DCS Explorer - passive mode?

The DCS explorer does not support passive mode.

One possible cheap option for you is the DCS Remote commander. It does work in passive mode but will require the engine to be factory reset before to operate with that unit. More info about the remote commander can be found here: https://mthtrains.com/50-1033

Thanks H1000,

The Remote Commander certainly has a good price point.   But the infrared line-of-sight requirement isn't appealing...

Lots of mirrors Steve, makes the LOS requirement go away.   I believe the 44-Ton locomotive is late enough to have the firmware to be able to be factory reset using the DCS Remote Commander.

Mirrors...hmm.  Wouldn't the signal then be backwards or mirrored?  IE forward would be reverse, and so on? LOL

Lemme ask a dumb question: What does this "factory reset" do to the engine?  Anything that cannot be undone?

Thanks!

Steve,

What does this "factory reset" do to the engine?  Anything that cannot be undone?

It's exactly the same as a DCS Factory Reset (because that's what it is). As soon as you change any feature in the engine, or add it to a DCS Remote or a DCS App, the Factory Reset is undone.

Everything that you need to know about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Everything that you need to know about DCS WiFi is all in MTH’s “The DCS WiFi Companion 2nd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Ok, so my brand spankin new 44-tonner should already be factory reset.

Thanks!

Steve,

Yes, unless the dealer tested it with a DCS Remote and neglected to Factory Reset it after the test. In that case, refer to page 204 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition:

Newer PS3 engines, manufactured starting in 2014, may have the capability to perform a Factory Reset through a combination of button presses (SND, DIR, -). This is made possible by revised firmware in newer (2014) PS3 engines.

Everything that you need to know about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Could the DCS explorer be powered to allow it to run passively? 

I have friends that only have 1-2 MTH engines but have larger layouts.  Putting the power through the Explorer isn't feasible and purchasing full DCS (TIU and WIU) is beyond what some are willing to pay for command on a couple of engines.  Wondering if there is a solution using the Explorer as running with the app has significant advantages over the Remote Commander?

Charlie,

Could the DCS explorer be powered to allow it to run passively? 

No, it cannot.

An interesting question, I wonder if a few external components might get the job done.  A hi-pass filter on the output to allow the DCS signal through but block the 60hz, and then just use a small transformer to power the DCS Explorer.

Something like this on the output of the Explorer to pass the DCS signal...

Note that I haven't tried this, but it's an interesting idea.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

An interesting question, I wonder if a few external components might get the job done.  A hi-pass filter on the output to allow the DCS signal through but block the 60hz, and then just use a small transformer to power the DCS Explorer.

Something like this on the output of the Explorer to pass the DCS signal...

Note that I haven't tried this, but it's an interesting idea.

Thanks John for considering my question.  It would be interesting if something could be put together I know a couple of interested persons. 

Charlie, you're looking at the diagram, four caps and four resistors and you can give it a try.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Charlie, you're looking at the diagram, four caps and four resistors and you can give it a try.

Thank you John.

I suspect (but haven't tried), that one could also run multiple DCS explorers connected to each other in home mode to drive a large layout. Make sure your Explorers are phased properly, and wire each unit to control different blocks of the layout. You'd still be limited to three engine per Phone / Tablet due to restriction set forth in the app, but (in theory) with multiple tablets, each could run three different engines per tablet & app.

The problem with multiple explorers is you can only have the engine controlled with one.  If you drive off that power district to a different explorer link, the engine is no longer under your control.   As long as all the engines stay on specific power blocks it would probably work.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

An interesting question, I wonder if a few external components might get the job done.  A hi-pass filter on the output to allow the DCS signal through but block the 60hz, and then just use a small transformer to power the DCS Explorer.

Something like this on the output of the Explorer to pass the DCS signal...

Note that I haven't tried this, but it's an interesting idea.

That is interesting! And I think I recognize that circuit from somewhere.   As a 'what if' on the track power... Would one need something to keep the 10 amps of track power from back feeding into the 6 amp (I think) Explorer? Just for safety reasons, or would it not matter? Just curious here, was thinking about derailments, shorts, etc.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The problem with multiple explorers is you can only have the engine controlled with one.  If you drive off that power district to a different explorer link, the engine is no longer under your control.   As long as all the engines stay on specific power blocks it would probably work.

John, MTH explained earlier that this would work:

https://ogrforum.com/...76#77875232737454276

MTH RD posted:

Here are some answers to the question of using multiple DCS Explorers.

Case 1: Multiple Explorers in MTH mode - No problem.  It doesn't matter if the Explorers are in different states or the same room.  Each app/device needs to connect to one of the Explorers in MTH mode and life is good.  The limitation is 3 engines per each app/device.

