"Deal me out..." pushing away form the S gauge table.

I can understand the frustration for sure Ben.

I sent you an email.

NotInWI posted:

I'll pass the dead horse up here, but essentially the lack of growth, manufacture's support and total lack of items in the market place that support more of a out of the box envionrment have become to much to deal with when compared to HO.  

I had purchased a few MTH HO pieces about a month ago, just to dip my toe, and the water is pretty nice.  Outfits like Intermountain, Broadway Limited (with a big boy that has smoking whistle and depleting coal load in HO - not to mention the rolling thunder system) Atlas, Walthers, scaletrains.com....the list goes on...they have provided a never ending wave of product that opens a lot of doors for the enjoyment of the hobby for me.  

 

Ben 

 

 

Ben, you've hit the nail on what many of the "Lifers" (both Traditional Flyer and Scale folk) fail to realize:  There's a very vibrant world of model railroading outside of S.

Your thoughts are similar to what has crossed my mind from time to time. 

S has always been a tough scale to be in and it's gotten tougher.  While I'm still sticking with it, my optimism has taken a severe beating over the last couple of years.  Personally, I no longer feel comfortable recommending S.

Good luck with your HO endeavors.

Rusty

Mark

...I am in my prime...

I have a lotta reefers from SHS, but not the two you have mentioned. I will get you some info once I get everything listed out. 

Ben

Ben,

Best wishes and good luck in HO.  I can understand your points from above.  I've left S scale behind as well for the same reasons as you.  Coming from S, it seems as though HO moves at light speed and just keeps improving.  

Sure you don't want to come over to O?     I'm new at model railroading (been at it since December) and was really, really close to getting into S but did some research and found that it's one of the, if not the smallest markets in the hobby.  That was the primary reason I jumped into O.  I looked at all the LHS stores in my metroplex and none of them carried any S.  That clued me in right there that it would be difficult to secure product. 

S is interesting though as it does seem to be the "right size".  I wonder why it never took off like HO?

McGee

One if the cool things about making the decision was having a clean slate, any scale is an option now.  I looked at O, I am more closely associated with O than any other scale (after S) just because Lionel was making most of what I had. But given my space, going to O from S seems to be a little more limiting in my designated space (15' by 17' ish). HO was my best bet, especially if I wanted to justify my reason for the departure from S.  More. Product.  

Ben

CSX Troy posted:

Ben,

Best wishes and good luck in HO.  I can understand your points from above.  I've left S scale behind as well for the same reasons as you.  Coming from S, it seems as though HO moves at light speed and just keeps improving.  

Thanks CSX!

Ben

HO does have a lot of choices.  Also, there isn't that yearly catalog cycle as HO manufacturers announce new items throughout the year.  I am also a member of a HO Modular club so I can buy and run some modern stuff from time to time.  

Brendan

Not to be difficult, but I have liked the whole unique niche of S.  

I would be overwhelmed by HO or O.  There is so much product out there and I would tempted by it all.  The very lack of product and the necessity to scratchbuild or kitbash if I want a model of a specific prototype keep my layout and purchases relatively small and well within my budget.  

I am lucky that the current state of S meets my needs.  I can see that if you have other needs, other scales may be what are right for you.

LittleTommy 

Ben

I agree with your observation and I have been thinning my S collection. Its just sad that this gauge is ignored and the choices are so limited. American Models tries but is also limited with their offerings. Lionel and MTH are clueless when it comes to S.  The Flyer chief Berkshires were a hit but Lionel has not reproduced them, and MTH F3's couplers look stupid.  Very frustrating and the reason I am in O gauge and HO. I would prefer S because I think it is the perfect size but the lack of product is stunning! Maybe some day someone will market this gauge with success.

Ben, sorry to see you leave S gauge but have to respect your making that tough decision. I admit were I your age and at that point in my model train hobby I might not ride out the lack of new S gauge product either. I got into HO very early and amassed a nice collection beginning with original Gilbert HO, but it never really held my interest, kept coming back to S so I gave all the HO to my brother and his boys. I hope HO turns out to be the right long term choice for you.

