According to a story in Trains Mag. Canadian Pacific has come to agreement to sell the D&H. The buyer is not named but rumor has it, it's Norfolk Southern. That would be great news for NS joint ownership of the old B&M Fitchburg line with Pan Am now called the Patriot corridor. As of right now the only way NS gets to New England is via trackage rights on the D&H
Maybe with NS someday taking complete control of the Patriot corridor, we'll see 765 in New England on some employee special
or 611
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Interesting development.
Don
Not clear from the released statement whether the sale relates only to the D&H south of Schenectady or includes the line north of Albany. Easy assumption is that the sale will be to NS but maybe a large shortline conglomerate will join the bidding. Time and STB filings will tell the story.
Poppyl
Just envisioned a new heritage unit!
Too bad the D&H couldn't be sold to create the "new" D&H.
/Mitch
Just envisioned a new heritage unit!
Too bad the D&H couldn't be sold to create the "new" D&H.
/Mitch
I agree!
What about NYS&W?
Just envisioned a new heritage unit!
Too bad the D&H couldn't be sold to create the "new" D&H.
/Mitch
I agree!
What about NYS&W?
NS wouldn't let that happen and CSX wouldn't want it from a competition standpoint.
Poppyl
Good Day,
I painted this up several years ago. D&H Heritage ES44AC..................
Regards,
Swafford
Well, the NS could have a 21st Heritage Loco!
Swafford, you are always ahead of the game.
Line from Sunbury to Binghamton? NS has trackage rights on this line but they have no direct ownership of any track through Scranton, PA. They use RBMN from Old Penn Haven to Dupont for trains from Allentown to Binghamton. At Dupont they use the connector track up to the CP line. NS owns the ex-CNJ line to Allentown south of Lehighton.
And what will the fate be of the Kirkwood Repair facility at the former Lackawanna yard?
And what will the fate be of the Kirkwood Repair facility at the former Lackawanna yard?
That's a good question. As far as I know, NS has some limited repair capabilities at Mechanicville and Gang Mills. Not sure about Bison. Closest major facility now would be Enola so maybe it survives if NS ends up buying the D&H.
Given that traffic levels on the D&H are at least fifty/fifty between NS and CP (and maybe more in favor of NS after CP stopped serving Philly), does NS have a service agreement with CP at Kirkwood?
Poppyl
Guess the D&H does not fit into Hunter Harrison's plans.
Lets say NS does get it. Could this mean a downgrade or loss of recent traffic gained for the NS Buffalo Line? Now that NS would have direct access to the Southern Tier?
Lets say NS does get it. Could this mean a downgrade or loss of recent traffic gained for the NS Buffalo Line? Now that NS would have direct access to the Southern Tier?
Are you confusing the NS Southern Tier line with the Buffalo line? The Tier is broken into two parts -- the western Tier runs between Bison yard in Buffalo and Binghamton where traffic either runs up the D&H to Mechanicville or down to Wilkes Barre and on to either Allentown or Sunbury (where it merges with the Buffalo line south to Harrisburg). The eastern Tier runs from Binghamton to northern NJ on the old Erie main.
I don't see how an NS acquisition of the D&H below Schenectady could impact negatively the existing traffic on the Southern Tier line.
Poppyl
Mike W. is more likely talking about the NS Buffalo line, meaning the Sunbury / Northumberland line heading west through Renovo and Lock Haven. I don't know where the west end of this route goes these days, but it was the Pennsylvania RR line through the middle of the state, originally joining Philadelphia and Buffalo.
Yes I definitely meant the Buffalo Line. Like you described this will polish off Norfolk Southern's already strong routing through Binghamton on to Buffalo...or Mechanicsville.
But in recent years traffic has picked up on the NS Buffalo Line (former PRR) with its working position lights and all. They are running mixed freights and oil trains..and the track is good for speed just like the Southern Tier. So would this purchase move traffic off the Buffalo Line and cause it to be sold to G&W etc. G&W already uses the end into Buffalo after abandoning the former B&O.
BTW speaking of the Eastern Southern Tier...does NS run stuff on this too or is it still in bad shape and only used by Susquehanna? Of course in Metro North/NJT area its in good shape and busy.
Yes I definitely meant the Buffalo Line. Like you described this will polish off Norfolk Southern's already strong routing through Binghamton on to Buffalo...or Mechanicsville.
