Did the Eastern Division change York soon enough?

MartyE posted:

I notice a lot of the rants above are all about product, pricing, and whether I filled the back of the SUV. If that's all I was looking to do I'd stay home. I saw a lot of friend, new and old.  I had a fun Legacy meeting where I met a newbie named Timmy. I saw Eddie G who didn't make it in the spring looking happy as ever. 

If York is all about the train buying I suspect you have something to whine about. If you're like me you probably had a great time and didn't obsess on counting people , product, and pricing. And you were probably happy your SUV got great mileage home without the weight of trains. 

Yhanks EDTCA!  As long as you have a meet and I'm able to attend I'm there. 

Well stated MARTY!!!  I enjoyed the meet as well on THURSDAY by myself and saw friends that night, then had an enjoyable day with my WIFE there on Friday.

Geez what a bunch of whiners. I was at York on both Thursday and Friday and it was more crowded then the past 6 or 7 years. The aisles in the orange hall were the same also. 

Change comes and with it the train shows will change. I'm looking forward to April to see freinds and talk and buy trains. 

The dealers I talked to had a great show and I hope it continues. Letting the public in is a start so let's support the EDTCA as they move into a new direction. 

Btw this was my 62nd straight York. 

Dave

MartyE posted:

I notice a lot of the rants above are all about product, pricing, and whether I filled the back of the SUV. If that's all I was looking to do I'd stay home. I saw a lot of friend, new and old.  I had a fun Legacy meeting where I met a newbie named Timmy. I saw Eddie G who didn't make it in the spring looking happy as ever. 

If York is all about the train buying I suspect you have something to whine about. If you're like me you probably had a great time and didn't obsess on counting people , product, and pricing. And you were probably happy your SUV got great mileage home without the weight of trains. 

Yhanks EDTCA!  As long as you have a meet and I'm able to attend I'm there. 

Pretty much sums up my feelings as well.  Seeing friends again is the major attraction.  Although, if you like going to train shows just to see table after table of the same tired schlock, Allentown is for you.  York (even in April) is about 100X better.

George

Just my perspective  but when we open the York meet to the public why limit the non TCA members to only dealer halls. For those members that make the trek to sell i'm sure they would appreciate the extra traffic. I doubt it that any member selling would really concern themselves much over who the buyer is so long as the the cash is there .

L.I.TRAIN posted:

Just my perspective  but when we open the York meet to the public why limit the non TCA members to only dealer halls. For those members that make the trek to sell i'm sure they would appreciate the extra traffic. I doubt it that any member selling would really concern themselves much over who the buyer is so long as the the cash is there .

Because of the tax rule. Members currently do not collect tax. Allowing the public in the member halls will require them to collect sales tax. I also suspect the members would disagree with you. Most of them want it a completely closed meet. 

There are a lot of great points here, however, let me tell you right coast collectors/operators how lucky you all are to have such a great event, even if it is a 2-3 hour drive.

The closest thing we have here on the left coast is the Cal-Stewart. Even though it is no York, we still face a lot of the similar issues. The increase of costs to put on the event, with the decline of sellers. The Northern California event used to be held in one huge area by opening adjacent  conference rooms, and the last event was at a smaller hotel, with one little room.

However, with that being said, the wife and I still go to the meet and make a day of it with friends. We have gone even with the intentions of not buying anything. It gives us a chance to meet up with old friends, and look at items we all enjoy looking supporting  the hobby,and we all go lunch, and discuss what we bought or saw.

Heck, even the last show that we went to, I ended up with an MTH Premier Blue Comet Engine w/ PS1 for $100 NIB. This is what happens when you are not looking for anything. Got a great engine, spent the day with my wife, had fun, and supported our favorite hobby.

Even if there is a decline in sellers and buyers at York, I would hope it never goes away. One of my dream trips is to make the trip to York, meet as many of you as I can, meet some of the dealers I have done business with over the years, and look at some great trains!

JoeG

C W Burfle posted:

While it may impact the health of the TCA and the show itself, changing the Eastern Division's York train show is not going to have any impact on the future of toy train collecting / operating.
 ...

Exactly...  When a similar thread about York's proposed changes was created months ago, I stated the same thing... namely, "When did it become York's mission statement to save the hobby?"  Rather York will be what it will be.