I think a modeling scale is a medium to work in, and nothing more. Definitely go with what makes you happy. Life is too short to do it any other way!

I never felt completely comfortable in any scale until I started with On30--and it is perfect for my current interests. I also buy some HO nowadays, as I can run it on my layout when I'm in the mood to play around with 4'8.5" models.

Jeff C

What ever scale works for you, that is the way to go. I think, I have dabbled in 7 scales, enjoyed them all but different factors  induced changes. Now it is old and post war O and Standard(the old stuff) but not totally locked in to any.

Been down that road, and switched to HO from S and it ended up being the biggest nightmare I ever experienced. There may well be many more choices of equipment in HO, but the operational headaches will more than offset that positive.

Tin

There is more S around than most people have room for

No offense, but I do wonder what you expected with getting into the Rodney Dangerfield of scales. I’ve hit a LOT of hobby shops in my lifetime and I don’t think I can recall every seeing anything in S other than a random car or two. I have no idea what structures exist as I don’t remember the last time I saw an ad for any S structure kits. Plenty of die-cast cars in that scale, though.

Heck, the only S scale layout I can think of is this one.

I understand your issue on wanting to go smaller instead of bigger in scale. That’s usually a smart move as most people don’t want to lose operating room. And nobody could EVER question that you can find almost anything in HO, decades before anyone thinks of making the same items in any other scale (except maybe N).

Good luck with the sale!

p51 posted:

 

Heck, the only S scale layout I can think of is this one.

Chopped Liver???

My little patch of S Scale may not be published, famous or as well detailed as Brooks' BC&G, but I've been posting photo's of it here since I joined the Forum in 2009...

Rusty

Thanks for the well wishes! 

P51, no offense taken.  And you have a point, however my start is S was not a conscious decision to get into the hobby really.  

About 10-12 years ago I got my fathers old Flyer set.  I got it running, and slowly added a piece here and there. By the time I got into really collecting it was more compulsory and I had no set direction, and what I thought I wanted that was not yet in the market, I thought Lionel was going to make.  Right about 2012 it seems, at a minimum, I had an unrealistic expectation that the market was growing and the offerings were going to keep pace.  

It's on me for not doing my homework, but as my interest I'm the hobby developed I just kinda bought stuff.  It's really now (or the last year or two) where I have an idea of what I want out of the hobby and what my direction is, and the unfortunate realization that I probably can't meet my expectations in S.

Ben  

S is out there but its not a local hobby shop scale,even if you can find a local hobby shop any more.

Doug-Sr posted:

S is out there but its not a local hobby shop scale,even if you can find a local hobby shop any more.

 

That, unfortunately is very true.  It is the biggest drawback.  "Well, you gotta search the Web or ebay" isn't a good answer to folks that might otherwise become interested in S.

It's something S Scalers/Gaugers have wrestled with for at least the 32 years I've been in S.

Rusty

I've spent most of a lifetime in S. All throughout those 60+ years, I've heard all the complaints about the lack of equipment in S. In the mid-sixties when Gilbert gave up the ghost, the scale almost died. But then along came the likes of AM and SHS and yes, Lionel. S not only survived but hope was raised that the scale might not only survive, but expand. I took my turn at the helm of the National Association of S Gaugers and bent over backwards to promote the scale. I was driven by my love for S. When someone comes aboard, I rejoice and when someone defects like now, I lament. But S will go on. There are many of us who will never leave the scale no matter what happens.

My own layout is 20 years old now. It is a scale layout with a section devoted to the East Broad Top (Sn3).
I'm too old to brag, but I want to mention that I've managed to produce a layout that is 29' X 45' and is populated with about 250 cars. Pretty good for a scale that hasn't much to offer.

So if you're interested in seeing another S scale layout you can go to:
royhoffman.com/pwrr

I respect your decision to go on to HO, but I for one won't be joining you.

Roy Hoffman

NotInWI posted:

Mark,   I have a lotta reefers from SHS, but not the two you have mentioned. I will get you some info once I get everything listed out. Ben

Ben, not sure if it is true, but do you you have a layout?  From looking at your photos, perhaps some of your frustration is from having all that great equipment and nothing to do with it.    Sorry if wrong.

