large enough to ensure adequate separation.

If you're asking for the layout you are building yourself, I'd suggest considering how you plan to operate it. As sparse branchline(s) you can use DC. For busier traffic I'd suggest DCC.

I had a Marklin HO layout run by DCC when nobody knew what it was put my own chips in the locos and qualified as a registered Marklin techo that was years ago.

Ever since I switched to O scale also years ago I have always used DC never needed to change to many other things happening and now DC will follow me to the grave. At least if anything ever goes wrong, and it never does, I know how to fix it without any outside help or great expense. Roo. (Just finished a great running session today all OK )

Chris, You are correct, my RR has 5 branch lines departing from one interchange with each branch  terminating at it's own  TT.  Seems  to be a natural for DC.  With a roster of several dozen engines I  was never encouraged $$$$wise to switch, plus I enjoy wiring.  For your club,  and even more so with  Ed Kelly's massive endeavor,  I could see that  DCC would be a blessing to run several trains at the same time on any one main.

I much prefer DCC, and have been using it for over ten years. I used straight DC and block control for 30+ years previous to the switch to DCC. I like the simplicity and my trains run fine...end of story.

Bob

DC is how my rather small layout runs - a small space and really as much a test bed for everything that I build and not ever designed or desired for operations. 

Also, were I to go to DCC I have a number of small engines that would require my installing everything in the tenders which would in too many cases require their disassembly - unsolder & repaint upon re-assembly.  Now where I install a board in my trolleys and not have that be unsightly is another issue.

Hi Tom, I run mostly DCC with a little mix of DC, our new club modules are wired for DCC/DC as they are the only systems in use in our area.

Our new G scale modules are coming along and will debut in Dec, no one in my area uses any other systems so no need to wire for those.

We find that DC/DCC covers operating hassle free and most reliable from Z to G.

I started with Atlas diesels that ran on DC. Then got into MTH Diesels with DCS and enjoy the DCS to this point. I came from DC in HO and never had DCC so can't really make an informed judgement. I was told years back,DCS is MTH's name for their DCC.(?)

Just my 2 cents worth.

Al Hummel

Mostly DCC with my super cool looking Esu Ecos II 

I have DCC in this model:

Fewer places to hide stuff than your trolley...

It's under his seat:

It even has sound - 4 speakers 1/4" thick hidden in ceiling,you can't see anything... if you WANTED to you could do it.

Technology is there...

Greg

Alan Hummel posted:

I started with Atlas diesels that ran on DC. Then got into MTH Diesels with DCS and enjoy the DCS to this point. I came from DC in HO and never had DCC so can't really make an informed judgement. I was told years back,DCS is MTH's name for their DCC.(?)

Just my 2 cents worth.

Al Hummel

MTH's DCS, while a digital command control system is not DCC, you can't run the early versions of DCS from a DCC system.  However, the current version (3.0) of DCS is DCC compatible.  MTH found it necessary to include DCC compatibility once they began to sell to the HO market.

Rusty

Tom Tee,

" plus I enjoy wiring".---That explains a lot.  LOL

Ed

Greg Elmassian posted:

I have DCC in this model:

 

Fewer places to hide stuff than your trolley...

It's under his seat:

 

It even has sound - 4 speakers 1/4" thick hidden in ceiling,you can't see anything... if you WANTED to you could do it.

Technology is there...

 

Greg

It's a little more difficult after they are built......and don't have removable roof sections.  If you can plan for it in advance, that works. 

It's not the lack of technology, it's the lack of access without cutting the models apart.

I'd have to back up over 20+ years of models, tear most apart (literally), and then rebuild them.  Contrary to that philosopher, Jerry Ragovoy, time is not on my side.

This is my ESU Loksound decoder with Tang band and iPad dual speaker installation in my PFM Fujiyama C48. The iPad Pro speaker is located in the boiler. The model has a Faulhaber coreless motor and custom built ball bearing gear box. 

Installation was carried out on Mr Sobel’s genius recommendations of the A&O.

Ed, after a stint at Boeing wiring Chinook helicopters, a DC model RR is nothing.

