Discrimination for 2-rail types?

Eh!!!!!!!  People these days!!!  I'm sure their response is because they know you are not going to buy anything from them.

 

Rick

I've heard some stories from some of the 2-rail guys I associated with years ago on the original OTrains Yahoo group about things like that in the early days (1950's/early 1960's). Makes me wonder if WE (3-railers) started the whole 2-rail vs. 3-rail thing.

 

Past aside, the 3-rail and 2-rail communities need to cooperate/collaborate as much as possible to ensure the continued future of the "O" segment of the hobby.

Most people who make such disparaging remarks are basically uninformed and speak more out of ignorance than trying to insult you. My recommendation, just move on.

More surprising, to me anyway, is the growing acceptance from the 2-Rail SCALE modelers, of what many of us are doing in 3-Rail SCALE modeling. They seem to be much more appreciative of what we 3RS folks have been able to get manufactured, that is very compatible for 2-Rail modeling.

 

On the other hand, I have had the "upturned nose" from the 3-Rail "toy train" guys concerning the 3RS concept.

Yeah, I've heard of that, as well.

The problem with O is, it can break down in several sub groups who generally have no need for another:

• O scale tinplate
• O scale postwar 3-rail
• 3 rail scale
• 3 rail not scale (more toy oriented)
• O scale 2 rail
• Proto 48
• On3
• On30 (the 'upstart gague,' one vendor recently sneered at me)

I'm sure I'm missing a few other headings here. I swear I just don't see this in other scales the way I do in O...

Really? 100 % of the time? Can it be a case of self fulfilling prophecy?

I have been a 2R guy most of my life, but nowadays I just like trains. I've seen good modeling in every discipline, and anymore I appreciate that more than anything.

Jeff C

"I swear I just don't see this in other scales the way I do in O..."

 

   Mostly because other scales don't have so many sub-sets.  S has a flyer-S scale division and N has a pizza cutter-low profile flange division but they are minor compared to the differences in interest between 3 rail O and On30. I'd think On30 modelers would find more in common with HO scale or maybe Sn3 guys? ...DaveB

Not me.  The only disparagement I have ever felt is from non- model railroaders, who consider this hobby about the same as playing with barbie dolls.  Those folks do not bother me, and my macho is intact.  I can show them one of my other hobbies - aerobatics - and maybe their attitude will soften.

 

I like Hot's comment above - the 3-rail scale movement has opened up 2-rail scale by a huge amount.  I will occasionally comment about my lack of understanding of how a modeler can put up with a center rail when everything else is flat-out perfect, but I never mean it as disparagement.

 

Check out the AC-9 video that Laidoff posted - even with 3-rail track, that is one of the most realistic model scenes I have yet seen.  And I will probably never own an AC-9 model due to strange personal preferences. What a gorgeous model -what a stunning layout!

Lee,

If what you say is true, (and I have no reason to doubt that it is) I formally apologize for my short sighted, and narrow minded colleagues. Most of the model railroaders I have been fortunate to meet and talk to are willing to talk and help regardless of scale. It used to be 3 railers would get the remarks from the 2 rail (mostly HO and S gauge) enthusiasts. I don't see much of that any more either. Most of my acquaintances are gauge/scale neutral. We all can learn from each other.

At show, if there's a discussion at all with a vendor who focuses on 3-rail, the script has always read like this from said vendo:

Vendor: What do you model? (this is sometimes followed by a mention of the newest MTH or Lionel product they have to sell, normally by model #)

Me: I'm into On30

Vendor: (either) That stuff? That's going to kill the hobby... it's not even a real gauge!(or) So, you think you're above traditional model trains or something?

 

I do not bring this on myself. I had a pal come with me (he's into HO but thinking of getting into On30 on the side) and he's the one who noticed it. I'd heard it so many times I hadn't even given it any serious thought before then.

Same reaction when we got to the model club displays at the show. If anyone from the 3-rail groups came up to talk, they'd ask if either of us were modelers and if so, if we're into 3-rail. Same outcome there.