Given the slow product development in S, I think the "best" way to proceed in S is to look at what S material you have on hand or can buy easily then envision, design and build your layout based on that. (just my opinion).

Then, when and if something new and great comes to the market, you can modify your vision, design and layout to accommodate those items.

I envisioned and built my layout 35 years ago as a barely solvent bridge route between Utica and Lackawanna NY (roughly following the routes of the interurban cars that ran in that area in the 1920's) that purchased outdated motive power from other roads and ran a bunch of locals with a hodgepodge of old steam and retired diesels in 1958.  Then, as new items come on the market, my railroad either leased power from or gave trackage rights to the NYC, PRR, LV, DL&W and Erie, some through freights and passenger trains were put on the timetable and the timeframe was moved to Fall 1959.  Since I built the layout, 10 "gotta have 'em" structures have come on the market, and I built extensions or rebuilt the scenery to accommodate them

On my wish list are a Geep or "Covered Wagon" in Erie paint, and if one or both ever comes to the market before I die, I will modify the schedule and timetable again. If they don't come on the market, the only Erie train running on the layout will  be a mixed local running from the Southern tier of NY State into Buffalo behind a beat up 4-4-0.  

I'm not saying this is the only way to build a railroad in S but it keeps things dynamic.   

By the way, a Great railroad in S is Ed Loizeaux's pike see https://youtu.be/xYsud5D4pi0 

LittleTommy

Rusty Traque posted:

p51 posted:

 

Heck, the only S scale layout I can think of is this one.

Chopped Liver???

My little patch of S Scale may not be published, famous or as well detailed as Brooks' BC&G, but I've been posting photo's of it here since I joined the Forum in 2009...

You just answered your own question. I mentioned the ones I'd heard of. There's plenty of everything out there, but when it comes to S, I can only think of maybe 2 layouts I'd heard of before.

I don't live on this forum, so it's easy for this layout (and others like it) to skip past me.

NotInWI posted:

P51, no offense taken.  And you have a point, however my start is S was not a conscious decision to get into the hobby really.  

About 10-12 years ago I got my fathers old Flyer set.  I got it running, and slowly added a piece here and there. By the time I got into really collecting it was more compulsory and I had no set direction, and what I thought I wanted that was not yet in the market, I thought Lionel was going to make.  Right about 2012 it seems, at a minimum, I had an unrealistic expectation that the market was growing and the offerings were going to keep pace.  

Fair enough. I stumbled in G in a similar fashion (bought an LGB starter set in Amsterdam, of all places and yes, I still have that asset) and it took a while for me to realize I'd never be able to get away from the 'extreme shorty and toy-looking' qualities of G. I'd sold off all my G and never really regretted doing so, especially once I found On30 so I could model the same concept I wanted back then, but at a far more manageable size and cost.

You'll do fine, I'm sure.

Radioron

In short, you are right.  I have no dedicated layout.  I have a loop of track and some switches that I have on the dining room table 8-9 months out of the year.  I did what I think is a decent amount of running with that set up.  In addition I would occasionally run some of my stuff on a buddy's large basement layout.  

Maybe if I had a dedicated layout I would feel differently.  But who knows, I think I would have been put off just the same with a ES44 pulling 40s and 50s rolling stock. 

Ben

I can certainly understand anyone wanting to change scales. It is a hobby, so we must all find the medium with which to express our artistic side. However, just to make sure that the facts are listed, may I draw your attention to the NASG web site? The following page has a listing of all S-scale layouts that are readily available for viewing on the Web:

http://www.nasg.org/Scale/LayoutsOnTheWeb.php

It also has a listing of all the known S-scale companies that make products, including tons of structure kits:

http://www.nasg.org/Resources/All.php

There are lots of opportunities to view S-scale in person:

http://www.nasg.org/Events/Events.php

And, there is always something new coming out in our scale:

http://www.nasg.org/News/Products.php

There is plenty to view on the web site to see what is going on in S-scale. I switched from N-scale to S-scale in 2008, and my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. There is plenty to model in S-scale. I enjoy building, and it is so much easier in the larger scale. I am with Roy Hoffman, and I am staying with S-scale. Yes, S suffers from the chicken-n-egg situation: stores don't stock S because there is no demand for it; and there is no demand for it because stores don't stock it. Someone has to break that stalemate. I am doing it by offering my time to maintain the NASG web site as its webmaster. I simply buy my products online.

