DCS vs Lionel's control?

I'll just copy/paste an explanation I gave to another new member last month:

For the longest time, conventional control meant one loco per transformer.

Some transformers had two or more controls built-in (such as the ZW). You still had one loco per control, and running trains on both controls meant they had to be on physically separate loops of track.

Connecting the two loops with crossover switches usually meant electrically separating them, primarily by replacing the center-rail pin between the two switches with a plastic one. Each train becomes capable of changing tracks, with the complication being that if one train moves onto a track occupied by another, both trains are being run by one control handle and you lose independent control.

--Since both trains may run at different speeds for a given voltage, you'd likely have trouble keeping them from running into each other without adding even more insulating pins to create sections of track you could disable with power switches, thus stopping one of the trains. But this is starting to get complicated, and you still don't really have independent control of the two trains.

Enter command control.

The idea with command control is you (or the factory) outfit each loco with a circuit board that acts like a miniature robo-engineer that only responds to commands sent specifically to it by way of a remote that talks to a control box that either sits between the transformer and the track or in parallel with it. One power source supplies the track at a constant voltage (usually 16-18 volts), but the locomotives suitably equipped only take what they're told to do. This means multiple locos on the same track can all be controlled independently.

The two main systems on the market are MTH's Digital Command System (DCS), controlling Protosound 2 and 3 locomotives (Protosound 1, or PS1 isn't command control--it's only a sound board in a conventional loco) and Lionel's Legacy system, which is an updated, expanded version of Trainmaster Command Control (TMCC), also made by Lionel.

Both systems can control conventional locomotives, albeit with the same restrictions  of traditional transformer control outlined in my first four paragraphs.
--With DCS, the ability to do so is built into two of the four outputs* on the control box, called a Track Interface Unit (TIU).
--Under TMCC or Legacy, this requires a separate box called a 'track power controller' (TPC) that connects to the TMCC/Legacy command base and acts as a remote-controlled transformer handle.

A DCS system can operate TMCC locomotives in command mode by connecting a TMCC or Legacy Command base to the TIU via a cable supplied by MTH as shown below:



Lionel made the control codes for TMCC public, as well as licensing the system out to a number of other manufacturers in an effort to standardize its system, which made DCS control of a TMCC command base possible. However MTH kept its DCS control codes a closely-guarded secret (and when Lionel developed Legacy, it also chose to keep the additional feature codes a company secret). The end result of this is DCS can operate a connected TMCC or Legacy command base, but it can only issue TMCC-level commands to Legacy locomotives. A TMCC or Legacy remote isn't able to talk to the DCS system at all.

Both systems can co-exist on the same layout. Since their transmission styles and protocols are different, you can run locos from both systems on the same track without interfering with one another:


In the above pic, the lead unit is a DCS loco, the one coupled behind it is a TMCC unit.(they're on their maiden test run so I hadn't removed all the foam strips yet) I ran these coupled together pulling a train using just a DCS remote (at the time I didn't have a TMCC remote), switching back and forth to sync up their speeds. It was a real juggling act, but I pulled it off.

By the way, locos from all the above systems will operate in conventional--just that the advanced features won't be accessible.

---PCJ

 

(*actually all four outputs can be set for either mode from the remote, but from the factory the TIU is configured as two fixed and two variable outputs)

Thanks RailRide.  So, since I have DCS it's really advisable to stay with MTH engines unless I'm willing to buy the block to attach to the TIU... correct?

D

That will be the only way to control either a Lionel TMCC engine or Legacy engine by command using DCS. As stated by RailRide, both systems can co-exist on the same layout, so if you do buy the TMCC Command Base with the accompanied Cab-1 controller, you can actually have two people operating different engines on the same layout, one with the DCS remote and one with the Cab-1 remote. The remotes are different and each has beneficial features, though I prefer the DCS remote. (You can also purchase another DCS remote and two people can be controlling different engines also). 

 

Legacy is another ballgame yet. With my budget I had to opt for one or the other. My option was to go the DCS route and add the TMCC. Now I run both MTH, modern Lionel, and post-war Lionel that has been upgraded with command control electronics. 

