Dilemma over LHS

As a number of posters have pointed out, I have always been willing to pay a bit more for a given item if I feel that I am getting value added for the extra expense. That being said, when it comes to my trains, I don't have a problem. I really don't have a "LHS" per se, but I am very fortunate to live close to Grzyboski's (which I would classify more as a Train Store). I'd say 95% of my train dollars are spent there. His prices are always among the best available, and for me, no shipping charges magnified by instant gratification   

I have (knock wood) only had one DOA issue, a bad Fastrack switch (out of about 16 purchased). When I brought it back, Joe saw me walking in with the box under my arm, asked "bad switch", I said yes, and he got me a new one. When I needed one more O-72 wye and he was out (apparently I had bought out all he had), he offered to pick one up for me at one of the Allentown shows that weekend, and he didn't charge for the extra service.

While Joe apparently doesn't have anyone in house to do repairs, he does have someone he sends them to. I had two engines with issues, one of which I fried a major board because I hadn't yet installed fast acting circuit breakers for my PW ZW transformer. The service was excellent and reasonably priced. Both engines were returned in excellent condition and fully operational.

As I said, I consider Grzyboski's to be more of a train store, they are rather light on the scenery material side, specifically in Woodland Scenics items I was interested in. For those items, I need to go to the internet. Luckily, another forum sponsor, Nicholas Smith, has an extensive inventory, good prices, and his shipping is quite quick to NN Pennsylvania.

Some really good conversation.  Sounds like many of us face the same dilemma and others are lucky enough to have an LHS or in some cases an LTS that is nearby that is competitive and has good CS.  Feel like the practice I've been following is pretty typical.  

You know someone in this thread posted along the lines of -  he fixes trains at 70% the price of what others charge and that he is better than a lot of his online competitors.  The thing is, how does anyone know they are better than their competitors?  And in a competitive market, how can anyone ignore competition?  

That post reminded me just a little of the same philosophy that I used to hear at another nearby LHS that went out of business a couple years back.  I would ask them for a 10% discount off full MSRP (even though a number of dealers sell well below that amount).  I told them I drive up to Charlie Ro's or B&F Hobbies or down to a couple NYC dealers because they offer good prices and CS.  The LHS' entire answer was something like - 'sorry, can't offer a 10% discount. We offer quality that yo can't get from an internet seller and can't afford to charge less.'  Huh? I was referring to brick and mortar stores, but they were so close-minded, it was like talking to a brick wall.  

Curious why some folks think that shipping fees are so high?  And that they offset taxes?  Fir instance, I bought an entire train set and taxes would have been nearly $180, but the shipping fees were $57.  I bought the VLBB and taxes would have been around the same $180, but shipping was $23. 

I don't know your tax rate, but in many parts of NYS it's 8 percent. So here in NY a $180 tax bill would indicate a $2,250 purchase. I wonder what percentage of Charlie Ro's orders are in the vicinity of that? I'd guess that the majority of their orders are much lower.
The shipping on a $20 or $30 item is often $10 or more. IMHO that is a lot.

C W Burfle posted:

Curious why some folks think that shipping fees are so high?  And that they offset taxes?  Fir instance, I bought an entire train set and taxes would have been nearly $180, but the shipping fees were $57.  I bought the VLBB and taxes would have been around the same $180, but shipping was $23. 

I don't know your tax rate, but in many parts of NYS it's 8 percent. So here in NY a $180 tax bill would indicate a $2,250 purchase. I wonder what percentage of Charlie Ro's orders are in the vicinity of that? I'd guess that the majority of their orders are much lower.
The shipping on a $20 or $30 item is often $10 or more. IMHO that is a lot.

I agree, but these examples are not analogous. I could use an example where I bought a $3 item and the shipping was $9.  Or an example where I won an auction item at $371 and shipping was free. A better example would be to have the item purchased as a constant.  So for example - for a $2,000 purchase: what is, generally speaking, the tax and shipping?  In my case, taxes would equate to around $130. Shipping from Ro would be between $9-27. Never paid more than that in shipping for even a large train set. In that case, shipping is - at most - 25% of taxes.  If the item was $1,000, tax would be around $65 for me and again shipping would be no more than $27.

So, still not sure I follow the "buy from your LHS at full MSRP plus tax to avoid the dreaded shipping fees" argument? 

A better example would be to have the item purchased as a constant.

I have to admit, I have no idea what this means. Taxes are based on purchase price, shipping is based on distance and weight/package size.  So taxes are certainly going to be more significant than shipping on high dollar purchases. You want to pick a $2,000 purchase. I want to pick a $10 one.  We are both choosing values to make our case.

So, still not sure I follow the "buy from your LHS at full MSRP plus tax to avoid the dreaded shipping fees" argument? 

I am not certain anybody made this statement.

C W Burfle posted:

A better example would be to have the item purchased as a constant.

