Do people collect MPC?

Thanks.  So Lionel never originally offered this 027 car with the style frame as shown?  Its the frame from that odd 1970s boxcar I thing.

I collected some MPC / LTI locos just from childhood nostalgia for them but became disappointed by the nylon being used in their drivelines at the time, they run quieter than PW stuff, but the gears crack from age & I wish they would have used brass instead. Last year it seemed like a bunch of them all timed out together & I had gear issues with 3 different locos that had similar problems within a few months of each other. I won't get rid of  them, I like them too much, but it's going to be one problem after another with those engines as the plastic dries out over time.

Mike W.,

I believe the Conrail set you mentioned came out in 1987. Lionel had made two standard O hoppers in a special package before this to go with the scale Hudson. They were #6134 Burlington Northern and #6135 Chicago Northwestern. These cars came out in 1986.

Mike W - Only early MPC 4 wheel cars were the bobber caboose, short gondola and tipping hopper. Set 1280, Kickapoo Valley. Also the 9090 Minimax boxcar.

As PaperTRW pointed out there also was a 4 wheel tender in set 1287. His original post is also gone but I think the consensus is the frame for the 4 wheel cars in the 2014 RTR are new tooling.

Set photos attached.

Hello Railraoded....

I had the same problem with my MPC GP-9 #8250 the middle large white plastic gear always come off the shaft and learned to put it back on but comes off again.  40 years later,( this month, Sept) I purchased a LTI Lionel F-3 ABA set #18117 and this too came with black plastic gears and I knew it won't last so I bought metal gears and installed them.  If given reasonable care of Red and Tacky grease, they will last longer than I will. Installing the metal gears is not a hard job but it does take time doing it. The metal gears are just like the ones used in the postwar #2383 F-3's and a lot of them are still running today even beaten up ones!!!. Now my LTI F-3's are just as good as the postwar F-3's but with better painted shell.

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

Glue works for that.    

hello breezinup...........

No it didn't, my father tried that for last time. He's a engineer for oil companies designing oil pipe lines such as for standard (chevron) and shell, others for 40 years.

The woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

Epoxy worked on the one MPC diesel I had that problem with. Going on 40 years now with he repair still holding.

I've had the idler gears fall off their shafts, I've had the main drive gears strip out, & I've also had a few now with age cracks on the plastic gears that start in the center & go out to the teeth on locos that barely ever ran. Seemed to be dried out plastic that caused it & its not like they were kept in a tin can in the desert, my basement is cool & it's not like they were worn from use, they just cracked. 

  Where do you get direct replacement brass gears for MPC era trains?

Worked for me, too. Have MPC engines going back to the 70s. I've used basic household glue on some, and even that seemed to hold OK. Of course, they weren't being run hundreds and hundreds of hours, but then, none of my engines ever have - I run different ones from time to time!  

Do any MPC PC GG1's still operate with original gears?   I think it was a problem...and after that Lionel stuck with metal gears in the GG1 and FM Trainmaster.    BTW...when was the first FM Trainmaster produced after 1970?

Maybe Lionel can use the 4 wheel frame to give us some Euro Cars for the Euro Loco.

 Both very nice locomotives Mark. I remember when the Silver Shadow was fetching $1000 a few years after its release. I sold mine about 6 years ago and it only brought $160 on the second try at auction. 

Looking closely...I think the new 4 wheel frame is a stretched version of that from 1971 as used on the bobber caboose and Thomas gondolas.

Mine does - it's  beast of a puller too.

The 2-bay ACF Hopper (as found in the 1987 Conrail) set was originally produced for the Boston & Albany Mail Order set of 1986-87, as Jim correctly mentioned above. Those two SKUs were the 6-6134 Burlington Northern and 6-6135 Chicago & North Western ACF 2-bay ACF Hoppers.

I really don't know any great stories about the hopper's creation. I do know that the two Woodsided NYC-style cabooses that debuted at the same time were designed in Michigan, but tooled in China. (I don't know if the hoppers followed suit.) Also, the 3-bay ACF Hopper was originally scheduled to be announced at the same time, but it was delayed until 1988, when it was first used in the 6-11705 Chessie System Unit Train. I think the two SKUs scheduled for 1986 were the 6-6132 Erie Lackawanna and 6-6133 Conrail 3-bay ACF Hoppers.

As I mentioned either earlier in this thread or the other MPC thread, the decision behind choosing the Symington-Wayne trucks might be lost to time. I even tracked-down the original designer and draftsman for the truck, but he didn't have any ideas either. I do know that the early MPC product planners did a LOT of reaching out to railroad equipment suppliers and manufacturers, so perhaps the MPC folks obtained the info on the real truck in that manner. There's very little known about the REAL truck either, other than the fact they saw VERY limited production in 1960's Express Service. The only known trade ads for the real truck date from 1964, seven years prior to MPC first Symington-Wayne model.