 

Just one note on the compatibility issue. It seems that there are a few Lionel engines that when used on the DCS system with TMCC command base that they do interfere with the signal somewhat, not all....just some. I have one that definitely has some effect on the signal. That issue may be addressed in Barry's new book on DCS.

 

 

Rick

If you're only operating in command-control mode, yes.

 

Any TMCC/Legacy locomotives you acquire will effectively be conventional units until you hook up a TMCC command base (as pictured above) or Legacy base unit (or the upcoming "Legacy Lite" known as the CAB-1L/Base-1L (6-37147)).

 

I mention the TMCC Command base by itself because they seem to be a little easier to acquire than the CAB-1 remote that goes with it (which is genuinely difficult to find). I recently got lucky and found a new TMCC CAB-1/Command Base combo--but "luck" is the operative word--I only had a Command Base for more than a year before my "lucky find" and was thus controlling my TMCC locos via the DCS remote.

 

If you go the Legacy or CAB/Base-1L route, those setups will already have their own remotes so it'll be up to you whether or not to connect them to your TIU.

 

---PCJ

I run both systems, Legacy and DCS. I have two main ~100' loops and will run two trains (or more) on each loop.  One loop I will run DCS engines and the other loop Legacy engines.  It is easy to run and switch between two engines per remote. Two button pushes on DCS and one on Legacy.  You can run more than two engines at a time with either, but it requires a lot more button pushing and you can easily get slightly fumble fingered and take to long to get there.  I run like systems on a loop because cruse control really helps keep the rear enders down.  If you set the engines for the same speed they will stay apart.  It depends on your layout and how you run your trains.  If your buy Legacy steam you really need to get the legacy system to hear it to it's full potential.

Dan

When does the new DCS book come out?

 

Rick,

When does the new DCS book come out?

Actually, that book is available right now.  

 

Everything you need to know about DCS (and integration with both TMCC and Legacy) and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

I really got scared there Barry.  You told me to buy it a few weeks ago and I did.  I had to check to see I have 2nd Edition- Yes, I do.  Didn't want to scrap it to buy another.  I must say, your book has been immensely helpful to me.  'd still be lost without it and probably cuss DCS every day.

Thanks,

David

David,

Didn't want to scrap it to buy another

As things stand right now, there most likely won't be a 3rd edition of the current book. I'm currently working on a new project on a related subject.

 

The subject of my next DCS book, however, will be the "new DCS" that MTH announced a year ago at York. At present, I don't have a date for its delivery and, obviously, anything I develop is tied to MTH's development schedule.

Barry, I don't have the first edition is it ok to just purchase vol 2 or is the first edition necessary  too?

I don't have the first edition is it ok to just purchase vol 2 or is the first edition necessary  too?

The 2nd edition includes everything in the 1st edition, plus about 43 pages of additional information. It was a very big update.  

In the current issue of O Gauge Railroading, Run 263, Page 65, 5th paragraph, the owner of a mufti-layer layout reports signal issues with the TMCC Legacy System on the lower levels. In my research, I found complaints about TMCC Legacy signal loss in tunnels, especially metal ones. I would also think that mountain tunnels using wire screening as a scenery base will be problematic with TMCC Legacy.

 

The reason for the TMCC Legacy command signal issue is that this system uses an airborne radio command signal in contrast to DCS which puts its command signal into the track.

Bobby Ogauge,

   Your engineering reasoning is sound, after much engineering analysis this was my

initial reasoning for actually choosing the DCS over the TMCC, however even now I am thinking on adding the TMCC/Legacy to my 5 level FasTrack DCS layout, after being invited to run Patrick H's incredible layout, I do see certain additional advantages to operating both MTH DCS & Lionel TMCC/Legacy together. 

PCRR/Dave

 

 

Any hints has to when we might see this new DCS system? A year, two, three?

Probably.

I run DCS with a Lionel Command base/CAB1. I have a Z4K.  I use the variable outputs on the TIU.  This combo has allowed me to run TMCC and Legacy engines. They both command very well.  Also this setup (using variable output) allows for great control of conventional engines with the handhelds.

Alan