Think of a diagram with "toy train swap meet" on one side, and "industry trade show" on the other side.  Then imagine a pendulum swinging back and forth.  York started with the pendulum all the way on "swap meet", and over the years the pendulum has moved along the diagram -- but never quite completely -- to "trade show".  It's become a blend of both, and that's fine.  Everybody wins.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the pendulum will move back to "swap meet" territory long before York dies.  Toy train enthusiasts will always want to get together, because the social element is very compelling.  Accomodating public attendance is largely a move to help dealers defray costs of attending.  The worst that could happen is dealers won't see the expected surge in sales they're hoping for, and York will return to purely a swap meet environment as dealers begin dropping out.  None of these things happen overnight though.

For gosh sakes, people... Nobody here is whining or ranting about anything.   Give it a break, please.  We're simply making some observations about the look-and-feel of York as we knew it and experienced it -- some of us for the past few decades -- and how it's changed.  

We're all at different places on our journey in this hobby.  So rather than criticize folks for asking questions and commenting, just sit back and enjoy the ride and where you happen to be on the journey.

David

G3750 posted:

...  if you like going to train shows just to see table after table of the same tired schlock, Allentown is for you.  York (even in April) is about 100X better.

...

George, with all due respects, you forgot to say, "in my opinion".    Two different shows.  Allentown hold its own any day... any time.  I've been attending Allentown long before I was a TCA member and started attending York.  There are no signs of Allentown going by the wayside.

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

George, with all due respects, you forgot to say, "in my opinion".    Two different shows.  Allentown hold its own any day... any time.  I've been attending Allentown long before I was a TCA member and started attending York.  There are no signs of Allentown going by the wayside.

David

You forgot to say "in my opinion". 

dk122trains posted:

York will evolve just as the hobby has the past 30 years.  I will go and support it. It is more than a show, it is and has been an event for years. The top 10 percent spend the most money at York , all the big boys better bring more creative layouts to the show if they are trying to lure the public into the hobby,remember the wow of the showroom layouts, what is there now is terrible. Even OGR and its Ameritowne line could create a display that triggers the imagine to build an affordable home layout, not just piles of building kits in a booth. These examples of displays can show the public the apps and at the same time encourage growth of the hobby. The orange hall will need a combination of dealers and layouts to lure and repeat foot traffic on the public days of York. Let it be said,I love York!

I said the exact same thing to the Lionel guys on Friday. They should definitely bring back the great layout that they were bringing to York up until a couple of years ago. They said the new set up allows them to demonstrate features better, but nothing sells toy trains like a neat layout. The Lionel Corporation knew this back in their heyday, not only with the showroom layouts, but with the thousands of Dealer Display Layouts that we used to see in department stores, hobby shops, sporting goods stores; I even remember one in an auto parts store.

If the goal is to bring people into this hobby by opening it up to the general public, then bring in the fancy layouts and let the imaginations do the selling. 

MartyE posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

George, with all due respects, you forgot to say, "in my opinion".    Two different shows.  Allentown hold its own any day... any time.  I've been attending Allentown long before I was a TCA member and started attending York.  There are no signs of Allentown going by the wayside.

David

You forgot to say "in my opinion". 

Two points:

1) Is there any other?  LOL.  OK, in my opinion.

2) I wasn't predicting the demise or the eclipse of the Allentown meets.  If they float your boat, super.  I was commenting on what I've seen there.

George

Looking at this whole situation with a Detective view.  I only hope the wrong people do not figure out lots of cash is walking about and no MEMBER becomes a victim of an assault or armed robbery.  I have always felt very safe being surrounded by other members with names in the badge holder.  

I feel this public thing  is unfair to dealers.  They may see more plastic than cash.  Good luck with that.  I know if we have unknown persons wandering about our vehicles, no more taking the Corvette to York if I decide to go again.  

Nobody cares about my thoughts but being a Police Officer for 37.5 years, I have seen things and this is not a good thing to let unknowns wander among our members.   Yes, most will be great people.  Any street guy/junkie  worth his salt can score big at York with all the cash walking about.  

NYC Fan posted:

... If the goal is to bring people into this hobby by opening it up to the general public, then bring in the fancy layouts and let the imaginations do the selling. 

Very well stated.  Excellent point.

It was only a few years ago (or so it seems) that MTH, Lionel and Atlas-O had some wonderful layouts that inspired visitors.  The current display layouts are a mere shadow of their predecessors, and I'm sure cost is a huge factor in the equation.  Hopefully that will change if they expect to draw a new audience and capture the general public's interest.