Case 2: Multiple Explorers in HOME mode - This too is fine.  If you wanted to run a ~5A train on each of 3 different loops, you could install an Explorer on each one.  With the app/device connected to the HOME network (same network as the Explorers) you can run all three Explorers with independent loops seamlessly to the user.  The limitation, again, is 3 engines per app/device.

Case 3: Multiple Explores connected together within the MTH network - No problem here again.  You just set one Explorer to MTH mode and the additional Explorers to HOME mode and connect them using WPS.  You can use Luci (web interface) too but, why?  The limitation, yet again, is 3 engines per app/device.

So, in summary, the Explorer works almost like the WIU in terms of network connectivity.  There are some limitations in comparison to the WIU.  Ethernet is an example.  But, you can access Luci in the Explorer and edit the network settings, load new firmware, whatever, similar to the WIU.    

H1000 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The problem with multiple explorers is you can only have the engine controlled with one.  If you drive off that power district to a different explorer link, the engine is no longer under your control.   As long as all the engines stay on specific power blocks it would probably work.

John, MTH explained earlier that this would work:

https://ogrforum.com/...76#77875232737454276

MTH RD posted:

Here are some answers to the question of using multiple DCS Explorers.

Case 1: Multiple Explorers in MTH mode - No problem.  It doesn't matter if the Explorers are in different states or the same room.  Each app/device needs to connect to one of the Explorers in MTH mode and life is good.  The limitation is 3 engines per each app/device.

Case 2: Multiple Explorers in HOME mode - This too is fine.  If you wanted to run a ~5A train on each of 3 different loops, you could install an Explorer on each one.  With the app/device connected to the HOME network (same network as the Explorers) you can run all three Explorers with independent loops seamlessly to the user.  The limitation, again, is 3 engines per app/device.

Case 3: Multiple Explores connected together within the MTH network - No problem here again.  You just set one Explorer to MTH mode and the additional Explorers to HOME mode and connect them using WPS.  You can use Luci (web interface) too but, why?  The limitation, yet again, is 3 engines per app/device.

So, in summary, the Explorer works almost like the WIU in terms of network connectivity.  There are some limitations in comparison to the WIU.  Ethernet is an example.  But, you can access Luci in the Explorer and edit the network settings, load new firmware, whatever, similar to the WIU.    

 

They said exactly what I said, so I don't see why the comment.  Note that all of their scenarios indicate you have independent loops.  I can assure you, connecting them all to a single loop with a common power supply will not work well.  It's the same as connecting multiple TIU channels together, it's a no-go.

rtr12 posted

That is interesting! And I think I recognize that circuit from somewhere.   As a 'what if' on the track power... Would one need something to keep the 10 amps of track power from back feeding into the 6 amp (I think) Explorer? Just for safety reasons, or would it not matter? Just curious here, was thinking about derailments, shorts, etc.

As well you should!  I just "beefed" up the component values so as to offer a bit more drive of the DCS signal, the filter function is the same.

Look closely, the track power has to make it through four series capacitors in order to back feed the power connected to the explorer.  The capacitive reactance of a .1uf capacitor at 60hz is around 26kohms, with four of them in series, we have over 100kohms between the two power sources.  I don't see a problem here.

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize the caps would provide that much 'backflow' prevention. That's a lot more than I would have expected. Also another good thing to know! 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

H1000 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The problem with multiple explorers is you can only have the engine controlled with one.  If you drive off that power district to a different explorer link, the engine is no longer under your control.   As long as all the engines stay on specific power blocks it would probably work.

John, MTH explained earlier that this would work:

https://ogrforum.com/...76#77875232737454276

MTH RD posted:

Here are some answers to the question of using multiple DCS Explorers.

Case 1: Multiple Explorers in MTH mode - No problem.  It doesn't matter if the Explorers are in different states or the same room.  Each app/device needs to connect to one of the Explorers in MTH mode and life is good.  The limitation is 3 engines per each app/device.

Case 2: Multiple Explorers in HOME mode - This too is fine.  If you wanted to run a ~5A train on each of 3 different loops, you could install an Explorer on each one.  With the app/device connected to the HOME network (same network as the Explorers) you can run all three Explorers with independent loops seamlessly to the user.  The limitation, again, is 3 engines per app/device.

Case 3: Multiple Explores connected together within the MTH network - No problem here again.  You just set one Explorer to MTH mode and the additional Explorers to HOME mode and connect them using WPS.  You can use Luci (web interface) too but, why?  The limitation, yet again, is 3 engines per app/device.

