PRR H10
PRR Atlantic
Vision Niagara
Is the absence of the machining process to smooth out these mold markings for a smooth finish simply a factory oversight?
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That's unacceptable!
Boy, they look like some cheap low end models. 
The Niagara looks almost intentional even though I can't imagine why. The others are quite excessive for high end models. I notice the rivet detail on the smoke box also stops before the parting line. I don't generally deal in the high end of the hobby but this would certainly be a serious problem if I did. Are the H-10 and Atlantic examples seen here a worst case type of thing or indicative of the entire production run?
Wow, that's pretty bad. 
Just for laughs, I took out my 1999 TMCC E6 and 2000 TMCC H class; both made in Korea.
You can see where the parting lines were, but I'd say about 99% of the flash was removed.
H class Consol (top); E6 class (bottom)
There may be the slightest traces of the parting lines, but I think for the most part, they look as they should...the examples in the OP's post look terrible. Heck, even N scale engines don't have that! 
Mark in Oregon
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JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:
PRR H10
PRR Atlantic
Wow! Those are BAD!
Is the PRR Atlantic a high end model ? If so, I agree it is unacceptable. We've come a long way since the post-war die cast models, haven't we ? Back then, your model would have been considered state of the art.
Lionel really needs to get it together...
Dan Padova posted:Is the PRR Atlantic a high end model ? If so, I agree it is unacceptable. We've come a long way since the post-war die cast models, haven't we ? Back then, your model would have been considered state of the art.
Indeed we have. But here is the top of the boiler of my American Flyer S gauge #300; according to what I've found online, this version is from 1946-1947:
Sure, it may be considered "crude" by today's standards, yet there's little (if any) signs of molding lines. Again, in the OP's photos, no attempt was made to remove those. 
Mark in Oregon
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Do all of the H10s look that bad? That's crazy bad in the first two images.
It looks like the original CCII niagara has the same flaw. Given that Lionel has shown they do not deviate from the original tooling, I guess the line on the VL model is to be somewhat expected, not unlike the phillips head drive rod screws:
However, heres the TMCC version of the H10 (9), looks great.:
Regardless, It "appears" Lionel is drifting away from accurate scale models and aiming more towards "toy" trains, even if they cost $2000.( Oh how my TMCC L2A mohawk is a gem when it comes to detail and build quality.)
The new H10 lacks window glass ( that should have been added since the TMCC version missed it as well) and the gold painted ( as opposed to brass) whistle, bell ,and popoffs, screams "Toy".
When MR left, the polished boilers went with him. I just looked at my NYC heavy mikado that was made while "big Mike" was still there and the boiler looks fabulous in comparison.
Having said that, the Vision Line hudson had numerous detail errors and omissions, no one cared. They still get close to the original $1400 street price on the secondary market.
Randy_B posted:Do all of the H10s look that bad? That's crazy bad in the first two images.
Looks like the extra step to machine off those nasty part lines was a trade off to get the swinging bell.
joe
Having once owned a spin casting system I can say keeping mold lines to a minimum is a fine art. At first glance at the photos above I see the the mold line is not uneven and seems to be consistent in size, now depending on what the customer demands delegates the price, if it is not an issue depending on its use then the price charged is much less then a part which has no visible mold separation line, the cost of cleaning it up can be pricey.
I had the pleasure of been given a tour of the Samhongsa model company, I was not there not for train business but models of ships. They do mostly brass trains however they also build from casting done elsewhere where they are brought to Samhongsa for assembly. When I was taken to the clean up area, there I was very impressed by the work of the young ladies working there, especially the removal of flash and mold lines from the product, their tools were the same as the ones I used, they used Dremel types for removing the large flash and then given to other workers using files and sandpaper to do the close work and even others who were very good at removing all signs of the mold line and metal imperfections like dings or dents. There must of been at least a dozen ladies there doing these chores. So it does take time and money to get the look you want. No free lunch anymore, even in Asia.
It is all about money, how much does the importer want to pay?
Valid points John, but still...
Like a lot of us here (I bet), I "cut my teeth" in this hobby by building die cast steam locos in HO: Bowser, Mantua, etc. Cleaning up the boiler casting was the first thing you did, after you got the mechanism running properly; and some of those needed a LOT of cleaning!