David

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Looking at this whole situation with a Detective view.  I only hope the wrong people do not figure out lots of cash is walking about and no MEMBER becomes a victim of an assault or armed robbery.  I have always felt very safe being surrounded by other members with names in the badge holder.  

I feel this public thing  is unfair to dealers.  They may see more plastic than cash.  Good luck with that.  I know if we have unknown persons wandering about our vehicles, no more taking the Corvette to York if I decide to go again.  

Nobody cares about my thoughts but being a Police Officer for 37.5 years, I have seen things and this is not a good thing to let unknowns wander among our members.   Yes, most will be great people.  Any street guy/junkie  worth his salt can score big at York with all the cash walking about.  

 

FYI Marty, it was pointed out at the Saturday business meeting which I would wager no one who has posted on this thread attended, that the Fairgrounds have always been open to the public. Only the buildings are closed. Admission will be $14 for one day (family of 1-?) or $20 for two days. I suspect its unlikely anyone will pay to get into the hall so they can stick someone up and outside its the same as it ever was.

BTW the Black Hall has always been open to the public believe it or don't but since no trading happens there anyone from the street can walk in and enjoy the layouts. This point was news for most everyone.

Pete

Norton posted:

FYI Marty, it was pointed out at the Saturday business meeting which I would wager no one who has posted on this thread attended, that the Fairgrounds have always been open to the public. Only the buildings are closed. ................

Same thought occurred to me when reading Marty's post.  While I'm sure security would respond if something is reported, I would guess any perpetrators would be long gone if someone was robbed closer to their car than the buildings.

-Dave

FYI Marty, it was pointed out at the Saturday business meeting which I would wager no one who has posted on this thread attended, that the Fairgrounds have always been open to the public.

Here is the difference: presumably the show will be advertised, drawing attention to itself, which raises the potential for a miscreant to be aware of it, and show up.

Honestly though, I don't think I'd worry about this too much. I'd be more concerned with those unfamiliar with the hobby poking and touching things they should not.

I wonder how members feel about the public admission being less than members pay?

Has anyone ever been held up at the Big E show?  I don't think crime is a big factor at that show and I don't think it will be at York. And wouldn't train guy have the most money in their pockets on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday at the bandit meets with free admission?

C W Burfle posted:

..................................
Honestly though, I don't think I'd worry about this too much. I'd be more concerned with those unfamiliar with the hobby poking and touching things they should not..................................

That could be an issue, possibly. 

I recall at a very small local (well, Delaware, so 1 hour "local" drive for me) meet in the late 90's there was a seller with some older (probably PW, but could have been pre) items with boxes. 

He had some sort of item in a box where the item could be shown by leaving the top flap opened while the item still was in the box.

I saw the interaction when some person casually grabbed the end flap of the box and pulled it toward them to get a better look at the item (thereby putting the stress of pulling the item's weight on the end flap seam).  The person had no clue that the box on such an item added to the value, just that it was an old beat up box. 

I don't think it actually got torn off, but he very politely informed her how that was not an appropriate way to grab something on the table.

-Dave

I'm part of the senior crowd (72 yrs old) and live just 45 min from York.  Anything I'd ever buy a York I can buy on the net and don't have to navigate my way through the crowds.  But that's just me.  For those who enjoy the York experience I hope it never ends for you.

My wife and I attended York and had a delightful time. We saw minimal or no decline in the number of attendees. Yes, there were some empty tables, even in the Orange Hall.

My background is marketing and to be honest, those selling at York could sure use some assistance in this area. Some sellers had lots of their people standing around talking to each other not even looking at their customers. If you are going to bring people, someone needs to understand that the purpose is SALES, MEETING PEOPLE, and TALKING THINGS UP. I asked the owner of one well known business if I could have five minutes of his time. You would have thought that I was asking to date his daughter.

I embarrassed him into talking to me. Come to find out, I was a customer who wanted to spend $10,000+ with him, had been recommended by a supplier, and yes, I needed to discuss it.

Some displays were exciting, looked new, had interesting product... and these dealers appeared to be doing quite well. Others had no spark, little interest, and were obviously simply there. They are undoubtedly complaining and wondering why they spent so much time and money for so little in the way of results.

In the customer sales arena today, those who excel do so because they are energetic, engaged, understand customer service, know their product, and enjoy meeting their customers... and making new ones. They offer something extra and go beyond what is expected routinely. They stand above their competition. If a business cannot do these things, that business is destined to fail.