But in recent years traffic has picked up on the NS Buffalo Line (former PRR) with its working position lights and all. They are running mixed freights and oil trains..and the track is good for speed just like the Southern Tier. So would this purchase move traffic off the Buffalo Line and cause it to be sold to G&W etc. G&W already uses the end into Buffalo after abandoning the former B&O.
BTW speaking of the Eastern Southern Tier...does NS run stuff on this too or is it still in bad shape and only used by Susquehanna? Of course in Metro North/NJT area its in good shape and busy.
Mike;
Oil trains running on the Buffalo line is news to me. As of last month, "scheduled" traffic included a daily Enola-Renovo-Enola run; thrice weekly Buffalo-Renovo-Buffalo; locals from Olean and Northumberland and periodic coal drags from Renovo to Enola. One reason that the traffic isn't heavier on the Buffalo line are the grades, particularly west of Jersey Shore in both directions. Given coal in PA and nat gas/oil in both PA and NY, I don't see NS selling the line to anyone any time soon. But I don't see traffic, other than frac sand, perhaps, growing much on the line, either.
The eastern Tier has gone extensive upgrades over the last several years, including signaling, ROW, and passing siding extensions. I believe that it is currently rated at 40 MPH. One almost has to conclude that based upon the NS investment it must figure somewhere in the NS longer range traffic planning.
Right now it handles a couple of NYS&W dailies and the occasional CSX detour from the River Line. Hardly enough traffic to warrant the investment that NS has made, thus the conclusion that the upgrades must be part of some larger and as yet undisclosed, strategy.
Poppyl
Interesting. I am sure NS has something planned with the Easter Southern Tier. However if one looks at the big picture...all NS freight out of the Northeast can use the Lehigh Lines and Port Road branch...then funnel through the Pittsburgh line. Any Southern Tier traffic would be traffic that needs to hit Buffalo. Otherwise you are just going out of the way to get to the same place...i.e. Cleveland. Maybe there is enough traffic overall for the Pittsburgh line to be jammed and the Southern Tier to be busy as well at some point. All of this could relate to the Panama Canal improvements too.
Oil trains on the Buffalo Line appear to be empties headed West.
I had a similar discussion with a former NS manager last year. His view, which I believe represented management's thinking, is that the Southern Tier functions as an important cog for NS in several areas -- major gateway to and from Toronto and western Ontario into Northern NJ either directly or through Allentown; consistent source of interchange and single customer business (for example, NS interchanges 30 to 50 carloads almost daily with FGLK); well situated to support future oil and gas demand in NY/PA; available for less time sensitive traffic to relieve capacity issues between Pittsburgh and Northern NJ; and well positioned to marry up the growing container capabilites in Northern NJ with the Inland Port designation for Bison in Buffalo.
Those are all good reasons but I tend to follow the money and the hiring as better indicators of management's priorities. I've already mentioned the money. NS is in hiring mode for Binghamton and Bison and rumor has it that they may soon be hiring for Gang Mills. So stay tuned and we'll see how everything shakes out.
Poppyl
Wishful thinking but imagine the NS putting back the Penn Division north of Carbondale?
That is pending approval of the powers that be. According to the article in the local paper, the D&H line wasn't profitable enough for CP.
Don
Well now, Hunter can just take his anti steam attitude with him and leave PA! Now NS can partner with Steamtown in the future for steam excursions to Sunbury and Binghamton! Or, maybe the 765 or 611 can make a visit. So does this mean NS will also own to Albany, NY and beyond? Because the rails CP owned essentially went from Sunbury, PA to Montreal, QC via Scranton, Binghamton, and Albany. But does this mean the end of the CP Holiday Train visiting Steamtown?
Well now, Hunter can just take his anti steam attitude with him and leave PA! Now NS can partner with Steamtown in the future for steam excursions to Sunbury and Binghamton! Or, maybe the 765 or 611 can make a visit. So does this mean NS will also own to Albany, NY and beyond? Because the rails CP owned essentially went from Sunbury, PA to Montreal, QC via Scranton, Binghamton, and Albany. But does this mean the end of the CP Holiday Train visiting Steamtown?
I'll take 765 over that lame-o holiday train ANY DAY. NS is friendlier than CP anyway.
Just to elaborate a little on Curt's post, NS will still need/have trackage rights on CP from the junction to Mechanicville. The acquisition is seen as a key part of the Crescent Corridor initiative. With it, looks like that NS will be able to compete very well with CSX for Gulf Coast/East Coast north/south traffic.
Poppyl
Good Day,
Do you have the web link to the NS STB application?
Regards,
Frank
STB filing (307 page PDF file)
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