So, in summary, the Explorer works almost like the WIU in terms of network connectivity.  There are some limitations in comparison to the WIU.  Ethernet is an example.  But, you can access Luci in the Explorer and edit the network settings, load new firmware, whatever, similar to the WIU.    

 

They said exactly what I said, so I don't see why the comment.  Note that all of their scenarios indicate you have independent loops.  I can assure you, connecting them all to a single loop with a common power supply will not work well.  It's the same as connecting multiple TIU channels together, it's a no-go.

And if we read a bit further down in that same thread, MTH says this:

https://ogrforum.com/...98#77875232751424398

MTH RD posted:

That's it.  The two Explorers will be transparent to you as the user.  Simply select whichever engine you want to run and go.  To switch between engines you just tap the down arrow in the upper right to display the engine list screen and tap whatever engine you would like to run.  Tip: If you tap the engine name on the main control screen, the previous engine will toggle.  This just like the "recall" button on a TV remote.  You can quickly and easily toggle between two engines by simply tapping the engine name at the top of the screen.  If you want to access a third engine, go to the engine list screen and tap it.

 Multiple Explorers can be treated the same way you treat the multiple channels on a TIU. As I said earlier, You wire the two (or more) Explorers to run the single loop in two (or more) blocks, and make sure they are phased. Each explorer will run it's own section of the loop. If you use the same power source or multiple sources to power the explorers shouldn't matter as long as you keep the phasing between them in sync.

The only real question is if the app will only let you run an engine on the explorer is it found on or if it doesn't care as long as the app can see the engine on any of the DCS explorers it discovered when it was launched on the phone / tablet. We alrady know the app can commuinate to multple DCS explorers at once, I would suspect the later is true. I guess I could drag my second Explorer out to test the scenario or maybe @MTH RD can chime in with the answer.

Eighteen months later........ has anyone tried GRJ's circuit to see if the Explorer will work in passive mode?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

An interesting question, I wonder if a few external components might get the job done.  A hi-pass filter on the output to allow the DCS signal through but block the 60hz, and then just use a small transformer to power the DCS Explorer.

Something like this on the output of the Explorer to pass the DCS signal...

Note that I haven't tried this, but it's an interesting idea.

I hate to bring back to life a very old thread - but I built your circuit.  before I power it up, @gunrunnerjohn do you have any suggestions on the power supply to use for the DCS explorer?

2 trains of thought.

One thought is, share the same source you are using for passive mode- ensuring the polarity/phase is correct on the input jack. That said, if we are talking a variable power, this may not be ideal. Fixed power fine. Another factor it takes time for the device to boot up- a lot of time, longer than any TIU. No watchdog would be sent before the engine boots and decides conventional mode because of no watchdog on powerup. Again, on first power up or first power of the track- if this was tied to the input- the Explorer takes significant time to boot.

So really, you kind of want a constant on fixed voltage- not tied to track ON/OFF or variable state.

The explorer takes AC or DC with a wide range input roughly 12-20V AC or DC and was supplied in sets with a DC supply. So, you could use a 12V supply (AC or DC) say 1-2A for power of the Explorer logic and thus DCS signal (also keeping the wifi up and operational). Even though we are putting in DC and putting out DC, We have this isolation circuit compared to the track AC power- only passing the DCS signal.

Obviously it all needs tested.

Again, the idea in the first example is, since it's the same power source- effectively there is near zero current flowing through since both sides are the same source. But like I said, it has a con- the boot time of the device. Further, something not discussed previously- the watchdog- probably only sent when the channel is "turned on" but without scoping and analyzing, or just real world testing with an engine, kind of an unknown.

The second way is just powering the Explorer all the time with a small power supply- could be nearly anything. It's not providing significant current other than to power the electronics. If we have true isolation and only DCS signal passes, then in theory, it doesn't matter AC or DC. It's goal is just to keep that processor and electronics running and not rebooting each time power is applied.

thanks for the tips.  I am happy to report that it worked.  I used a 12v 1A DC power supply for the explorer.  no power coming through the circuit to the track.  I put 18V on the rails, fired up the DCS app, and boom, my engine was there ready to go.   I am going to test a little more tomorrow - and will make a video to share with everyone.  @Vernon Barry thanks for your help!

A back door approach, but I'm glad it was successful.   One thing to add, stick a 22uh choke between the transformer and the track, that will help the DCS signal strength, and I suspect it'll need all the help it can get.

great idea @gunrunnerjohn - I was already thinking ahead to how to keep a strong signal - it works on a bench test track - let’s see on a big oval.  I am going to setup a bigger test track and do some additional testing tonight - unfortunately work, kids and sleep get in the way of my model rr time!  Thanks for your help!

Just adding this diagram showing the inductor as well as the beefed up isolator by @gunrunnerjohn