I read the excuses and I saw what many dealers in all halls were doing. Many if not most were working hard to avoid their customers.

One example of on the ball is Liz Nelson, Mrs Muffin as some call her. She was in the Korber booth and was obviously rather new at it as might be expected since she and Steve had just announced the purchase October 16. But she was helpful, interested, and took the time to answer questions and assist us with a need that we had. She and Steve understand sales. They will get a lot more of our business and we will stop at their new store next summer when we go to Michigan.

We plan to return to York in April. It is a time of fellowship, seeing people that we usually only see twice a year, and of checking out what is new. And we do not always buy when we are in York. We have a list of calls and e-mails to make about things that we saw. For a well run business, there is good money to be made at York... but you have to work for it,  you have to work smart, and you have to be interested in your potential customer.

I believe that the desire for change is driven by the success of the WGHOT show. Its a public show and none of the problems sighted in this thread have surfaced. It draws TWICE the attendance of York in two days. With double the audience, dealers might be given the opportunity to make more money even if it only results in 10% more sales. The days of a club requirement to attend any  show are over. Look at the giant cars shows at Macungie (AACA) Carlisle and Hershey ( AACA). Look at the huge gun shows at the Pennsylvania Expo center.  They let the public in because its more affordable that way and good a good business practice. If you don't do everything to keep the retail dealers profitable York will fall apart. The status quo can't continue to do it forever. Time is not on the ED side and IMO a one day public event at York in one or two halls won't do much for sales but it might have an effect. As I've said before; revenue determines it all.

Look at the giant cars shows at Macungie (AACA) Carlisle and Hershey ( AACA).

When was a membership required to attend Carlisle or Hershey?

I still believe in the TCA membership.  While York may still have to evolve if it wants to remain as it is, perhaps they'll find the EDTCA membership would rather go back to simpler meet with members only and have the dealers go away.  It may not be a big event but I'm pretty sure they never envisioned what it turned into any ways.

Bottom line is you can be part of the problem or part of the solution.  Work towards making it better.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Scrapiron Scher posted:

This York was an eye opener for me. It seemed like attendance was down quite a bit, but the changes don't stop there. The Brown Hall is gone, the Purple Hall is an empty shell of what it used to be. Dealers in the Orange Hall seemed to have much less new product. There was considerably less new or fairly new high end product in the member halls.

What's going on?

1) The economy has peaked and, with that, we have manufacturer caution, dealer wariness and maxed out train buyers.

2) Many members are reaching the age where making the trek to York may no longer be easy enough.

3) Hobby shops/small dealers are going out of business in greater numbers.

4) The Internet has made it so much easier to get the items that buyers want, the appeal of York is diminished as it has been for many of the other train meets.

5) The cornucopia of new product has finally reached gargantuan size. How much more can the market consume without an enormous stomach ache?

...

Elliot, you had a first-hand look at what I've been saying for a few years now.  Each and every month here on the forum, we see sales from forum sponsors that often offer product at less-than-preorder prices.  Bottom line... we don't NEED York for our train-buying extravaganzas.  They're right here:  both as new products from dealers, as well as Mint, Like-New, and excellent-condition products from forum members.   

Newly catalog'd products from many of the major importers represent huge "opportunities" to spend big money on big-ticket purchases everywhere we look nowadays... look north and you'll spend $1K on that small steam locomotive... look east and there goes another $2K on an articulated steamer... look south and you thought you'd spend $250 on some rolling stock but wound up buying 4X your original plan for another $1K out the door... look west and you've just spent another $2K on an ABBA configuration of locomotives!    It's just crazy!!! 

Between purchase and pre-orders, even folks who attend York are already maxed out.  So they proceed cautiously at York... or worse yet, decide not to even make the trip. 

We can't fight the laws of physics:  many of us have been adults in this hobby since the 1980's... some even longer.  That's a good 4+ decades, most of which have seen toy train offerings explode almost endlessly since the days Lionel closed its factory doors in Hillside, NJ.

I attended York for 5 hours on Thursday... the first hour was to take care of deliveries from my recent for-sale thread on the forum.  The 4 hours I spent at the show were primarily in the Orange Hall -- stopping by at booths of the key O-Gauge importers, a few dealers, plus one well-known layout builder with a studio in the Adirondacks.    Then a quick jaunt over to the Purple Hall - which turned out to be a waste of time (for me, anyway) other than to add to the 8,000+ steps I walked that day. 

