Dcs vs legacy

Wow - lots of input and good information.

I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?

I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???

NYC 428 posted:

One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.

Not true it is still being manufactured.  I just ordered another one!

"Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?"

Based upon my personal experience and those I know of, the DCS system is more feature rich but also substantially more quirky than TMCC, or even the somewhat more complex/feature rich version of TMCC, Legacy.  It is highly unlikely, as you note, that the pleas for help with DCS have to do with relative sales volume.

Many folks have no problems at all, particularly on smaller layouts, with either system. 

Larger layouts can have problems with either system, but DCS is, in my view, more subject to user error due to complexity and other less well defined quirks.  Some folks, particularly those technically inclined,  find that DCS's notable capabilities and quirkiness a pleasure and a challenge, and others find it less enjoyable, perhaps due to less technical knowledge and patience.  There is little doubt TMCC (the original three rail system) and Legacy (it's successor) are a bit easier to implement and use for most consumers.

I started with a small Conventional layout and have expanded to 625 square feet of layout. I run conventional, TMCC, Legacy, and DCS. Which is easier to install ? Probably Lionel. But it is extremely limited and DOES have problems as stated above, just as DCS has problems. My findings today are that with the NEW TIU Rev L and using the DCS Wifi APP Premier version you can run EVERYTHING and I have not had all the problems everyone is screaming about. I run 5 engine lash-ups and I still run conventional, TMCC, Legacy and DCS. I found the Lionel system does have problems with signals being scrambled if you have elevated track, but it is workable with the the DCS system and the App. If I were to start over again I would do DCS wiring for sure. Why? It is the only system that can be expanded to run everything with the bells and whistles. I did agree with the steam whistle not being easy till the app became available. It now works the same as Legacy and is very smooth! I still get frustrated when I have to go back to the Legacy Remote as it is so large! ( I go back to it because others are using my DCS remotes or are using my tablets with the app on including my phone). In all respect though you need to think about what you may do down the tracks. If you will never run anything but Lionel, then wire for Lionel. Same with DCS but just remember it can run everything else as you get more items and Dollars! This is not a cheap hobby and those who complain about cost I have never understood. I run my trains cause they make me VERY HAPPY and bring me a calmness that nothing else can ( I don't drink alcohol. lol ) so for me, yes, they are expensive but my peace of mind and staying sane is eased by running trains. Sometimes silently and sometimes with everything blaring! ONLY YOU can make the decision for you! Enjoy them! That is the most important thing. Also remember regardless of the complaining we all tend to do any one on this forum would be more than happy to help you with ANY problems! You just have to ask!

NYC 428 posted:

H1000

You should ask your local dealer or better yet try and buy a new one.  I know for a fact that MTH no longer wants to produce them.

 

I'm not worried. Plenty of dealers have them available:

Whether one choose DCS or Legacy, both systems stand alone very well.  The problems seem to compound themselves when one adds multiple layers of complexities.  i.e., DCS to Legacy, Legacy to DCS, TMCC, LionChief, LionChief +, wifi, Atlas or 3rd Rail engines, even the new entry level products from MTH.  I base this observation on the discussions from this forum.  A basic rule I followed has been to keep it as simple as possible.  I reentered the hobby in 2010 with DCS and the problems have been minimal.  (no wifi).  Now about those Atlas switches...…...

Geojr posted:

Wow - lots of input and good information.

I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?

I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???

I would say that DCS has more questions about the product because of so many options it has. DCS took me 1/2 hour to get up and running, TMCC / Legacy about 10 minutes. That was due to MTH have so many ways DCS can control your trains. 

I like DCS because it is more 3 dimensional in its control method … if that makes sense. I compare it to more of an engineered software.

Legacy seems more 2-D in control... you have certain options and that's it. Which is great for some, others may want more.

I am not sure what you are talking about when you say Lionel outsells MTH. I never investigated that. I think some 3 rail fans have been exposed to Lionel for so long they seem not to venture outside of their realm to investigate due to the added cost of another control system.

I bought TMCC, DCS, and Legacy when they were first introduced and the winnowing of favorite engines now leaves me running Legacy.  Biggest reason: steamer sound systems are a joy.  When DCS came out, I, and my club, went through years of resolving DCS signal issues before we finally understood how to get the wiring right for good signal propagation.  In the mean time, to avoid many frustrations, my loco purchases changed from MTH DCS to Lionel Legacy and I'm a happy camper - particularly with the Bluetooth enabled Legacy engines.  You don't need a Legacy Base system to run the Bluetooth engines - just get the App on your device.