My pal made the comment when we left the show, "What the heck is up with these 3-rail guys? Do they all think that anyone not in their scale is wrong or something?"

Ridiculous, rude, stupid, and tacky. What's the point of knocking an entire niche of the hobby? Personally, I sometimes wind up with a few 2-rail items on my table at train shows and I'd be pretty dumb to turn off potential customers. Even if you're not selling any 2-rail, a lot of 3-rail is easily converted and 2-railers are mostly accustomed to doing the conversions, so any 3-rail seller who knocks 2-rail is just chasing away business.

Maybe you're just going to the wrong shows, meets, clubs, etc.?

I simply refuse to believe I'm bumping into the only people doing this.

Maybe you should attend the National Narrow Gauge Convention and test out that hypothesis.  Or, the Mid-Atlantic Narrow Gauge Guild meets or the equivalent within your range of travel....

 

http://midatlanticng.org/index.html

I think you're missing the point. Of course you're not going to likely get the sneer at an event dedicated to NG trains. I'm talking about mainstream model train shows and sales

Just wondering: What percentage of product at a typical train show is O-scale narrow gauge?

 

I have attended a few trains shows in town, and don't recall seeing any O-scale narrow gauge. But maybe I'm just subconsciously too zoned in of 3 rail O-scale standard gauge to see anything else.

That just has not been my experience. My On30 modular club has displayed our point to point layout at two local Greenberg shows and those are a melting pot of diverse scale/gauge ideology. I received positive acclamation about the layout from a local 3 railer who posts on here. We would have participated in a set up with his group's 3 rail modular layout if we could have worked out the whole insurance issue (two different sponsoring organizations).

"Ridiculous, rude, stupid, and tacky".

Yep.

 

I think there are individuals like that in every hobby I been in over the decades.

Boats, competitive shooting matches and a real big one is motorcycles.

 

Oh well peace be with them if there happy.

 

Lee as long as you like it,  that's all that really counts.

 

Larry

I get it at shows sometimes too. Mention you're into O-27 or (Heaven forbid) Marx and even some of the 3 rail traditional guys will look down their noses at you!

 

 

 

 

Not very much where I am. For a while, you used to be able find On30 quite a bit but it's oddly dried up in the past year.

The vast majority of stuff I see for sale at model shows around here is 3-rail related. Second is HO (and often really old and beat up TYCO stuff filling cardboard boxes) with N starting to become really popular in these parts.

Any vendor you see with O scale is almost certainly going to be 3-rail focused. I have no problem with that as that's where the money is.

But as often as modelers change their scales through their liftetimes, you'd think a vendor wouldn't be big on knocking another scale as today's "guy who doesn't model the scale I'm into" is likely tomorrow's, "guy who is into the same stuff I am, or sell"...

I was at the Edison show this past weekend . Our modular layout is hirail.
I heard very disparaging remarks about our layout.
Like, don't these idiots know that real trains have two rails, and several other insults. I took them aside that if they did not move away I would put one these O scale engines  in a place where the sun don't shine.

Besides there were kids trying to see the layout.

Fwiw, I did not loose an engine

At my club the Black Diamond Society of Model Engineers in Bethlehem Pa on the ground floor we have a layout with 2 Rail O, 3 Rail O, On30, and S Gauge trains. We all get along pretty well and the one thing we have in common is we greatly dislike those $*^&** HO guys on the second floor.

 

Our open house starts this weekend 12/6 & 7 2 to 5 PM, 12/13 & 14 Same hours, 1/3 & 4 2015, 1/10 & 11, and the final show 2/7 & 8. Stop by if you can we also have a company store selling all gauges of RR stuff.

 

JohnB

I get these disparaging remarks from two railers esp at their O scale only shows and exclusive clubs. I then laugh as I see converted 3 rail stuff on their 2 rail layouts as well as many 2 rail locos missing operating headlights, marker lights, basic maintenance, etc. "yeah like they are a perfect bunch eh?"