I'm having fun!

 - Peter.

There's also the S Scale Resource online magazine, the O Scale Resource's sister publication.

Even Model Railroader's had several article's over the past year written by S Scalers.  The latest issue has a scenery article written by Monon modeller Roger Nulton.

Rusty

Peter,

I see the listing that is on the NASG website of layouts and it looks like  posted only are S scale layouts. I am sure that if NASG also would list the S highrail and American Flyer layouts that are out there you would also have much, much more to display. In the Badgerland club we have several of the S American Flyer layouts plus a number of Highrail layouts. I am sure that our club is not the only club where these are not represented on our NASG website. Some of these layouts have videos on You-tube showing some of the layouts in different stages of construction. We, who have these, some toy train, some Highrail are having fun also, but sometimes we feel a little forgotten and left out by the NASG.

Ray

Flyer S Gauge Home Layout, Operating Session, March 19, 2016.WhiskeyRR

Ray's S Gauge American Flyer Home Layout Construction

• 9:47

  Ray Puls American Flyer "S" Gauge Layout Part 1

  • 13:52

    Running Trains On Ray's American Flyer S Gauge Layout

    OWNER: Ray Puls
    LAYOUT TYPE: Single Level with Single main walk around consisting of two loops. The outer loop is a modified oval with about 70 to 80 feet of track. The inner loop is a dogbone laid over itself with about 130 to 149 ft of track.

    RAIL CODE: Code 215 American Flyer rail on all mains and sidings and using AF rubber roadbed
    POWERED BY: AC mains with TMCC controls using one 22090, and one 22035 American Flyer transformers. The mains also include blocks powered through Lionel Powermasters to allow the operation of conventional locomotives with the TMCC wireless remote.

    I have been interested in model railroading and trains as far back as I can recall. We received an American Flyer train for Christmas in 1952 and my brother and I played with it for endless hours. I saw the end of Gilbert in the sixties and when my interest in trains was reawakened I moved to HO because I thought S gauge was dead. It was a visit to a hobby shop on the north side of Milwaukee in the early 90s where I found some used American Flyer equipment that my interest in S was reignited; I bought everything in Flyer S that was in the store. Shortly after that I discovered the Badgerland S gauge swap meet and John Heck and his array of American Flyer trains. The accumulation of Flyer has also been augmented the addition of some S Helper and American Models rolling stock along with K-Line and the Lionel Flyer. It has been great to be involved with the people who love S gauge and the hobby of trains whether its collecting or operating or just playing with these wonderful toys.

     In the basement of this country home is a layout that Ray calls his It's My Rail Road division. The layout is intended to allow for operation as well as being a layout on which you can just run trains for fun. The layout will have groupings of buildings representing towns or villages with names as yet to be determined; and these will also define the names of the blocks.  A number of the sidings will have operating accessories, some original Gilbert and some made by Lionel and MTH.

    The IMRR, N. P. Division table is approximately 8 feet wide by 35 feet long with consideration to a reasonable walk around space. The bench work is built using framing lumber with buss wires running around the table under each set of rails. All buss wiring is minimum 14 ga to provide sufficient power for the trains.  There are accessory wires under the table as well powered by their own 30B transformer which allows the speed of the accessories to be throttled. The layout can run multiple trains at the same time each having their own remote throttles. The buttons for the turnouts and accessories surround the outside within easy reach of the operators.

    This is my third layout, my first was an HO scale layout and was torn down when we moved to our present home, the second layout was built using modules that were also used on our club layout. This being my third is built as a modular layout so if we were to move it will not have to be destroyed but rather revamped to fit the new location.

    With the TMCC that was recently added, Ray enjoys the operation very much. As each of the locos is converted it adds more excitement to his operation.