I would have thought that mold lines were a thing of the past in a ready to run model...especially to that degree.
It just looks like another example of half a** construction at a premium price...you know, like poor solder joints, paint jobs, etc.
One should expect products from one of the major players to be better than what we could do ourselves; otherwise, what's the point?
Mark in Oregon
Oh man a sad state of affairs. Years back my wife worked in different molding factories. I remember her main tool was a file. I showed her the pictures and she said that is what a file is for. Said that is just lazy not cleaning up the flash. Lionel wake up.
Gweedo posted:Oh man a sad state of affairs. Years back my wife worked in different molding factories. I remember her main tool was a file. I showed her the pictures and she said that is what a file is for. Said that is just lazy not cleaning up the flash. Lionel wake up.
Maybe a file will be included in all future releases...along with the "RA" form... 
Mark in Oregon
John Pignatelli JR. posted:Having once owned a spin casting system I can say keeping mold lines to a minimum is a fine art. At first glance at the photos above I see the the mold line is not uneven and seems to be consistent in size, now depending on what the customer demands delegates the price, if it is not an issue depending on its use then the price charged is much less then a part which has no visible mold separation line, the cost of cleaning it up can be pricey.
I had the pleasure of been given a tour of the Samhongsa model company, I was not there not for train business but models of ships. They do mostly brass trains however they also build from casting done elsewhere where they are brought to Samhongsa for assembly. When I was taken to the clean up area, there I was very impressed by the work of the young ladies working there, especially the removal of flash and mold lines from the product, their tools were the same as the ones I used, they used Dremel types for removing the large flash and then given to other workers using files and sandpaper to do the close work and even others who were very good at removing all signs of the mold line and metal imperfections like dings or dents. There must of been at least a dozen ladies there doing these chores. So it does take time and money to get the look you want. No free lunch anymore, even in Asia.
It is all about money, how much does the importer want to pay?
Guess Lionel has become the "do it cheap as possible" business model, BUT they will continue to extract the highest prices from those dumb enough to bite. It is ashame Lionel is on a downhill slide. I am saddened by this. However, thank God we still have MTH - every aspect considered - on average - better all around products etc. Also, remember: Mike Wolf is a "train guy" & a businessman" - them there folks now at Lionel (now that MR has departed) are $ & cents guys trying hard, but letting the name slip downward fast.
You guys all bent about casting lines when you're getting copious smoke, swinging bells, and whistle steam. Some folks are never satisfied. /s
I recently returned a $325 HO Model that had casting lines on the boiler, the retailer took it back in a heartbeat when I showed him pictures as he also found them totally unacceptable.
brex desilets posted:You guys all bent about casting lines when you're getting copious smoke, swinging bells, and whistle steam. Some folks are never satisfied. /s
I reject the notion that in order to have "copious smoke,swinging bell and whistle steam", the basic finish must therefore be sacrificed.
Mark in Oregon
Maybe Lionel can file the flash off for another $100 as an Option,so sad to see the extortion style pricing because of the Big L logo.I will not Buy any BTO items,the money is too hard to come by.
Mikey
rex desilets posted:You guys all bent about casting lines when you're getting copious smoke, swinging bells, and whistle steam. Some folks are never satisfied. /s
I kind of agree with that except none of this stuff is cheap and the part lines on the H10 is particularly bad where visible part lines go from boiler front through the sand dome to the cab. Unacceptable today at any price!!!
I suppose if you require machine clean boilers, MTH is your brand with castings clean as a whistle, almost perfect. Funny thing, over the holidays I dusted off my 20 year old JLC Challenger and ran it for the first time in over a decade or more.. Smoke took time to appear but it ran perfect. Those Korean engines with TMCC are bullet proof. Yesterday, I noticed it too had visible part lines...
Joe
Let's face a simple fact. Chinese production as Lionel employs it doesn't hold a candle to previous production in South Korea. Samhongsa products were almost flawless. Castings were better and so was the paint quality.
The mold line is totally unacceptable, even if we were talking about an entry level loco.
I will continue to stay out of the Lionel pool, until quality improves.
I looked at about 25 of my steam locomotives made during the past 20 years by MTH, Atlas O, K-Line, Weaver, and one by Lionel. No casting lines that I can see on any of them.
MELGAR
After reading this I looked at my prewar 226E and found a beautiful finish and no parting lines. My new Niagra and H10 don’t match up well at all.