Based on recent experience running a small switching layout with Lionel's App, my recommendation is to start with Bluetooth-enabled locos and enjoy running your trains.  Add a Legacy Base, LCS WiFi, and Command Control switches when budget permits and enjoy switching operations without the wiring hassles.   

Geojr posted:

I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?

I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???

Well, Barry's DCS Companion book on DCS operation has 242 pages. The Lionel Legacy Operator's Manual has 84 pages. That's not a precise apples to apples comparison for purposes of evaluating complexity, but it may provide some indication of an answer to your questions.

Personally, model trains that need a 242 page guidebook by an electrical engineer to explain how to do things aren't on my menu. I'm more interested in running trains than tinkering with them. Basic operation will require far less, of course. Nonetheless, I think the comparison has validity. But many folks will have a different point of view, and there are lots of DCS fans. Reading about DCS technicalities just makes my eyes start crossing, though. 

It’s decision time. What system are you choosing? Just curious. Either one, you’ll have fun. 

I think the answer to this question is simple, go with the system that best fits your current locomotive inventory. 

If the majority of your equipment is Rail King and/or Premier go with DCS, if its Lionel, Atlas & 3rd rail go with Legacy.

How complicated a system becomes, is based on how many of the features you want to take advantage of.  Both systems are easy to operate if all your looking to do is program your locomotive and simply run it,  However, they get more and more complicated as you venture deeper and deeper into special features.

If your just starting out you probably won't be getting in too deep, so either system is fine.  Once you start getting deeper into the hobby and acquire locomotives from all the different manufactures you'll want to take advantage of everything these systems have to offer and probably end up with both.

Start small and work your way into it.  Although it's true that you can operate Lionel equipment through DCS it does not give you access to everything Legacy has to offer, nor does Legacy have all the features that DCS has to offer.  Both are excellent systems, but they do have there issues !

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 

NYC 428 posted:

One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.

Not sure where you got your info from...

The MTH DCS remote is still being produced, It was still listed in the most recent MTH catalog.

 

Spoke with MTH Customer Service today on another matter & asked about the DCS remotes no longer being produced -  was told when present stock is gone - that is it - no more.

Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

Geojr posted:

 

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

 

I have both systems and you are right about DCS not finding the TIU or the engine . and remember Legacy hooks up with just one wire for a basic system.

Geojr posted:

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

I'm not tracking this. You started the thread by saying "I’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both."  But here you talk about your experience running both Legacy and DCS with your trains. It sounds like you already own both DCS and Legacy. And you also say "Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore."

All pretty confusing. Given the DCS problems you claim you've had and the positive experience with Legacy you claim you've had, and having been running 40 engines over a period of years, it sounds like you answered - or should have answered - your own question before you started this thread.

To the OP: 

Any time you ask a question like this you're going to get a lot of folks bad mouthing whichever system they have had a problem with. As the old saying goes if you have a good experience you tell one or no other person, have a bad experience and you'll tell 10+ other people. 

When someone has a problem with either DCS or TMCC/Legacy they tell you about the issue. You never get to hear the underlying cause or solution. Perhaps their layout had wiring issues. Maybe it wasn't wired correctly to work with whatever system they were running. It's possible that the wiring in their home has problems that cause issues with the signal. Both MTH and Lionel designed their system to be user friendly and work. Neither system is complicated to wire or install. Read the instructions that come with either system.

I do own a copy of Barry's DCS book. Honestly for me I didn't get much more out of it that reading the manual that came with my TIU. They had very similar information as far as setup/wiring goes. Where Barry's book is helpful is in more advanced functions (i.e. multiple TIUs) or explaining some things in plain English, if you have trouble comprehending the manual that comes with the TIU.

I don't have any advanced degree in electrical engineering or computer programming and I can set up and run DCS no problem, just like I can setup and run TMCC no problem. Neither system is rocket science. 

breezinup posted:

Geojr posted:

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

I'm not tracking this. You started the thread by saying "I’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both."  But here you talk about your experience running both Legacy and DCS with your trains. It sounds like you already own both DCS and Legacy. And you also say "Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore."

All pretty confusing. Given the DCS problems you claim you've had and the positive experience with Legacy you claim you've had, and having been running 40 engines over a period of years, it sounds like you answered - or should have answered - your own question before you started this thread.

It be nice to know how many issues people are having is a design flaw or user error. But since this is a small hobby we'll never know. 

The OP's issues could be something simple (i.e. remote running different software than the TIU, TIU accidental address change, etc) or a layout wiring issue. DCS tends to be more sensitive to user error than TMCC/LEGACY. 