The Rockford O Scalers run DC, DCC and battery.  Currently the inside loop is set up for DC and the outside loop is set up as DCC.  In the last couple of years, O scale compatible DCC decoders have improved significantly so I am starting to slowly convert my DC motive power.  I will most likely standardize on Loksound for diesels and Soundtraxx for steam (while leaving the QSI decoders that are already installed).

Tom Tee posted:

Looking for a utilization as of right now.  Not what you may do in the future, but presently.

Do you run PRIMARILY DC or DCC control? 

As I have been reading various model RR publications they make it seem as though most every 2 railer  is running DCC.   At a recent 2 rail  show I took it upon myself to canvas some of those attending and was surprised to find that of those questioned, in that group,  the vast majority are using DC control.

There were some who used DCS and several running battery r/c but they were in the single digits.

Interesting Tom,

I have quite a few 2 rail friends in both HO and "O". At this point only 3 "O" guys with circle type layouts still use DC, every other "O" layout converted to DCC. Some of those "O" DCC layouts have also retained a DC throttle for the antiques that come over as any train show will have hundreds of the old Max Gray, Westside, etc., locomotives for sale. Even HO guys with massive around the basement, no switching layouts have converted to DCC, as the sounds, locomotive control, etc. make it the way to go if you can afford it. And you can't go by sales as some guys don't like the factory decoders so they purchase regular locos and add their own. IF DCC wasn't the way to go there wouldn't be so many companies in that market.

For those with DCC, what length or how many blocks do you use in order to facilliate isolation for short circuit discovery?

Dear Tom and List,

The Cherry Valley club has both DC and DCC on the layout. The DCC/ DC westbound main is generally used to make sure the DC locos operate before installing DCC. Mt home layout is strictly DCC with a 10amp NCE system. I really enjoy starting up the layout and it comes alive with the sounds of grumbling diesels and hissing of steam cylinders. Really neat. 

I can certainly understand my O scale friends that are with DC - the cost of DCC and sound installation can approach $225-275 per loco by a professional and DCC it wonderful when it works- not so much when it is not!!!

There is a growing trend for battery control systems and I have a few O Scaler friends that will be going that route in there next layouts- Dead Rail society.

I think once the battery power manufacturers get there act together with uniform rules like the NMRA did with the DCC guys- who knows.

What I do know is, what a great time to be in 2 Rail O Scale.!!!

I remember when Rich Yoder and I  started in O Scale in 1985 the big talk was Bob Weaver producing a plastic RS-3 and undecorated version was the big seller!!!

Great thread, Tom !!!  John

Strasburg Show 10-14-2017!!

Around here, most guys with layouts do their on DCC installs.    It is really easy without sound, and sound just adds another few wires to keep track of.    

I have probably installed over 50 decoders in O scale locos of various vintage.    What I find interesting, is I have never found one that did not have an isolated motor.    The HO gurus and the instructions sheets warn this may be a problem.    Basically is means one brush of the motor AND the motor frame grounded to the chassis.     I have an old Max Grey PRR 4-4-0 and I fully expected that to have this issue.   It did not.    

The other thing you often hear is that you cannot use DCC with Open Frame motors.     I have a long standing personal policy of not replacing motors if a locomotive runs good as is.    Therefore most of my fleet of steamers has open frame motors.    Again, I have had no problems with these with DCC.    I do replace series wound motors however, I have had a few of them.    I think this warning stems from the early days of DCC when decoders could not handle more than an amp or so.    I check mine and pick a suitable rated decoder.    Generally speaking, the older bigger locos need 3-4 amps to be safe.    The motor control decoder I use most often for these is the NCE D408SR which has a 4 amp continuous, and 8 amp stall rating.    I have yet to have one fail.    I have used HO rated decoders in locos which draw low amperage. 

As for the block size.     I had about 14 blocks on my mainline with DC.   I had a total of 26 including all the sidings and roundhouse and staging area.

With DCC, I have broken the layout into 8 "power districts".     These include both mains and  sidings in their area where before there might be 3-5 blocks.     I tried to balance the trackage in each based on how many trains/locos might be there during operations.   

I have not found this contraining.    The breakers have green LEDS when OK and go red when there is a short and it identifies the area.    Also using the breakers means only the zone where the short is, shuts down with a short.   The rest of the layout continues to run.