I have to admit, I have no idea what this means. Taxes are based on purchase price, shipping is based on distance and weight/package size.  So taxes are certainly going to be more significant than shipping on high dollar purchases. You want to pick a $2,000 purchase. I want to pick a $10 one.  We are both choosing values to make our case.

So, still not sure I follow the "buy from your LHS at full MSRP plus tax to avoid the dreaded shipping fees" argument? 

I am not certain anybody made this statement.

I actually used two examples of realistic purchase price - where it would make sense to buy the item via mail order instead of the LHS - for savings off MSRP. It's the rare individual who buys a $10 item via mail order to avoid paying MSRP at the LHS.  Anyway, I see your point. 

Jan posted:

I've wished for a good LHS for more than 30 years.  Model trains are just popular in the Deep South.  A new hobby shop open up 80-90 miles away in SE Alabama.  It moved their after the owners retired and wanted to be near children.

They are well stocked in O scale; surprisingly more than any other scale.  I asked them how much of their business comes from the internet -- 85%!  They have and on-line store, and they discount.  I mentioned that it was an on-line store and not an on-line presence.

I let my fingers do the typing  and not the walking. 

For a LHS to survive they need sales.  To get those sales they need the internet.

Jan

High Country Hobbies? If so, great people, great store. I stop by sometimes after work. I try to support them, but sometimes I have to get some things from other retailers.

Anyone who operates a train/hobby store in this day and age should have a "to your door" price match policy for in-stock items.  If your LHS demands full retail, I think they already told you how important customer retention is to them.  That is a decision THEY are making, and you shouldn't feel guilty.  If it's only a few dollars above internet pricing, then to me it's worth paying the difference and supporting that LHS.  

I am a believer as a consumer it's in my best interest to buy at the best price almost without exception. I would expect businesses would sell at the best price they can get for their products as well. That's what a free market is about.

LangsTrains posted:

I have been struggling with this during the week also. My nearest lhs is well known for repair and a minor sponsor here. Their pricing on many things is horrible. I did buy 072 fastrack there this week. But my daughter wants polar express and their price is $430 whereas marios has it $259 or Amazon $275. This isn't even close and I had thought msrp was $399 so idk how it's 430. A lot of comments here make sense though

Reading the price for the polar express makes me wonder if we visited the same LHS.

I have been struggling with the same thing I feel I should support the LHS since I have seen this happen in the R/C cars where you find a store that everyone races at then they don't have good prices and they close with the track a few months later, I just don't want to see that when I am just getting into O scale and would like somewhere I can walk in and ask questions too. 

It really depends on what you are buying.  Track, switches, scenery items, sure I can certainly see price being the driving factor.  But when you switch to engines, rolling stock it becomes a different story.

If your LHS has a certified repair tech and good customer service I really don't see why you would buy elsewhere unless the savings was more than 15% - 20% especially with the (lack of) success many items seem to have out of the box these days.   Shipping will eat into part of that savings and your LHS can open up and test your purchase before you take delivery.  If something is wrong, you don't have to take delivery and back it goes and you have saved yourself a lot of aggravation (and theoretically your money gets to keep earning interest until you get an item which works).  

To each his own, but it's been my experience that buying local is much easier and more rewarding - especially if something is wrong.

That being said, I'm fortunate to live close to two good LHS.  Lots of folks don't have the luxury of living close enough to one and don't have a choice.

Regards,

Greg

Greg Houser posted:

If your LHS has a certified repair tech and good customer service I really don't see why you would buy elsewhere unless the savings was more than 15% - 20% especially with the (lack of) success many items seem to have out of the box these days.   Shipping will eat into part of that savings and your LHS can open up and test your purchase before you take delivery.  If something is wrong, you don't have to take delivery and back it goes and you have saved yourself a lot of aggravation (and theoretically your money gets to keep earning interest until you get an item which works).  

To each his own, but it's been my experience that buying local is much easier and more rewarding - especially if something is wrong.

Regards,

Greg

Greg,

And you've perfectly stated one of the issues that's part of the dilemma.  I want to support the LHS.  But when he wants $2,200 for the ESE set and the store I bought it from charged me $1,500, it's really hard to justify. That $700 dfference paid for my Vision Genset Switcher. I mean, it's still really hard to justify paying that much more regardless of how good CS might be.

Put it this way, I buy my booze from a local guy who charges, on average, about 10% more than everyone else around here. But come October/November, he's the only one who makes sure I get a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle - and at MSRP, not the crazy multiples others charge. To me, that price variance is worth it.

Peter

We had several heavy train shipments of sets we sold on Ebay recently. Pricing the ground shipping costs revealed an enormous difference in charges on both sets: each weighed in the 25 pound range and UPS wanted over $80 to ship across the country for each one while the Post Office asked just half as much (around $40-45 each).

We were astounded. It pays to price shipments with different companies.