I've gotten looks from HO guys (not at shows, though), and I've seen O gauge guys sneer at HO.  It's ridiculous in my opinion.  In reality we're all in the same hobby and the fact that you're not personally into something doesn't make it inferior.  There will always be people who try to make others feel small in one way or another, and I have no time for that attitude.

It's not an exclusive problem with some 2 Rail O folks.  I see the same things happening with some 3-Railers, G, HO, S, and N folks.

 

Rusty

 

 Sounds more like friendly banter to me - I'm a Ford man - Oh yeah? Chevys are better!  If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going.  O Gauge or No Gauge.  Tailwheel is on the wrong end.

 

Taking this stuff seriously is likely to suck the enjoyment out of life, let alone a hobby.

 

Opinion.

I must say that I've heard some disparaging remarks about any scale I've ever been in (which is basically all of them ), but I can't say it's ever really bothered me.

 

A good way to handle this sort of thing is to ignore it, and a good way to do that is to remember that the disparaging comment defines the person running his or her mouth much more than it defines you.

 

Jeff C

 

Maybe, maybe not. Railroads were not required to turn on the headlights and marker lights during daylight hours before 1954 or so. And why would they waste their resources. To represent that time, you'd have them turned off at high noon which is what most people represent on their railroads. 

 

The two rail exclusive shows are held so two railers don't have to meander through 8 buildings of 3 rail stuff to find one two rail item. It isn't a knock on anyone.

 

The scale oriented people talk about, and nitpick the trains which is pretty appropriate. This seems to irk the toy train folks, so they in turn talk about the scale oriented people which is innappropriate. I pretty much agree with Hotwaters Assessment.

Some folks just have this need to ruin the hobby for others regardless of scale. For them, life is probably pretty boring, thus they feel this need to turn their noses up at others who do not share in their activities.

 

The bottom line is: Model railroading is about the coolest most fun and technologically advanced hobby on the planet no matter WHAT! scale/gauge one subscribes too.

 

Just my 2 cents

I have seen both ON3 and ON30 at O Scale Shows - - 2 rail shows such as Cleveland in Nov and the "March Meet" in Chicago in March.   Also the Indy meet in September.   These shows tend to be scale 2 rail mostly.   Now days there is often some MTH or Lionel scale size stuff, some even converted to 2 rail.   

 

But at these shows I have never heard anything negative said about narrow gauge or 3 rail or whatever.    

 

Narrow gauge is still O scale and there often some of both ON3 and even more ON30 at the March Meet especially.

 

As for real gauge, well that is not true.   What is probably true I think is that there was no common carrier 30 inch gauge in the USA (note I think).    However, there was/is a lot of 750/760 mm gauge in europe which I think translates to 30 inch or thereabouts.   

 

And in the USA, there were industrial or mining railroads using 30 inch gauge.   

 

And there were the 2 foot gauge common carriers in Maine.

 

So you cannot say that ON30 is not a real gauge.    And to reply to that, what mainline RRs used 3 rail track?    There are some commuters that still use outside 3rd rail, but I can't think of anything that used a center rail in the prototype.   So be calm and keep that in mind if someone says something about ON30.   If they say it is not rea, you can respond neither is 3 rail track.

I think the only inter-gauge bitterness I've ever seen has been right here on this forum.  The occasional caustic cracks from 3rs people about 027/PW operators and collectors sometimes border on the venomous.

 

Psssst...don't point out that O scale track is really 5 feet wide* and that's not a "real" gauge either. 

 

*unless they're following Proto:48 standards, that is. 

Actually, if you model PA trolley lines, the track is 5 feet & 2.5 inches.  2.5 scale inches ~ 0.05" is within my range of acceptable since my hand laid track probably has that much variance in it anyway,

Oops!  I am guilty.  I have expressed my annoyance that I wished all the On30 stuff

had been made as On3, including to a narrow gauge magazine publisher, who challenged me on it, for he said On30 brought people into narrow gauge modeling.