There are various brands of breakers, power management boards available.    I happened into some of the Digitrax version at a very good price, so I went them.   They have 4 breakers on each board.    Main power goes into the board, and power for 4 zones comes out.

Tom,

I divided my mainline into 120' zones and I put a booster in the middle so the power goes out about 60' in both directions.  I intend to put snubbers at the ends of all runs but have done so for only a few of the runs.  So far, no problem.  So, no rush to add the remaining snubbers.  Is snubber the right word?  I have breakers in all the zones.  I use 10 gauge stranded wire for the buses.

Hope this helps.

Ed

Snubber is the right word, Ed.  They were popular in the early days of DCC, but I forgot to put them on mine. 

I've still got the bits there to make them, but I haven't got a round tuit yet.

There is a simple overload protector which some guys here have made by inserting an auto globe and a buzzer into the block supply circuit.  The globe takes the load and the buzzer sounds when there is a short.  Some guys have also added a bezel to the fascia near to the block.

It makes it easy to see the block with the problem and as soon as the loco which has run the adverse turnout is removed, the block returns to normal.

Cheers

Tom,

I had O scale (2 rail) DC for about 35 years.  I heard so many horror storied about DCC but  I switched everything in 2013.    I think it took about 4 months to convert the layout and 30 plus locos.  I could do about 2 locos a weekend and I was working full time back then.  

On the advise of Tony from Tony's Train exchange, I tried a QSI Titan rated at 1.8 amps continuous in a loco.  I put it in a Sunset Mike and ran  the hell out of it, stalled it slipped it,  and could never get it above barely warm.  It is about amps, not scale.  All 20 plus steam engines have the Titans and the deisels (4 motors) are using larger QSI or MRC decoders.  

I killed 3 decoders through errors early on and Tony's replacaed all three   (Two died because of marker lights shorting on the boiler and I am not sure what happened to the other one).  They are not forgiving but once I got the hang of it, the last 20 went in without issue.  I am not a wiring expert and definitely hate computers.  But I love DCC.  It was like getting rid of the 3rd rail 40 years ago.

As for block size, I keep the complicated areas like yards and engine terminal short since there is more to go wrong.  The main isn't really a deal sibce there is less than a dozen turnouts right now and is about 120 feet.  It is all one big block.  I plan to add to it and will eventually make it 2 blocks of about 100 feet each.

Hope this helps.  Feel free to email if I can tell you more.  Oh, about half the O scalers I know are DCC and half DC.  No battery guys yet

No doubt about it when it comes to control and the sizzle of lights,  sound and maybe smoke,  DCC gots it.

But.

Having someone add DCC to 35 engines at John's $225 - $275 quote plus the hand helds, boosters, and whatever is tapping into 10K.  To quote John Armstrong on another issue "it gets to a point one has to lie to themselves about the cost".  An axium that guides me in life is just because I can buy something does not mean it is best to buy it.

Having very little hobby time coupled to zero patience with electronic quirks and even less basic electronic knowledge I will probably be sitting in the DC peanut gallery.

One thing does get me though, I have about 1/3 of my engines with PS-3 and have the ability to switch any one or all of my branch line power districts between DC or AC at the flip of a switch.   These engines may not be at the level of my brass but for a crazy reasonable price they come with a degree of sound and control included.

MTH does have a niche spot.

It's all good!  Thanks one and all for the survey balance.

I gave you a "Like" for a well put argument, Tom.  I'm sure that it resonates with many others here.

Me?  I'm lost forever. 

Cheers

Has any loco or chip manufacturer considered a chip that will automatically read DC or DCC and switch accordingly?

Dick

That line gets a big  from me, Tom - "zero patience with electronic quirks. "

To each their own quirks. 

CBQer posted:

Has any loco or chip manufacturer considered a chip that will automatically read DC or DCC and switch accordingly?

Dick

No, But . . .  Lenz DCC will run one DC loco (address 00), while running other DCC locos.

Best I can do. 

Yes, any dual-purpose decoder will sense what power is applied to it, as long as the decoder is programmed for DC.

Tom, I think John's price quote for installs is too high, unless he includes the price of the decoder. I've seen average install rates for labor $50-$75 per. Heck, I've done it gratis for club members.