Not to get off the Price We Pay at our Local Hobby Shop, its  my thoughts that, A Good Local Hobby Shop, with a Really Good Electrical Repair Technician, (Fixes Warranty work for Lionel and MTH<ETC>,could take in Older Trains on Trade to help with the Purchase of New High Priced Items.???      For Example, Mr. Buyer has an Older 5.0 TMCC Joshua Lionel Cowen GG1 in Good to Great Condition, the Store could offer a good trade for a New VisionLine GG1. This would save the customer some money and at the same time, allow the dealer to make the sale. Thus, making some profit both on the Front End and the Rear End of the sale. 

Many dealers are not aware that they can make a good profit on pre-owned Lionel and MTH Trains. They just need a good technician for repair and upgrades on the older trains. Also, if they advertise on the Internet, Worldwide, this will really BOOOOST Their SALES!!!! (It Cost Mega Bucks to Run a Business Today, So if We give a Little, the Dealer Gives A Little, We both WIN.)

In my Opinion, and Everyone Has 1, a well organized Small Business, with a Focus on Customer Satisfaction as their main Obsession, can put together a really Great Game Plan to Attract Buyers of ALL Ages. Selling good used Diesels and Steamers and Accessories should be a great business as its easier on folks with fixed retirement incomes, as well as new Train Enthusiast...

The next part of a Successful Hobby store, and I mean this in sincerity, is to have a Well Landscaped model Railroad displaying all the Gauges They Offer.  A TMCC, Legacy, DCS, DCC and of course Conventionally Controlled Demonstration will Sell Trains!!!!!!!!!!  If the Dealer does his part, many of his Customers will Buy their Train Items from them.  I know that Service, with a Smile, and a Serving Attitude will Long Remain after the Sweetness of Low Price, or High Price is Forgotten.  Its Service after the Sale that is Long Remembered....  Merry Christmas Everyone, and Happy Railroading....

Slayers posted:

LangsTrains posted:

I have been struggling with this during the week also. My nearest lhs is well known for repair and a minor sponsor here. Their pricing on many things is horrible. I did buy 072 fastrack there this week. But my daughter wants polar express and their price is $430 whereas marios has it $259 or Amazon $275. This isn't even close and I had thought msrp was $399 so idk how it's 430.

Reading the price for the polar express makes me wonder if we visited the same LHS.

 

I see you live in Michigan so that very well could be. I live in central mich and am referencing a train store (advertising here) not a hobby store per se. There aren't too many of those in Michigan at all let alone central. 

leapinlarry posted:

 

The next part of a Successful Hobby store, and I mean this in sincerity, is to have a Well Landscaped model Railroad displaying all the Gauges They Offer.  A TMCC, Legacy, DCS, DCC and of course Conventionally Controlled Demonstration will Sell Trains!!!!!!!!!!  If the Dealer does his part, many of his Customers will Buy their Train Items from them.  I know that Service, with a Smile, and a Serving Attitude will Long Remain after the Sweetness of Low Price, or High Price is Forgotten.  Its Service after the Sale that is Long Remembered....  Merry Christmas Everyone, and Happy Railroading....

I agree. My LTS has HO LAYOUT and a lot of O LAYOUTS but I've never seen any of them run. My children have never seen them run either. I would think they would run maybe once. My one daughter stares and talks about the one O layout the whole time almost every time. I never go in alone.  They just don't get it. We are going to an O gauge open house this weekend a bit further where things will definitely be operating I assume. Though I wish I didn't have to drive 1 1/2 hours to see something run besides carpet central here at home.

We have a LHS localy that is this way, MSRP or even more.  If it wasn't for all the RC stuff he carries, he would be out of business.  However the RC stuff is very popular with the local guys at the huge Chrysler factories. Stuff on the shelf is faded and while brand new, is very dated.  Heck, he still has first run Proto 2000 HO diesels new in the box still. I have no problem spreading my money around, between online, train shows and a couple LHS's down in Indianapolis that are a nice place to shop.  Between Mr Muffin's trains, Train Central and Zionsville Train Depot, I am pretty blessed with good LHS's within an hours drive.  We got our S gauge PE set thru Amazon(we also have Prime) and also get many household items thru there.  Saves fuel in my pickup to go get them.  I burn enough diesel fuel going to work.  Shops that refuse to get with the times will eventually fade away.  Its sad to see, but unfortunatly its just the way it is right now.    Mike

I owned a hobby shop back in the 70s in Sioux City, IA. Let me explain how business works in one. Let's say business grosses you $1.00 a year for simplicity. You need something to sell. I had a blend of craft items, trains, and model planes and plastic models. To buy merchandise I got to spend an average of 60 cents of that dollar. I have 40 cents left. Translated, I get about a 40% discount on what I buy. Today margins are slimmer as in 33% discount.

Now comes the hard part. I now have 40 cents left to pay everything else. Rent, utilities, taxes, product liability (should so idiot kid decides to drink paint or snort it or dad sticks his finger to his eyeball with super glue), bank note. God forbid that I might want to buy more merchandise. After taxes and everything else was paid I netted 5%. And a very stern warning, DO NOT FORGET TO MAKE YOUR STATE TAX DEPOSITS. THEY WILL ATTEMPT TO EAT YOU ALIVE!!! Ask me how i know.