Geojr posted:

Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

You might value your time with the trains you operate, but you don't value the time others put into offering reasoned advice to a dishonest question. Your original post asked for opinions on 2 systems saying you were contemplating only one or the other as you couldn't afford both. Now you say you already have your own experience with DCS and Legacy.  Very odd behavior.

I don't understand the comments above saying the DCS is difficult to do. It's not. Legacy isn't either. They are both equal. My only thought is this, you can add a piece of Lionel equipment to the DCS system and run both systems. If you are only going to get one system, I would get the DCS system because of that. The Lionel component that you need to plug into the DCS system you can get used for about fifty to a hundred bucks on eBay. The cord to connect it to the tiu cost like an extra I think twenty bucks. If you go with the Legacy system only you can't run DCS engines at all. Eventually, you're going to want to save your pennies and get both. That's where I'm at right now. I have DCS

Geojr posted:

Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

The disappointment is that you did not explain in your original post that you already had knowledge of both systems and you were currently using DCS albeit with challenges.  I got back into this hobby about 3 years ago.  I run both DCS and Legacy.  Adding the other is less expensive than your next engine.   After studying this forum and asking questions when I had issues, the members were invaluable in helping me get both systems running flawlessly.  I know others have or had the same experience.

It is not too late to get your DCS running properly.  Search for similar issues, or post questions.  There are people out there sitting on perches to help others.  You can run both and enjoy both.  Don't be discouraged, and be candidly direct with a question or issue and I'm sure you will get there.  I for one look at the forum often and when I can give correct input, I do. 

By the way, if your problem occurs every time you use DCS, the solution probably sticks out like "spats at an Iowa picnic".

On to preparing for Memorial Day and the Grandchildren coming down to Nana and Papa's house to run trains.  My fondest wishes to all on this very reverent holiday weekend.

I would certainly purchase both if you could.  It certainly lets you buy a wider variety of locomotives.  I do find DCS to be more feature rich, many of them IMO gimmicky and probably not used by 90% of folks but still adding play value, more than Legacy has.  The setup can be a little more work than Legacy for DCS but Legacy does have a few quirks to keep in mind.

As far as DCS running Legacy, I always find that to be a bit funny because you still need a Legacy base, you need the MTH cable, the Lionel SER2 w/ power supply and a Legacy engine.  It's not as simple as the advertising makes it.  MTH's app though is pretty awesome once you do purchase all the "stuff" you need to run Legacy via DCS.  I certainly wouldn't waste my time if it weren't for the app because you lose too much.

If you are patient and do get both you will be rewarded but as you have already seen in your research, DCS seems to have more challenges. Again once overcome definitely worth it.

breezinup posted:

Geojr posted:

I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?

I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???

Well, Barry's DCS Companion book on DCS operation has 242 pages. The Lionel Legacy Operator's Manual has 84 pages. That's not a precise apples to apples comparison for purposes of evaluating complexity, but it may provide some indication of an answer to your questions.

Personally, model trains that need a 242 page guidebook by an electrical engineer to explain how to do things aren't on my menu. I'm more interested in running trains than tinkering with them. Basic operation will require far less, of course. Nonetheless, I think the comparison has validity. But many folks will have a different point of view, and there are lots of DCS fans. Reading about DCS technicalities just makes my eyes start crossing, though. 

 

Problem with your page the theory is the DCS book explains how to run TMCC and Legacy on the DCS system while also hooking up accessories and switches. Lionel Legacy manual does NON of that. Why? Because it won't work maybe?

NYC 428 posted:

I think the answer to this question is simple, go with the system that best fits your current locomotive inventory. 

If the majority of your equipment is Rail King and/or Premier go with DCS, if its Lionel, Atlas & 3rd rail go with Legacy.

How complicated a system becomes, is based on how many of the features you want to take advantage of.  Both systems are easy to operate if all your looking to do is program your locomotive and simply run it,  However, they get more and more complicated as you venture deeper and deeper into special features.

If your just starting out you probably won't be getting in too deep, so either system is fine.  Once you start getting deeper into the hobby and acquire locomotives from all the different manufactures you'll want to take advantage of everything these systems have to offer and probably end up with both.

Start small and work your way into it.  Although it's true that you can operate Lionel equipment through DCS it does not give you access to everything Legacy has to offer, nor does Legacy have all the features that DCS has to offer.  Both are excellent systems, but they do have there issues !

Sorry NOT TRUE! The app will let you do just that with all the features. It is the premier app not the basic app.

Geojr posted:

Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

And that sir is why we have choices. Not just in trains but in almost everything. YOU have to do what is best for YOU and what YOU will be most happy with. Most important thing out there. Second most important thing is to KEEP HAVING FUN because THAT is what it really is all about. HAPPINESS!