My complaint  was that all the energy spent on developing On30, special track, etc.,

could have made On3 more accessible and less the province of scratch builders and

track layers.  ONCE low cost, Bachmann rolling stock, if in On3, with something

besides thousand dollar brass locos, would have opened it up.  And I get annoyed

that all this stuff is made in HO, and never offered in O gauge/scale. That opinion I

just express on here.  Would I have a problem if Bachmann and others were all made in both On30 and On3, and Atlas was making On3 track?  Naw.  I don't care what is

made in or who models in other scales, as long as I can get what I want.

My experiences have been just the opposite, I'd be retired if I had a dollar for every time I heard about how, "I could NEVER accept/live with that 3RD Rail", then have same usually HO modeler get a gleam in his eye describing how he is modeling a 100 mile sub-division on a 5x10 or 6x12 layout, REALLY? 100 miles in 50-72 square feet???

 

 I am still a (Inactive) member of a large HO club, with a 60x70 layout, I stopped in during our November open house, and there was a pair of Union Pacific DDA40X's pulling 84 50-60 boxcars, even on a LARGE layout like the club's, it TOTALLY RUINED the effect, that train would be in 2-3 different towns at the same time, and was only about 2/3 - 3/4 the length of what would be "prototypical"

 

 Before the layout was converted to DCC, the yards and staging tracks were set up to typically handle 15 car trains, NOT what you would expect to see on the UP's mainline through the Columbia River Gorge(where the layout is modeled after) anything over about 25-30 cars, just starts diminishing the effect and appearance.

 

Model Railroading is as much a Hobby of BALANCES and COMPROMISES, as it is about trains. Some can look at a 5x10 layout and "See" 100 miles of Railroad, Me I don't have any trouble "Not Seeing, that center rail" We each make our own choices, and unfortunately, some can't/don't/wont respect the choices of others.

 

Doug

"I have expressed my annoyance that I wished all the On30 stuff

had been made as On3, including to a narrow gauge magazine publisher, who challenged me on it, for he said On30 brought people into narrow gauge modeling.

My complaint  was that all the energy spent on developing On30, special track, etc.,

could have made On3 more accessible and less the province of scratch builders and

track layers.  ONCE low cost, Bachmann rolling stock, if in On3, with something

besides thousand dollar brass locos, would have opened it up."

 

   Anyone who's been around a while feels the same way. Bachman took the easy way out at the time and now it's too late to fix it so what might have been is quite sad to contemplate. I feel the same way about the lack of S scale and TT scale equipment too, some great layouts are not getting made due to lack of product. O gauge running on 5 foot track all these years is another example of compromise that could have been fixed long ago. and it still goes on today. Lionel won't make S scale stuff unless it will run on out dated Flyer curves....DaveB 

Expressing annoyance is not the same thing as disparaging.  I am annoyed that my scale does not match the gauge, puzzled that they let the same thing happen to G gauge, and mildly annoyed that modern die cast steam seems to have U shaped boilers.  That is my problem, and I am free to express it.  There are some parts of the train hobby that I want nothing to do with, but I do not spend any time at all making disparaging remarks aimed at making folks uncomfortable.  If one were to ask, I would freely admit that I pay no attention at all to Thomas and Polar Express.  Those are someone else's hobby, and they do not annoy me.

3 rail is what most people are familiar with. When I sold my HO and Sn3 and came over to O scale I went with O-27 3 rail because of the ability to downsize and get a nice operating layout built in a fairly small space. I appreciate 2 rail especially Proto 48 because you can really see the detail, and the track-work can reach a fantastic level of detail and realism.

 

One big thing for me though, was the ability in 3 rail to do a reverse loop without the pain and torture of the wiring and gapping required with any two rail system. I really respect the serious modeling aspects of the scale guys, especially at shows like O Scale West.

 

Hey, in a world ruled by video games...we need to keep growing model railroading no matter the scale or prototype.