I actually had fun running my own business and was active in the neighborhood business association and a civic group. I never lost money but never made much, I had a wife who taught. 

I tried to price fairly. In order to take home $30,000 a year I would have to do better than a 1/2 Million a year. Good luck.

I used to kid my wife that I would reopen the business only if I won the lottery. Right. I did enjoy the crazy customers. The day I sold it, I walked out with my original investment.

Dick

CBQer posted:

I owned a hobby shop back in the 70s in Sioux City, IA. Let me explain how business works in one. Let's say business grosses you $1.00 a year for simplicity. You need something to sell. I had a blend of craft items, trains, and model planes and plastic models. To buy merchandise I got to spend an average of 60 cents of that dollar. I have 40 cents left. Translated, I get about a 40% discount on what I buy. Today margins are slimmer as in 33% discount.

Now comes the hard part. I now have 40 cents left to pay everything else. Rent, utilities, taxes, product liability (should so idiot kid decides to drink paint or snort it or dad sticks his finger to his eyeball with super glue), bank note. God forbid that I might want to buy more merchandise. After taxes and everything else was paid I netted 5%. And a very stern warning, DO NOT FORGET TO MAKE YOUR STATE TAX DEPOSITS. THEY WILL ATTEMPT TO EAT YOU ALIVE!!! Ask me how i know.

I actually had fun running my own business and was active in the neighborhood business association and a civic group. I never lost money but never made much, I had a wife who taught. 

I tried to price fairly. In order to take home $30,000 a year I would have to do better than a 1/2 Million a year. Good luck.

I used to kid my wife that I would reopen the business only if I won the lottery. Right. I did enjoy the crazy customers. The day I sold it, I walked out with my original investment.

Dick

 

 

 

 

 

Dick thank you for this breakdown.It is sad how many people(Please no hate mail)do not understand what a business is.Today your $30,000 would become $20,000 because the MFG.keeps raising the wholesale price but your retail end cannot bare a price increase.Just sayin.Nick

CBQer posted:

I owned a hobby shop back in the 70s in Sioux City, IA. Let me explain how business works in one. Let's say business grosses you $1.00 a year for simplicity. You need something to sell. I had a blend of craft items, trains, and model planes and plastic models. To buy merchandise I got to spend an average of 60 cents of that dollar. I have 40 cents left. Translated, I get about a 40% discount on what I buy. Today margins are slimmer as in 33% discount.

Now comes the hard part. I now have 40 cents left to pay everything else. Rent, utilities, taxes, product liability (should so idiot kid decides to drink paint or snort it or dad sticks his finger to his eyeball with super glue), bank note. God forbid that I might want to buy more merchandise. After taxes and everything else was paid I netted 5%. And a very stern warning, DO NOT FORGET TO MAKE YOUR STATE TAX DEPOSITS. THEY WILL ATTEMPT TO EAT YOU ALIVE!!! Ask me how i know.

I actually had fun running my own business and was active in the neighborhood business association and a civic group. I never lost money but never made much, I had a wife who taught. 

I tried to price fairly. In order to take home $30,000 a year I would have to do better than a 1/2 Million a year. Good luck.

I used to kid my wife that I would reopen the business only if I won the lottery. Right. I did enjoy the crazy customers. The day I sold it, I walked out with my original investment.

Dick

This is interesting perspective from someone who has lived it.  Thank you Dick.  

Reading this makes me think how my local LHS/LTS does it.  New Jersey is one of the most business unfriendly states out there and yet my local LTS has competitive pricing.  

I judge competitive in the following way.  

Local LTS, price including tax - Mail order, price including shipping and tax.  But I also take into the account he is a local business with local rent, taxes, etc.  So I don't always expect to get the best price I can from him, but I always buy from him first.  A modest difference in price is worth it to me to have a great place to go.

There is another LHS about 25 minutes from me.  He is the last place I look.  Why?  His prices are significantly higher (retail and maybe higher) and he has a level of arrogance about him (I don't do well with arrogance).  If I needed something to get my grandkids trains running on Christmas Eve and he was the only hope, I would go there.  He is also a true LHS as he dabbles in RC, trains, models etc.

IMHO, we should all support our local guys where it makes sense.  They have to make money but they have to figure out how to be competitive (which is not necessarily cheaper). 

Tony

Dick, thanks for posting that chilling insight into how a real LHS actually works. It lines up pretty well with the picture I get from our LHS here in town. I have known several of the guys there for a long time and I never get the idea that it is a get-rich-quick operation.

It sounds like a good way to "make a small fortune" in the train shop business is to start out with a large one! Fortune that is.

A few times since retiring I have pondered the idea of buying into a train shop business, just for fun; but threads like this one have always jerked me back into reality just in time, thankfully.