MartyE posted:

I would certainly purchase both if you could.  It certainly lets you buy a wider variety of locomotives.  I do find DCS to be more feature rich, many of them IMO gimmicky and probably not used by 90% of folks but still adding play value, more than Legacy has.  The setup can be a little more work than Legacy for DCS but Legacy does have a few quirks to keep in mind.

As far as DCS running Legacy, I always find that to be a bit funny because you still need a Legacy base, you need the MTH cable, the Lionel SER2 w/ power supply and a Legacy engine.  It's not as simple as the advertising makes it.  MTH's app though is pretty awesome once you do purchase all the "stuff" you need to run Legacy via DCS.  I certainly wouldn't waste my time if it weren't for the app because you lose too much.

If you are patient and do get both you will be rewarded but as you have already seen in your research, DCS seems to have more challenges. Again once overcome definitely worth it.

Very well said Marty. I wish I could learn to be as eloquent and simple with my answers. I know what I am trying to say but somewhere between the Brain and fingers things get jumbled.

SURFLINER posted:

Spoke with MTH Customer Service today on another matter & asked about the DCS remotes no longer being produced -  was told when present stock is gone - that is it - no more.

Like I said, no encoder parts, so no more remotes.   In addition, if the encoder on your existing remote dies, that remote is toast as well.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

SURFLINER posted:

Spoke with MTH Customer Service today on another matter & asked about the DCS remotes no longer being produced -  was told when present stock is gone - that is it - no more.

Like I said, no encoder parts, so no more remotes.   In addition, if the encoder on your existing remote dies, that remote is toast as well.

Unless your brave like me..repair went well and still working.

breezinup posted:

Geojr posted:

Every time I start up a legacy - guess what -  I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.

Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”,  “No TIU found”, etc..

That will put an end to the DCS hassles.

I'm not tracking this. You started the thread by saying "I’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both."  But here you talk about your experience running both Legacy and DCS with your trains. It sounds like you already own both DCS and Legacy. And you also say "Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore."

All pretty confusing. Given the DCS problems you claim you've had and the positive experience with Legacy you claim you've had, and having been running 40 engines over a period of years, it sounds like you answered - or should have answered - your own question before you started this thread.

Breezinup hit the nail right on the head here.

This whole thread is turning into the classic "Ford" vs. "Chevy" and in the end nobody wins, a lot of people complain & wine, the moderators get involved & become unhappy, and then it eventually gets locked or deleted.

If you already knew what you knew about DCS, making up your mind should have been pretty easy before this topic was posted.

Curtish

Let me ask you, does the app come with the handheld?.......NOPE, will you need to purchase a Smart Phone or Tablet in order to download and use the app?......YES,  Do you assume everyone has a Smart Phone or Tablet? (you know what happens when you make assumptions).

The truth is that access to all Legacy features is NOT accessible with the standard DCS set-up of TIU and Handheld, nor through the standard app.

One needs to spend a considerable amount of extra cash if they don't already have the aforementioned electronic equipment.   

If the person indicates that there on a limited budget "i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both" there probably not interested in getting that deep into the system yet.

I don't object to the additional information you impart, However, I do object to the arrogance you display in your response " Sorry NOT TRUE! The app will let you do just that with all the features. It is the premier app not the basic app.

A simple comment such as " although the off the shelf version of DCS (handheld plus TIU will not avail itself to all Legacy features, MTH does offer a premier app (for additional cash) that does.

I'm relatively new to DCS (Feb. 2018) and other than a few initial glitches, the system has been great. I chose DCS because all my modern locos are MTH PS1 and thought it best to use the MTH system in them for command upgrades.  I've also had 3 Williams conventional locos converted to DCS and all is good. 

The one thing I don't like about DCS is MTH's apparent decision to stop producing the handheld remote, which will ultimately force anyone using DCS to use their phones/tablets to run trains. Bottom line, it's their business decision to make and the free market will determine whether or not it was a good one for them. In the world of electronics, planned obsolescence seems to be alive and well, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lionel did the same thing at some point. 

John

Model train enthusiasts are (I think I am safe in saying) MOSTLY "of a certain age", and many resent being forced to "upgrade" to tablets, smart phones, etc. to do what they want to do.  See "Jitterbug Flip" phones.   

Will that change, and will 30- 40- somethings jump into the model RR hobby?  We hope so, but only time will tell.

My guess:  the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH.  Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".

NYC 428 posted:

Curtish

Let me ask you, does the app come with the handheld?.......NOPE, will you need to purchase a Smart Phone or Tablet in order to download and use the app?......YES,  Do you assume everyone has a Smart Phone or Tablet? (you know what happens when you make assumptions).