By 4PM, I was back on the road.   And the back of my SUV had two small boxes in it:  2 new MTH/LCT Standard Gauge #4010 tankers from SideTrack Hobbies, which I could have purchased ANYTIME for a good price.  Nothing particularly special about buying them at York -- aside from the fact they were my token purchases for this trip.

Aside from my need to get home for a business commitment on Friday, I can't help but wonder how representative I am of MANY folks in the hobby.  And when I saw TONS of what I'd call "just regular, good ole rolling stock and locomotives (mostly new old stock)" at many dealer booths in the Orange Hall, my eyes just glazed over... thinking, "Who's gonna buy all this stuff???"    Yes, I admit I was moving rather quickly through the hall -- due to my limited time at the show this year.  But even at that, I concluded I've reached a new stage in this hobby.  I still LOVE it like there's no tomorrow.  But it's an entirely different ballgame these days.  Can't put a better handle on it than that, but something has definitely changed... and continues to change in that direction.

I'm sure York will be around for years to come.  But exactly what it will look like is anyone's guess.

OK... now who's going to Allentown???  Chuck, it's time to plan breakfast at the Hamilton Family Diner... only two weeks away!!!    Count me in!!! 

David

 Allentown - you bet! Try to never miss it! 

I would say people who go to the train show just might carry a bit more cash than patrons that go to  some shows that use the Fair Grounds.  Time will tell.  Good luck everyone.  Hershey is a place that I feel secure.  

Dennis LaGrua posted:

I believe that the desire for change is driven by the success of the WGHOT show. Its a public show and none of the problems sighted in this thread have surfaced. It draws TWICE the attendance of York in two days. With double the audience, dealers might be given the opportunity to make more money even if it only results in 10% more sales.

Would you please explain what was being sold at the WGH show? I spent both full days at the Philadelphia one, and saw very few dealers selling things that were not related to Thomas the Tank Engine.

The main reason so many show up is TV, radio, newspaper, and billboards advertising it.

Would you please explain what was being sold at the WGH show? I spent both full days at the Philadelphia one, and saw very few dealers selling things that were not related to Thomas the Tank Engine.

The main reason so many show up is TV, radio, newspaper, and billboards advertising it.

The one I went to drew over 20,000 for 2 days with plenty of kids. Very little for sale and more like a quality day out with the kids.

"Hershey is a place that I feel secure" Sorry, I don't get it.

MartyE posted:

... While York may still have to evolve if it wants to remain as it is, perhaps they'll find the EDTCA membership would rather go back to simpler meet with members only and have the dealers go away.  It may not be a big event but I'm pretty sure they never envisioned what it turned into any ways.

...

So this really begs the question, "What is truly driving the EDTCA to open the meet to the general public?".  I ask this basic question, because there needs to be a clear metric by which the succss (or failure) of opening the show to the public for a few seasons can be measured:

• Is it MTH, Lionel and Atlas-O (i.e., the big importers) hoping to increase foot-traffic so more youth and families in general are exposed to the hobby?

• Or is it dealers (large and small) who want to increase sales to make the trip to York more manageable from an ROI perspective?

• Or is the TCA hoping to bolster attendance, with hopes of drawing more folks into the TCA?

The first driver is probably the most subjective in terms of having a clear metric by which to measure.  Sure... attendance figures are easy to monitor, but will the increased attendance actually mean anything of significance?  In other words... OK, a lot of people attended... now what?  Are they buyers?  Will they return again?  Will they join the hobby?  All good questions, but is it York's mission statement to grow the hobby like this?

The second driver is likely the most objective with respect to measuring success or failure... namely, did vendors and dealers see a noticeable increase in sales/profits for their trip?  And will they need to bring different types of product to garner interest among the general public vs. long-time TCA members?  For example, does a dealer like Charlie Ro or Nicholas Smith need to bring a bunch of starter sets and layout expansion sets that are added to their booth on days the public will attend?  'Cause I can say without a doubt that John Q. Public ain't gonna walk out with locomotives priced north of $500 or rolling stock pieces priced at $60+ each.  Presumably, the dealers will want to exploit the increased opportunity to sell to a new audience, but there may be hidden costs to doing this too.  Just sayin.. It's something dealers of all sizes need to plan for.