If you merely compare the amount of product available in S gauge to that in O, HO, N, etc., the decision to avoid or move away from that gauge might seem a no-brainer. But, while I can’t say this for sure, I suspect a good many of us already have far more equipment than we can operate on our layouts at any given time anyway, yet we seem to talk about buying more trains the same way we buy groceries, as a never-ending process. How much is enough? I think we have become too obsessed with the continual buying of new product and for many of us it has become an end rather than a means to enjoying our hobby. If that’s what pleases you then go right ahead, but millions of modelers, young and old, have enjoyed this hobby in the past with far less equipment than most of us have today. 

Even the realistic features continually added to our trains seem to be a never-ending quest, becoming a case of one-upmanship among manufacturers as much as a means to enjoying them more. We then have seemingly endless threads lamenting the breaking or malfunctioning of these features.

I’m not even an S guy, having noticed this thread in the “recent posts” feature of the forum. But I’ve often thought that if I had it to do over again I’d strongly consider going with S gauge. I could focus on enjoying a modest layout (all I have room for anyway) without being distracted and tempted by the relative large amount of new product continually being offered in O gauge. I also love the realism of the two rails, while still having some of the toy-like qualities and accessories available in O.

For a lot of people in today's hectic world, model railroading is therapeutic so buy what you want and can afford and enjoy even if you don't run it all in any gauge.

Rayin"S" posted:

Peter,

I see the listing that is on the NASG website of layouts and it looks like  posted only are S scale layouts. I am sure that if NASG also would list the S highrail and American Flyer layouts that are out there you would also have much, much more to display.

Did you check the American Flyer photo gallery link on the NASG site?  Pete has done a great job since taking over the NASG website, and like everything else, it relies on mainly on contributions.

Rusty

Rusty,

I agree that Pete has done a great job on the website and I apologise if it sounds as though I am gripping. I am just pointing out that what I see in the listing of S layouts is nothing among all those listed is high rail or American Flyer.

Ray

Rayin"S" posted:

Rusty,

I agree that Pete has done a great job on the website and I apologise if it sounds as though I am gripping. I am just pointing out that what I see in the listing of S layouts is nothing among all those listed is high rail or American Flyer.

Ray

Most likely because none of the Flyer/HiRail folks offered their layouts to be listed.  You can't force someone to list their railroad.

Rusty

Fair enough. I stumbled in G in a similar fashion (bought an LGB starter set in Amsterdam, of all places and yes, I still have that asset) and it took a while for me to realize I'd never be able to get away from the 'extreme shorty and toy-looking' qualities of G. I'd sold off all my G and never really regretted doing so, especially once I found On30 so I could model the same concept I wanted back then, but at a far more manageable size and cost.

You'll do fine, I'm sure.

Lee, you have a neat On30 layout. Yes there are G cars and engines that are still short, but today G scale is very alive and offers many opportunities to model in every time period from old time to modern day diesels. Just pick up a copy of Garden Railways magazine. Sorry not trying yo hi jack this thread. Besides O and S G scale seemed to have a fairly large representation at York. 

As for S scale the hi rail part has always intrigued me. American models produces many cool engines and cars. The big choices are, should I choose scale, hi rail and AC or DC powered. S is definitely the orphan scale but it's size offers great advantages.

I fall into Germans philosophy noted above "we tend to buy model trains like groceries".

Rusty Traque posted:

Rayin"S" posted:

Rusty,

I agree that Pete has done a great job on the website and I apologise if it sounds as though I am gripping. I am just pointing out that what I see in the listing of S layouts is nothing among all those listed is high rail or American Flyer.

Ray

Most likely because none of the Flyer/HiRail folks offered their layouts to be listed.  You can't force someone to list their railroad.

You may well be correct, I do not know if I had been an NASG member when request was made for layout information.

Ray

I also find myself second guessing  running S when I see all the options available in the other scales at train shows. The choice for S was made by my grandfather when he bought the trains for my father that I now run with my son. I am able to find things in S to buy and keep myself in good graces with my wife. I could definitely see getting in BIG trouble in another scale.