The truth is that access to all Legacy features is NOT accessible with the standard DCS set-up of TIU and Handheld, nor through the standard app.

One needs to spend a considerable amount of extra cash if they don't already have the aforementioned electronic equipment.   

If the person indicates that there on a limited budget "i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both" there probably not interested in getting that deep into the system yet.

I don't object to the additional information you impart, However, I do object to the arrogance you display in your response " Sorry NOT TRUE! The app will let you do just that with all the features. It is the premier app not the basic app.

A simple comment such as " although the off the shelf version of DCS (handheld plus TIU will not avail itself to all Legacy features, MTH does offer a premier app (for additional cash) that does.

 

 

 

NYC 428

Sorry to offend you. Was not the intention. Smart phones and tablets are plentiful for FREE!. People get new ones and are more than willing to pass on the old ones. Since you aren't connecting to the internet or using as a phone only the WiFi is needed to connect to MTH System. The original OP as you stated was asking about Legacy vs DCS on a limited budget. I was trying to point out as others have that LATER he may have funding to expand. If that is the case he should plan now. That would mean he could run DCS limited now but with full features later along with running Legacy limited now but full featured later. As for the Sorry Not True there was not any arrogance intended (Hence the SORRY) and I apologize for upsetting YOU as that was not the intention. AS I have said in a different post sometime I do not post eloquently so some people get offended. I guess it would be better according to yo to not post at all. I again apologize as I did not realize wording had to be that watched so as not to offend people. I guess in short It fits with the rest of society today don't offend anyone even if unintentional.

Again there was and is still nothing I post meant to HURT anyone's feelings. I am only trying to give an OPINION that answers the original question.

Mike Wyatt posted:

My guess:  the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH.  Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".

Well, Lionel hasn't discontinued the "remote" for the LC+ 2.0 line, it's called Legacy CAB2, Legacy Lite CAB1L, or the LC Universal Remote!   You can even still find tons of the old TMCC command bases and remotes in the used market. 

For separate sale locomotives, neither Lionel or MTH provides a remote, you have to have the matching command system.  For sets, Lionel's answer is the plain LC product, for MTH, it's the WiFi Explorer.

It's also notable that Lionel has a universal answer for an inexpensive real physical remote for all the LC and LC+ locomotives, it's called the Universal Remote, street price $30-35.  With the demise of the MTH remote, the ONLY way to control their command stuff will be a smart phone or tablet.  My personal opinion is MTH is not doing themselves any favor not having any physical remote for their command system.  Time will tell if my opinion counts for anything.

Mike Wyatt posted:

 

My guess:  the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH.  Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".

Just curious, how many individual remotes do you need?  Do you really need a remote per engine?  Seems like a lot of unnecessary hardware. 

When the remotes are gone, I’ll go back to conventional. With my Legacy Cab ll l use it like a movable around the room transformer. Speed, direction and coupler is all I ever use. If I am ever  inclined to start over I’ll go with a different scale and go with the NMRA standard DCC. Items will always be available. My feeling is that the two major players are moving in the wrong direction. Too much frustration fo me. 

romiller49 posted:

When the remotes are gone, I’ll go back to conventional. With my Legacy Cab ll l use it like a movable around the room transformer. Speed, direction and coupler is all I ever use. If I am ever  inclined to start over I’ll go with a different scale and go with the NMRA standard DCC. Items will always be available. My feeling is that the two major players are moving in the wrong direction. Too much frustration fo me. 

I already run most of my MTH PS3 on DCC depending on which layout I am operating on. Integrating DCC into the locomotives is a definite move in the right direction.

MartyE posted:

< I do find DCS to be more feature rich, many of them IMO gimmicky and probably not used by 90% of folks but still adding play value, more than Legacy has.  >

 

Agree Marty, of all the never used features they keep why MTH decided to drop the Grade Crossing Signal soft key from their "Lash-Up" baffles me. The only nearly impossible to perform with the MTH remote task and they eliminate it. Should have eliminated the "Two Toots" as anyone can do that. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 

... My personal opinion is MTH is not doing themselves any favor not having any physical remote for their command system.  Time will tell if my opinion counts for anything.

 I certainly agree with you here!  I've tried, but still much prefer the remotes over the apps.

I also prefer the remote, I had the wifi and never really  liked it.

I think the whole system was released before it was ready for prime time. I have protected myself by buying another remote. They should last the rest of my lifetime and most likely longer. 

Dave

I have a few remotes, whenever I've seen a really good deal on one, I've scooped it up.  I'm keeping a couple of the now unobtainium thumbwheels in stock for repairs.