Rod

If margins are only 30% I don't understand how one can find the polar express for 260. I've read repeatedly that margins are very thin and apparently there are different tiers from lionel. Marios still has it for $260 with free shipping plus there are credit card/PayPal fees. Msrp is 400. It's a moot point for me because LTS has prices over msrp and suspect cs. I would just assume that places like marios hopes for additional purchases to make up difference. A move that is probably accurate in my case.

I am closing my store at the end of this year and retiring. Twenty years went by in a flash and I had lots of fun. There were many challenges some of which have been alluded to above. I have to laugh at the belief that you can shop away but still have a local store to go to for advice or help with your latest purchase which has crapped out. The guy that demanded a 10% discount, that equates to putting your hand in the owner's pocket and taking his pay cheque! Anyhow, I could write a book but as I say it was fun and I have no regrets.

midnightwrecking posted:

I am closing my store at the end of this year and retiring. Twenty years went by in a flash and I had lots of fun. ... The guy that demanded a 10% discount, that equates to putting your hand in the owner's pocket and taking his pay cheque! Anyhow, I could write a book but as I say it was fun and I have no regrets.

I think you have a healthy attitude in that the ride was "fun" even though you've decided to close the store.  Best wishes in your retirement. 

I guess my biggest concern, however, is your statement that selling at a 10% discount equates to your paycheck disappearing.   That's one of my biggest concerns with some of the latest pricing increases.  If you're telling us that you needed to sell a Big Boy for $2,700 MSRP instead of offering your customers a $270 discount, then that's one HUGE problem.  Because that $2,700 MSRP is joke to begin with.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I said earlier that businesses can't simply pass on their "problems" to consumers, if they expect to stay relevant and provide value.  There really is a point at which your customers won't care about your problems as a business owner (in this case, perhaps a high internal cost) if the overall value isn't there.  And I'm already at that point with a lot of the newest toy trains.  I have no problem whatsoever telling Howard Hitchcock at Lionel that if he's gonna tell me the next VisionLine steam locomotive is gonna have a $3K MSRP, then just save yourself the trouble and don't make it.    I passed on the Big Boy, so I'm sure not gonna splurge on something even more expensive -- not because I can't afford it but rather because I've decided the value just isn't there (for me).  And I have no desire whatsoever in supporting an out-dated supply chain riddled with inflated costs that do nothing for me as a toy train enthusiast.  Translation:  I'm not gonna pay inflated prices today just so Lionel can be here next year to raise prices again. 

It's ironic that when most of us "got back into O-Gauge trains" in the late 1970's and 1980's, only 10-15 years had elapsed from the point when other interests took took precedence in our lives (i.e., college, girls, first jobs, etc...).  Not really all that much time.  Compare that to today:  2017 will soon be here, which is approaching 40+ years (for some of us) we've been "back in the hobby".  That's a good chunk of years we've been buying trains, and many of us now have more trains than our great-grandchildren could ever enjoy -- if they'd even be interested in the hobby when they're a bit older.  So it's not like we're STARVING for more new trains at any price whatsoever.  We've been buying them for 4 or 5 decades.  So if I went 5 years without buying any new trains, I assure you my world wouldn't fall apart. 

I have no silver bullet answers here, but I'm sure glad I'm not a train dealer in this market.  Because at this point, I think an increasing number of folks are watching all of this from the sidelines nowadays rather than pre-ordering every premium product offered anymore -- no matter how those products are marketed (i.e., BTO, Limited Edition, Allocated, etc...).  People have money to spend today, but they need to see the VALUE before they part with those hard-earned dollars.  And if you can't offer a 10% discount of already highly-inflated MSRP's, then something's definitely wrong with that picture.

David

During my years as owner or partner of 2 hobby shops our discounts off MSRP was 40 and 10.......that's not 50% off but close. And on some items it was 40, 10 and 10.  If standard discount today is 30% all shops will be gone in a year. 

My LHS discounts 10 to 25 percent daily.....so not sure how he is doing it for many years in a store of 4000 sq feet.  Happy to be out of the biz today. 

Dick's perspective says a few things to me. First, based on his description of what he thought of his customers, it's no surprise (and it's good news) that he is no longer in a customer-oriented business, especially one where children are involved.   Second, I'm not sure I agree with the accuracy of his portrayal, or maybe that was the case 40 years ago when he says he was in the biz.  I find it hard to believe that a hobby shop, like Madison Ave. trains or any in a high-rent district,  can pay the crazy rent and all the other premiums associated with a high-rent district, pay employees, have that much stock (sunk cost) in the walls and stay in business for years on a 5% return.  Not saying it's impossible, it's just curious.   Especially when there are plenty of brick and mortar store dealers who sell at such discounts that they could never sustain at the margin Dick is claiming.  

I am about to make a statement that many will disagree with and to be honest I don't blame them, but like the old philosopher said it is what it is and you call things as you see it.

So here goes. What we are seeing in the toy train industry with pricing is the same thing we se in all industry and pay scale of the workers.