RickO posted:...Regardless, It "appears" Lionel is drifting away from accurate scale models and aiming more towards "toy" trains, even if they cost $2000.( Oh how my TMCC L2A mohawk is a gem when it comes to detail and build quality.)
The new H10 lacks window glass ( that should have been added since the TMCC version missed it as well) and the gold painted ( as opposed to brass) whistle, bell ,and popoffs, screams "Toy".
When MR left, the polished boilers went with him. I just looked at my NYC heavy mikado that was made while "big Mike" was still there and the boiler looks fabulous in comparison.
Having said that, the Vision Line hudson had numerous detail errors and omissions, no one cared. They still get close to the original $1400 street price on the secondary market.
First, it's probably safe to say that model railroaders can be a fussy group. The irony or tragedy might be that Big L's Howard Hitchcock stated (IIRC from his Notch6 interview a while back) that Lionel was moving more towards becoming a "Boutique" type company: offering highly detailed, high quality features and higher priced products. At the time, I took this to mean that Lionel was looking to act more in direct competition with Sunset/3rd Rail's products while still maintaining their basic starter sets and likely profitable marketing brand. Lionel went on to promote and create their BTO and Lost Wax Casting products. However, the numerous poor quality issues that came to market in the last 2 years on higher end and priced products and L's arguably disorganized reaction/approach to these serious problems certainly should prove less a competitive threat to Sunset/3rd Rail's niche product line.
I think I stated in other threads that IMHO felt that Lionel and it's staff are likely operating within the restrictive financial and operational limits or constraints that it's outside ownership group rigidly enforces. However, I hope Mr. Hitchcock, as the current President of this iconic American company comes to acknowledge and appreciate many of the valid concerns and criticisms that customers have brought forward about their recent troubled Lionel product purchases and that through his stewardship makes a dedicated, thorough and highly public effort to correct these recurring faults. Overseas production arguably has been the stated competitive requirement by many within the industry; but quality varies greatly. Mr. H. please don't let your "Lionel Legacy" be known as the one who turned out the lights.
Strummer posted:brex desilets posted:You guys all bent about casting lines when you're getting copious smoke, swinging bells, and whistle steam. Some folks are never satisfied. /s
I reject the notion that in order to have "copious smoke,swinging bell and whistle steam", the basic finish must therefore be sacrificed.
Mark in Oregon
Meant as sarcasm
If youre going to use sarcasm here you need to make sure the SARCASM lock is on
rex desilets posted:Strummer posted:brex desilets posted:You guys all bent about casting lines when you're getting copious smoke, swinging bells, and whistle steam. Some folks are never satisfied. /s
I reject the notion that in order to have "copious smoke,swinging bell and whistle steam", the basic finish must therefore be sacrificed.
Mark in Oregon
Meant as sarcasm
Fair enough; although I wasn't the only one who took it for serious...
Mark in Oregon
rex desilets posted:You guys all bent about casting lines when you're getting copious smoke, swinging bells, and whistle steam. Some folks are never satisfied. /s
The primary things that matter to me on a model steam engine are how it looks and how it runs - especially including quality of manufacture, details, paint and prototypical accuracy. I couldn't care less about smoke (never use it), swinging bells, whistle steam, etc. which increase the price and frequency of repair.
MELGAR
I just looked at my E6 Atlantic again, yeah that's terrible. I have an H10 weathered on order and if it comes through the same I'll probably return it. I'm not paying $700 for something that looks like it came out of an MPC era cheap "ready-to-run" set.
For what it's worth, I have video of MPC/LTI workers removing the parting line on die-cast boilers.
Jon 
MELGAR posted:The primary things that matter to me on a model steam engine are how it looks and how it runs - especially including quality of manufacture, details, paint and prototypical accuracy. I couldn't care less about smoke (never use it), swinging bells, whistle steam, etc. which increase the price and frequency of repair.
MELGAR
I agree with all of this 100%!
Such a shame that Lionel has allowed sub-standard, untested final products to reach the consumers. It shows to me and probable others, they no longer show "pride" in the name "Lionel", that has meant for so many, for so long.
The TM video on the making of the scale Lionel Hudson (circa 1990) showed their care and attention to detail to cleaning up the castings, including the parting lines.