And lastly, the third driver listed above is relatively easy to measure, (i.e., attendance numbers).  But it admittedly has some subjectivity to it in terms of qualifying attendees as actual buyers to any degree of significance.  And this does get back to the original conundrum... Namely, if attendance figures go up but dealers don't generate more sales/profit, is that still a success?

Look... I don't have any silver bullet answers.  I just hope the EDTCA doesn't try to turn York into an event that is all things to all people, 'cause that's only asking for trouble.  It's really OK if York maintains a character all to its own, and does just that very, very well. Right?

David

Here we go again debating if EDTCA is trying a change at York. They need to try something new. Geez.... Huge meet twice a year. A lot of prep work and execution to make the meet go smoothly. Stop the whining. 

I go to York to see the trains, maybe buy something and oh yeah... see all my friends from around the country. And get to talk to 2 of my AFC East football rivals about the game.

I ENJOY YORK TWICE A YEAR. 

eddie g posted:

"Hershey is a place that I feel secure" Sorry, I don't get it.

He's addicted to chocolate. 

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

Eddie, Carlisle/Hershey is the site of a huge car/parts swap meet.  Many times it would be the same time as York.  I have split my time with the car show and York.  It is a very cool place to be at.

Mikey, we have many west coast friends that go to York.  Your thoughts have been thrown about by others.  I think we all need to watch how it goes and figure from that point.  I figure this subject will be around until the spring York.  I only go to York to hang with some great people from other parts of the country.  

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

You buy everything sight unseen? Pictures tend to lie.

Kudos to EDTCA for all the hard work the do putting York together twice a year. Kudos to EDTCA for attempting to change and keep up with the changing  times.

What can we do? Be positive and promote the meet, and with that, promote the hobby.

What can the major manufacturers do? By opening this meet to the public, give them a reason to come, and return. The current displays will not do it........they need to be stepped up....

Peter

mikey posted:

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

Living on the West Coast, the $50 membership is the least of your costs to attend York.  Maybe that wasn't your point, it's hard to tell with those 3 different aspects you listed with no further clarification. 

The airfare car and lodging has always been a component for West Coast visitors, public allowed or not.  Also, the buying of things on the net has been an option for quite a while now.

While I've not attended the OGR Forum meeting in a while, we have had visitors from both Australia (a member of this forum) and also China over the years.

mikey posted:

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

I live on the east coast with the majority of the O Gauge community, free dues and admission to York (thank you Nationwide and TCA) I drive, and can spend a night at a decent hotel for $100.  I don't see it ending any time soon.

... While York may still have to evolve if it wants to remain as it is, perhaps they'll find the EDTCA membership would rather go back to simpler meet with members only and have the dealers go away.  It may not be a big event but I'm pretty sure they never envisioned what it turned into any ways.

I've always been a proponent of the "to each their own" / "It's a big tent" school of thought. Having a large dealer presence at York never bothered me.

It would be fine to see the show shift back to how it was in the 1980's, when there were a small number of dealers,  and the focus was on member to member transactions.
And if the show went back to two days, perhaps some of the table holders that were lost by adding Thursday would come back.

If the Eastern Division has to raise prices to make the show break even, then so be it. The ice cream social sounds nice, but if the show is loosing money, how can the E.D. afford to host it?

I read the original post and I think the diagnosis is incorrect and the remedy is worse.  It's not York that is thinning the halls.  It is the abysmal quality and price of the product.  Also the demographic is rapidly changing.  How may 20 year olds have emotional attachment to Lionel anymore?

Quality is subpar as we all know.  There are deniers out there but the again some have a vested interest in promoting a fantasy that all is well.  Price...Horrible!!  As I stared at the new items at York by the dealers all I could think is for the same price I could have a new handgun, rifle, computer, several flat screens, a vacation, new appliance, fishing rod ect. and still have money left over.  And then...let's ask ourselves how many times it will have to be sent back to be repaired or made right.  Price is high compared to other items (in my case handguns and assault rifles), quality is horrible (NEVER had to send a firearm back, not once), and demographic is terminal.

Wrong diagnosis, wrong medicine....you can open it up to the public all you want.  It is declining due to price, quality and demographic.  Period.  

mikey posted:

I live on the West Coast so if the show is open to the public why should I pay $50 national dues York admission and airfare,lodging and car rental when I can buy the items on the net,I think that the end is in sight.

Mikey

Why go to Disney World when you can watch a video of it?

Why visit friends when you can text them?