DCS and Supersnap, not a match?

My recommendation would be to try using a transformer other than a CW-80 if you have one available.  Whenever I read about DCS/PS and CW-80s in the same sentence, I stop right there.  You'll note that the CW-80 is not among the list of recommended transformer on the list at the back of for engine's owner's manual.  Sometimes the combo may work fine, but for others it can be problematic.

Z1000 connected to the Commander. I have a ZW but it is in an unassembled state pending a quiet weekend day.

Up to now though the CWs have run 2 PS2s and a Locosound in conventional without a hitch. I guess on Fastrack only, hadn't got any of the MTH engines down here until last night.

I had similar problems, although with conventional engines under the DCS control. The CW80 is not a pure sine wave transformer, so the wave is chopped. And even though the CW80 will run your engines conventionally when you run it through the TIU you get a double chopped wave, probably really ugly. And from my limited experience it's just too much for the electronics in some engines to deal with. In my case either or works fine. IE: my electronic powersupply in conv mode. Or DCS with the TIU powered with a pure sine wave transformer. My understanding is the TIU further modifies the wave, so you have to start with a pure wave, or something very close.

Fundamentally there is no reason the Super snap track doesn't work with DCS.  Does a conventional train run around the super snap loop?  How did you attach the wires with the Super snap terminal removed?  Does this track have the black center rail?

It may be you did not have a good connection to the track, or you had a polarity issue if the engine was not PS-3.   G

Charlie,

And even though the CW80 will run your engines conventionally when you run it through the TIU you get a double chopped wave, probably really ugly.

 

My understanding is the TIU further modifies the wave,

That's not entirely accurate.

First, only the TIU variable channels chop the sine wave, and only when in variable mode. The fixed channels, and the variable channels in fixed mode, pass voltage unaltered.

Second, the CW80 isn't just a "sine wave chopper". It's also bad for use with DCS in other ways. DCS operators, or conventional PS2/PS3 operators, would be wise to avoid the CW80 altogether.

I have a SuperSnap layout with a lot of track. There are no problems with the DCS signal. I use a Z4000 for the main lines and Z1000 bricks for the yards and a Rev L TIU. I put pins in all the track sections rather than depend on the small metal tabs that are under the track.

Ed Kaz

Thanks, that's good information to know. That may open a possibility or 2 with a fixed channel. And as to  the CW80, in regards to MTH electronics at least, it seams all I hear are compatibility problems. I did know that especially the early PS1 boards didn't like chopped sine wave transformers. And I'm sure the safest bet with any PS boards, if the transformer is not on the approved list supplied by MTH, use at your own risk.

ftauss,

   It's not the SS track it's your transformer, get rid of the CW-80 they are entry level transformers to begin with, IMO power your layout with nothing less than a Z-1000 and you will have little problems.   If you like the older transformers use the ZW or KW, make sure to use the 10 Amp breakers between the old transformers and the DCS TIU if you do.

Always over power your layouts so you can expand when needed.

PCRR/Dave 

Our DCS power station on the office/game room FasTrack layout.

I'm not sure everyone reads the posts completely before answering. I am using a DCS Commander 50-1029 which has a Z1000 100 watt brick. The CW was only to test to make sure there was in fact conventional continuity.

Turns out when you connect the the DCS Commander to the Supersnap terminal in a manner that makes the terminal light bulb light up it is connected "backwards for the Proto". When I reversed the wires, the light went off but the engine now functions. Go figure. I tested on another terminal just to make sure, same deal. So I'm guessing the light is an LED with diodes and they just happened to be wired such that the DC to work the Protosound is backwards from the that for the light.

I had assumed light on = good, light off = bad. Hence the Er message when the light was on.

Live and learn. Thanks guys. And yes have a nice long Tuscan passenger job running. tomorrow night I'll try just the FA-2 and K-4 on the track together.

ftauss,

   Great that you found the problem, you might want to rework your lighted lock on (terminal light) to use as a magic light.  Still replace the CW-80.

PCRR/Dave

Indeed, that thought on the light had crossed my mind last night.