We live in a world where everyone wonts it for free and no one wonts to share the wealth. In other words manufactures treat the dealers the same way they treat the workers by saying to themselves, why should we pay our potential customers a livable wage when we can get the peasants over there do  the work for a quarter of what our customer base needs to live.  

As for us the buyer, lets face it we could care less if anyone eats when they go home at night as long as we get what we wont. At the same time we throw 2 plus K at toys that don't work and chirp hardly a word demanding quality.

In short we have become a world of gluttons  with a myopic view of the world.

So, if you wont to change the world change yourself first.

Ok, I'll go back to dreaming about trains now!

this thread is heading down the same as 'made in usa'    ie deleted

My perspective may be skewed as I don't buy $1,200 Engines, however I routinely pay 10% more to shop at my LHS. A couple of reasons:

• Attitude - Ray is always glad to see me and appreciates my business
• Convenience - Ray is about 2 miles from my office
• Testing - I can test every engine I buy on his layout before walking out
• Repairs - Have four engines in for repairs. Kenny (the gentleman who does the repairs) asked me to stop in so he could explain my options with all four. Two were quick fixes for $50. One is being upgraded to P3, and one is being turned into a dummy (1998 Vintage MTH was not worth upgrading to P3) $35. Wonder what just the shipping charges would be to get four engines fixed, no less the parts & labor.
• Parts - I needed a bulb for a Lionel Christmas Car and he had it - and a few thousand others.
• People - Met a new O gauge guy today in the store.
• Pay if Forward - I would like to see continue to stay in business and expose a new group of people to our hobby.

Last - With a name like Grandpas Trains, how can you not want to see them succeed

Yeah, it costs me more when I add it all up - but it's worth it to me. In spades.

Paul

Dave - it is on a detour that's for sure.

I suppose I got my answer a while ago listening to other views on the point I initially posted. In essence, support the LHS if it makes sense or, if it doesn't make sense, if I want to be charitable.  

Peter

PJB posted:

I'm a big believer in the brick-and-mortar store - when the store keeps current and has great customer service. My  LHS (40 minutes away) is that kind of store. Plus, it's a great throwback to the old days (been there since 1940 and they kept many of the classic aspects). The look, the feel, the selection of all kinds of toys and games.  And the back area is devoted to trains - all kinds of trains!  With a big lean toward O.  They even have a huge O layout in the lower level.  And the folks there are all top notch. 

The dilemma is - their pricing.  Full MSRP or more on everything. They will not negotiate.  

D500 posted:

Your nearby LHS doesn't seem to "get it". Had one like that around here. Faded set boxes on the shelf; still wouldn't take my honestly reasonable offers. They're gone now. 

Most 'faded box'-stock shops are gone now, I'd think.

As for negotiating, I can't recall seeing many LHS types that would negotiate prices. I was a kid the last time I was at one that would (and their stock was ancient, for example they had the old "pop top" style couplers new in the wrappers on the shelves!).

I think a LHS is best for:

• Magazines that you can't get at the local Barnes and Noble magazine section (even though the B&N nearest me has a lot of model train mags). If a hobby shop wouldn't stock the standards for the hobby, count me out.
• Being able to see the stuff in person and not just in a magazine/online photo, to see if it's really what you want.
• Little stuff you wouldn't pay postage to get (one set of extra couplers, single can/bottle of paint or other little item you only need that and nothing else right now).

The sad part is that I've supported several LHS around here, paying retail (or even higher in some cases) and I've watched all but one vanish since I moved here at the end of the 90s. There's only one decent model train store I hit (and buy from) with frequency, and I fully expect it to be gone by this time next year. It's a shame because the owner is a good guy and his prices are very good (better than mail order in many cases). But even then, it's almost 50 miles north of here. Once he's gone, there are a few tiny little stores, which could vanish at any time, and Hobby Lobby (for scenery stuff and basic modeling supplies).

I'm just glad that I'm almost complete with what I call, "The initial build" of my layout and no longer need many trips to the LHS or much stuff for the layout at all. Mail order will work from now on, and that's good because it's gonna have to, probably by the end of next year.

I support my LHS or is it LTS (local train store?). I can't decipher all these acronyms. If a dealer isn't willing to negotiate a price below MSRP, he is going to have NOS sitting on the shelf for many years and then after 3 to 5 years they have a product neither Lionel or MTH will warranty. Also, no retail business today is going to succeed without internet sales.

midnightwrecking posted:

... The guy that demanded a 10% discount, that equates to putting your hand in the owner's pocket and taking his pay cheque! ...

By the same token, charging 10% more than a customer can pay elsewhere is like putting your hand into his pocket and taking a chunk of his hard-earned money.

p51 posted:

I think a LHS is best for:

• Magazines that you can't get at the local Barnes and Noble magazine section (even though the B&N nearest me has a lot of model train mags). If a hobby shop wouldn't stock the standards for the hobby, count me out.
• Being able to see the stuff in person and not just in a magazine/online photo, to see if it's really what you want.
• Little stuff you wouldn't pay postage to get (one set of extra couplers, single can/bottle of paint or other little item you only need that and nothing else right now).