Ben,

I cannot fault your decision as I, too, have come close do leaving S gauge as my primary scale for the same reasons including lack of variety and ready availability of product and information.  I am also a "Legacy" American Flyer guy; not the Lionel operating system, but a guy whose model train hobby began with the AF sets purchased in the late '40s and early '50s by my Dad.  Although I tend to acquire what I like regardless of scale or gauge (And I like it all!), I have maintained my nearly inborn affection for Gilbert AF.

Nevertheless, I nearly abandoned S scale in the early 1960s for a number of reasons: Gilbert was failing, HO was growing, and even O gauge had some appeal. Lionel was nominally still in business, I had some Marx already, and three circles of various sizes of O gauge track could be put in about the space of one circle of AF S track.  Had not the period of life where cars, girls, college, etc. seem to displace "toy" trains not intervened, I likely would have disposed of the old Flyer and jumped entirely into HO.  Then, just as I was graduating from college, I bought a copy of Railroad Model Craftsman at a newsstand, my first copy since my subscription expired 7 or 8 years earlier. My wife happened to be looking through it and saw a closeout sale ad for an inexpensive AF set that she ordered for my birthday.  Well, I was hooked again.

While still a desert wasteland compared to other popular gauges, for an old fart like me, at least, the last few decades have been the golden years of S scale.  I was able to live through the truly lean years of the minority gauge by finding the closeout AF stuff I could (barely) afford on a lowly bank clerk's salary, but the proliferation of swap meets, mail order and eBay have since provided a source for old AF (at a price, of course!) as well as the new production items that Gilbert never made.

i agree that S is a tough gauge/scale for one to start into today, especially someone who may want to model more contemporary railroading rather than satisfy a personal legacy and nostalgia for old railroading, old toys and old memories. For over thirty 30 years, I have been without a permanent S gauge home layout; however, I could come close to matching your stock of boxes of modern S products and raise you several more crates and boxes of S gauge Gilbert AF  (Don't get me started on my 3/16 AF S, Pre-war AF, Marx, Lionel, and Atlas O and HO).

My lovely and supportive wife says, "No more 1/64 die-cast vehicles until you build an S gauge layout in your train room.  At least I think that is what she means.  To see what buddy and I have been doing layout-wise over the past 30 years, check out my post in the O Gauge Forum under the "Do you have a layout? Photos?"  thread.  Perhaps there is a modular S gauge group near you.

Best wishes on your new direction and remember it is all good if it is Toy Trains and Model Railroading!

Cheers!

Alan

Peter - you have done a fantastic job with the NASG website, I have used the archived photos to help me hunt for the 20 year old PRS kits to have "modern" ACF hoppers to run behind Legacy ES44s and SD70s. 

While it's true that I likely had more trains than I could fit on a layout at one time, I feel that was in part because so much of it is relatively difficult to come by.  When you see it, you got to grab it.  SHS is gone, PRS long gone, and some of AMs stuff seem likely not to be done again. If I pass by an AM SD60 in a road name I like its possible that I will not see it again, of I would have to spend a significant amount of time looking for one again. It's hard in S to pass up good stuff (over a 10 year span in my case) because I have learned you might not find it again. In my short experience in HO, I can pass on manufacture A's model now of the SD60, cause if I really want one I can find it later, or I can get one from manufacturers B,C,D or E...for ME, I think that curbs my buying significantly.  

The other factor with it is beyond the trains, I don't want to scratch build everything (or really have time to build anything at this point). The prebuilt buildings and infrastructure pieces in most every other scale is fantastic. The ability to get some would land scenics buildings, or Gauge specific equipment (signals, signs, exc...) that don't have to be kit bashed is appealing to me at this point. 

I would not ever advocate for others, especially others happy with S, to leave.  Many have said they are sticking with it, I hope they do.  I WANT S to grow, it's a wonderful size, it just seems the manufacturers are indifferent about it and I'm looking for something a bit more than S  an give me.

Ben

Same line of thinking - different scenario, I have often thought of going from "O" to "G" just because I really LOVE the bigger trains. But, this hobby is funny in that you learn what you like and don't like after you are well in to it. I WAS going to start in "S" but my LHS dealer talked me out of it citing greater availability in the world of "O".... He was right of course. If I lived in a mobile home I suppose I would even be happy in "N". There is a niche for everyone.