The ZW when rebuilt will likely be my additional power source, when I go to full DCS. But as that is likely some time away this setup should do fine to scratch the itch.

The CWs to be retained for conventional holiday trackage (I have maybe 5 conventional Christmas engines which would be a low priority for upgrade or replacement) or accessory power.

Frank

I just got some SuperSnap lockons.  If it's a K-0690, they are not just a connection to the rails. 

They are advertised as: "protects against power surges, protects against voltage spikes, super-duplexed electronics, bidirectional duplexed."

So, I read that as "electronics built in" which means this is no ordinary wire to track connection.  Perhaps the electronics in the lockon are not passing the DCS signal as well as a straight wire to track connection.

I would suggest wiring from the TIU to the Supersnap track without using the K-line lockon. 

I would also confirm that, although I use a number of CW80's with my trains, I have had issues when using them with MTH DCS equipment.

Ed

I did, which is why I said check polarity.  But you also stated you removed the Lock on and it still wasn't working?  The lock on does have a TVS, capacitor and is an LED light, so there is probably a resistor and diode for the LED too.  Glad you got it.  G

Wanted to clarify that the Supersnap does not utilize a "lockon" It is a straight with terminals that look like the ones on the CW-80. your post made me curious so I took one apart, base comes off with 3 small screws. There is nothing there that I can see. Red terminal has a wire to the center rail, black to the near side outer rail. A single LED for the power indicator. Resistor on the black terminal for the LED.

The problem I think is that the DCS Commander (the little console) does not have polarity markings on the output, at least not on mine and the book that came with it and Barry's book don't say which output terminal is which, at least I didn't see anything yet. And since the Commander's output is DC it matters which rail it goes to.

Do you even need a TVS with DC? I thought what GRJ said was that it was a characteristic of the AC that created the need for it.

You are correct that it was the polarity, it just took a bit to dope it out.

Frank

A voltage spike can happen on AC or DC, so a TVS is always a good idea.  Anytime there is an inductive component and you remove power, a nice voltage spike is produced that can reach several hundred volts in an extreme case.  This is the villain that can kill electronics.

Yes, that is a characteristic of the DC Commander.  Probably because the DC for HO and the PS-3 can determine polarity and operate accordingly.  PS-2 requires proper polarity for DC or 2 rail.  That is why the 2R/3R have a polarity switch on the loco. 

K-line did make 2 models of the lockon.  One with surge protection and one without.  G

From my past experience, the DCS system does not work well at all with the K-line lockon with the built in surge protector.

I can tell you that DCS will not make it through the Lionel TMCC Direct Lockon, so it's not surprising other similar devices would affect the DCS signal.

Hooray for me! Put the new K-4 on the track with the FA-2. Ran 'em both for a while. Got the USB to serial so I can correct the Sound Set in the K-4. Now I want more engines!! Gotta clean up the workbench so I have room to work the upgrade on the Locosounds Mountain. Need to figure out which diesel to upgrade. K-line S-2, RMT S-4 Bang? Kline S-2 needs it more, needs more lights. They appear to be the same basic engine with the RMT variant being more updated. Would need to add backup lights fore and aft and a strobe at least.

I put TMCC in the RMT BANG, and I added a bunch of weights as well to bring it up to as heavy as I could, it actually is a pretty good little switcher now.  I am considering sound for it now...

Frank,

   You do understand Conventional trains will run quite well via the DCS hand held remote control, no need for the CW-80 in reality.

Invest in Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion book and the OGR Video Guide to DCS

they will save you a lot of frustration as you build your DCS layout.

PCRR/Dave

I already have both and been using them. The ability to run conventional was a deciding factor in going with DCS since I'm not sure it's cost effective or even possible to upgrade everything to PS2.

Like I said, the CWs were just the starters I was using until I got something better.

Frank,

   Great I was just making sure you knew the conventional trains could be run with DCS, some people miss this until they own a DCS for a while, or purchase Barry's book, see Rich explain it on the OGR Video Guide to DCS.  Looks like you are headed down the right track.

Good luck with your layout

PCRR/Dave