 

wow......

Thank you for your sincerity?  

Surely you can't believe that a 'LHS' purveying these "best" services to a hobbyist could support a proprietor and, perhaps, his family, pay taxes, employ anyone...any one....else, build a retirement, purchase health insurance/home/car/etc.???   

Or can you?

It's really interesting reading your bullet list....the second comment in particular.  Since our (LHS) owner actually experienced this, it brings a lot of credence...but zero cash, of course...to your thought.  It went like this....

At the peak of the value of small shops...Local Hobby Shops, in particular...you know, before the advent/growth of online sales...our boss had established 5 hobby shops within our state, all of them owned/financed personally by himself.  Then, between manufacturing jobs (providing the 'discretionary income' as well as local traffic that supported the shops) leaving forever, online competition, deteriorating local/state/national economy, rising costs-of-living, etc., etc., blah, blah,.....he began to close the stores....one by one.   

As the boss was ringing the cash register during the final blow-out sales days of one store's closing, a customer...probably not really knowing that he was addressing the store's owner....said, in effect, 'Gee!  I'm really sad to see this store closing!  I enjoyed coming here to see the new items before searching best prices on-line!'  

True story....sadly told by our boss.  It's what we now refer to as the 'museum syndrome' in the business.....coming to see with no intent to purchase.   'Kicking tires' is another old way of putting it.

Even though we post MSRP for items, we're prepared to help the customers with some price concessions when we can....and because we know many of our customers are in the same ark, financially.  But, too often we (he) simply cannot compete with the faceless likes of on-line competition, volume buyers, less costly real estate and retail trappings, etc..  

And, so, the remaining two stores are, perhaps, on borrowed time.  

Magazines?  Dusty displays?  Bottles of paint, tubes of glue?   That's the value of a Local Hobby Shop?

Oy vey.

KD

THINKING???? For You folks that have never ran a Business, or Been in Sales and Lived ONLY ON COMMISSION, Owning a Store is a HUGE COSTLY ADVENTURE.....You have Lights, Rent, Operating Layouts, Store Fixtures, Shelving, Inventory, Gas, Heating and Cooling, Restroom maintenance, Advertising, INSURANCE< INSURANCE<INSURANCE, Operating Capital, Inventory Rotation, Hired Help, a Family to Support, a Home to Pay for, a Car or Truck to Drive, and Pay for, and ALL of This and More, Cost Money before the FIRST SALE IS MADE.....Come ON, Give me a Break???? And YOU, Mr. Customer Have a big Issue over 10 Per Cent????  If YOU think for One Minute this is a Get Rich Business, Get Yourself a Hobby Store!!!  (You must remember, This Dealer taking Future Orders, BTO Products, does not get paid until the final sale is made, even if there is a Deposit on the item. Also, special Orders cost un-Expected Funds that have to be Paid.....Never ending Cost)

For those fellows that think telling a store owner, thanks for showing you his products and telling them, well guess I will get online and find me a Deal....This is a Sad Situation....In my opinion, its best to keep our thoughts to ourselves instead of ever hurting a working mans feelings....I sell HONDA, and folks go after the best price and You should see the shows I see trying to get us to lower our price....Its fun to see how people think... I have been in sales for over 50 Years, living on Strait Commission and Yes, its work, its fun, and its a real Challenge with most Buyers..... I am blessed to have over 3800 Customers and have made many friends in my selling days, but, a small business such as our hobby shops are living from month to month and competing with the Giants of the Hobby are TOUGH... Lets try our best to Support these folks promoting the Hobby and not be so Price Conscious. I am not saying pay through the roof for any given product, but a Fair Price, mutually agreeable to the Buyer as well as the Seller.....Lets Have Fun with our trains.....Merry Christmas

I can't support any of my local train stores or hobby shops because none of them carry any 2-rail locomotives, rolling stock or track. It also depends on what railroad and models you are interested in.

Pat's Trains (forum sponsor) has in stock a special run of Wheeling & Lake Erie GP40's in 2-rail. This is a roadname that I model and the GP40 is one of my favorite engines so I recently bought 2, 1 over the phone and the other in person since he's about an hour away.

Since he carries 2-rail he is now my local train store. He's a great guy, too, and that makes it even better.

dkdkrd posted:

...  As the boss was ringing the cash register during the final blow-out sales days of one store's closing, a customer...probably not really knowing that he was addressing the store's owner....said, in effect, 'Gee!  I'm really sad to see this store closing!  I enjoyed coming here to see the new items before searching best prices on-line!'  ...

leapinlarry posted:

...  For those fellows that think telling a store owner, thanks for showing you his products and telling them, well guess I will get online and find me a Deal....This is a Sad Situation....In my opinion, its best to keep our thoughts to ourselves instead of ever hurting a working mans feelings....

I've experienced this crass behavior first-hand.  A few years ago while photographing the local high school's marching band for their PhotoDay, it was pretty obvious that one of the "mothers" was watching every move I made photographing slightly over 100 students that morning.  After we were finished photographing and were packing up all our lighting equipment, she actually had the audacity to tell me, "Thanks for letting me observe your work today.  I'm hoping to photograph this group next year and wanted to see how you do it, so we won't need to use you again."    True story.

Some folks can be real @ssholes. 

BTW, we're still photographing that group.  Because at the end of the day, people buy from people they LIKE!!! 

David

dkdkrd posted:

p51 posted:

I think a LHS is best for:

• Magazines that you can't get at the local Barnes and Noble magazine section (even though the B&N nearest me has a lot of model train mags). If a hobby shop wouldn't stock the standards for the hobby, count me out.
• Being able to see the stuff in person and not just in a magazine/online photo, to see if it's really what you want.
• Little stuff you wouldn't pay postage to get (one set of extra couplers, single can/bottle of paint or other little item you only need that and nothing else right now).

 

wow......

Thank you for your sincerity?  

Surely you can't believe that a 'LHS' purveying these "best" services to a hobbyist could support a proprietor and, perhaps, his family, pay taxes, employ anyone...any one....else, build a retirement, purchase health insurance/home/car/etc.???   

Or can you?

 

KD

KD and LeapingLarry (in particular),

You are stating (very well) the dilemma of the store owner.  But from the consumer perspective (which is what defines the market) - if someone sets up a business based on a poor business model and then cannot compete -  why is this the consumer's cross to bear?  This thinking is not coherent in a capitalistic market.  Full stop.  Maybe in a socialist economy where progress and individual success don't matter?     

Are you saying you (not that it would change market dynamics in any way) never do comparative shopping? Never look for a deal?  Would never buy any hobby related item at a store that is going out of business and selling at a lower price than your poor struggling LHS?  Is price never a thought in any of your purchasing decision?  Not when you pay for a TV set, fuel, clothing, a car, furniture, groceries, or anything at all?   

You are stating (very well) the dilemma of the store owner.  But from the consumer perspective (which is what defines the market) - if someone sets up a business based on a poor business model and then cannot compete -  why is this the consumer's cross to bear?  This thinking is not coherent in a capitalistic market.  Full stop.  Maybe in a socialist economy where progress and individual success don't matter?     

Are you saying you (not that it would change market dynamics in any way) never do comparative shopping? Never look for a deal?  Would never buy any hobby related item at a store that is going out of business and selling at a lower price than your poor struggling LHS?  Is price never a thought in any of your purchasing decision?  Not when you pay for a TV set, fuel, clothing, a car, furniture, groceries, or anything at all?  

All true. So folks shouldn't be complaining about disappearing local stores, and a lack of places to get customer service.

PJB...

We could ramble on for hours about business models, market  forces/dynamics, consumer preferences/habits, etc..   There is no "dilemma" from my employee perspective.  Most of the LHS's I've frequented through my 70+ years...including ours...were started many, many years ago.  There is now essentially a convergence of shop/proprietor age and a business climate that no longer wants their format.  The tea leaves are quite easy to read, as the nearly monthly announcements indicate......it's time to close up shop.  Did you happen to see the movie You've Got Mail?

Actually, the remaining two shops I mentioned are doing fairly well.....but not at all in 'trains'.  The GROWTH  hobby is in the Radio Control (RC) realm...cars/trucks, airplanes, boats, DRONES!!!, helicopters, military models, construction equipment.  Advances in battery technology, miniaturization of high torque motors, and sophisticated electronics at reasonable prices are driving forces for this end of the hobby world.  (Defense uses of these technologies has certainly helped drive advances, too!!)   In fact, I can think of at least a half-dozen former trains customers who now make a bee-line to the RC counter when they come to the shop.  Some have sold off their trains, others have simply put them away.

Of course, there is another advantage to the RC hobbies......Expertise behind the counter (our version of 'counter intelligence') trumps price, alone.  Further, repair RC parts/service/availability is one area where the on-line faceless folks have little hope in the near term of competing well with the expertly staffed LHS.  

One of the RC market 'forces' that will never go away.....thankfully!.....is GRAVITY!  Airplanes, helicopters, drones.....they're in defiance of good ol' gravity.  And when 'The Force' wins.......so does the hobby shop!  I mean, unless you're willing to pick up the remains of your Big Boy...that has succumbed to 'The Force'...with a garden rake and humbly go to your LHS with a basket of detritus seeking parts and help....or Last Rites!...with a smile on your face because it's all part of your hobby passion/expectation (?)....you're probably in the wrong hobby.  Yep, in the RC world....Crash=Cash......kaaaaaaa-ching!!!!!!

In fact I've sometimes heard folks say that the most important person on a ship is not the captain, but the cook!?......well, I'd say the RC expert(s) we have on staff is/are in the same league!

Enough said for now.  No disagreement with your premises here.  Again, I appreciate your sincerity.

Nonetheless, when it comes to our Trains Dept. outlook............Oy vey!

KD