Any ideas what happened to the posts? I can't believe they were deleted...

The frame is the same one that's been used on that car (and the 027 boxcar) since 1970. But it appears that they've created a two-wheel bogie arrangement that attaches to the existing frame. Or at least that's what it looks like in the catalog, but that may be just a concept. If the "odd 1970s boxcar" that you're referring to is the 6-9090 MiniMax Car, then no, that frame remains unique.

The Dockside Switcher SKUs and Kickapoo Valley cars from 1972 are some of my favorites, as they represent MPC's first attempt at moving in a new direction. In that regard, they weren't very successful, but remain iconic pieces from the period. Over 15 years ago, I had the opportunity to purchase the hand-made, scratch-built 8200 Dockside Switcher from the 1972 catalog. Needless to say, I jumped at the chance. I'd love to know where the scratch-built Kickapoo cars ended up.

Originally Posted by Mike W.:

See the above. The frame that's shown on the tank car in the 2014 catalog is still the original frame, but with two-wheel trucks instead of four. The bobber caboose frame (subsequently used on Annie, Clarabel and the Troublesome Trucks) is different, and was never used on the 027 tank car or boxcar.

TRW

Thanks for the replies.  I love the Kickapoo switcher as well.  

I don't recall the Silver Shadow ever being that high, certainly not as high as the Big Emma. The B.E. was going for pretty high dollars in its day. They're both still very sharp looking engines running on a layout.

Sellers and some dealers often preyed on enthusiasts' desires to own reportedly "rare" items.  And MPC stuff was caught up in the collector era big time. Unfortunately, I can't name one MPC item -- not one -- that has retained any significant value nowadays.

Some "hot MPC items" in their day that come to mind include the 5712 reefer, JC Penny Wabash bluebird FM trainmaster, the SP black widow FM trainmaster, the SP GS-4 steam locomotive, F3 B-units, as well as several painted aluminum passenger car add-ons (i.e., SP and N&W diners and vista domes).

You can't give these items away nowadays.  Sad when you think about it.

David

quote:

You can't give these items away nowadays.  Sad when you think about it.

The J.C. Penny Wabash FM Trainmaster goes for 2 - 3 times the price of the other modern era FM trainmasters of similar construction, which is still less than the original street price.
I can agree that little to none of the "hot" modern era trains have retained their value.
But you know what they say about instant collectables.

There are people who are collecting MPC, and interest is increasing. Part of that interest is likely generated by the relatively low prices for which this stuff can be purchased.

For me personally, the MPC era were the trains that I drooled over as a kid. Some of the market might swing that way as us 40 year olds seak out those childhood memories. Personally I can't afford PW prices for the better quality items & for my generation, those were our father's trains anyway. I have very little emotional attachment to prewar stuff because tin plate & Standard gauge were just out of touch & out of reach for me & my dad. I have some that were handed down & they're nice, I'll hand those down to my son, but I still have a soft spot for 70's, 80's & 90's Lionel because that was the stuff I wanted at the time when it was new.

Mike W,

In answer to your question pertaining to the first MPC FM's they were #8950 Virginian and #8951 Southern Pacific. Both of these came out in 1979.

Thanks on the Trainmaster info.   I am surprised more people don't enjoy the beauty and pure Lionel uniqueness of the open frame motor found on most MPC items.  To me..just knowing its there is enough for me.  And I was born near the end of the 70's.

For a mere $159/each or so from places like Charlie Ro, as I recall.  

Within months though, once word got out that the SP unit had a reportedly smaller production run than the Virginian, sellers started preying on enthusiasts' desires to purchase something "collectable".  And so the seedier "instant collectable element" of MPC days was born.     Still alive and well today, I suppose.

The more reputable dealers (like Charlie) sold through their stock at normal published pricing, but sellers building their "scheikster" reputations began placing a huge premium on the 8951 SP black widow.  Of course, original post-war FM Trainmaster were pretty pricey at the time as well.  I recall the SP mayhem topping out around $700-$800, whereas the JC Penny Wabash model soared up to $1400-$1500.   

You just knew the pricing shenanigans were about to begin when dealer ads in the magazines would list the word "Call" along side supposedly "hot" items rather than listing the actual price.  

David

I like the hum & purr of the open frame motors. I like clunky e units. I like being able to service them. I like being able to find parts for them. Can motors run smooth & quiet, but they have no soul. I find something comforting in the older electronics. My dad's old ZW's steady hum when it's plugged in & the glow of that incandescent bulb make me feel warm & fuzzy inside. Very reassuring In these tumultuous times... 

  I've also noticed those Hot Run ups on items. I ride the wave & wait for it to trough out.

Well said, an era that still brings back memories to this day.

Art

That about sums up the feelings of conventional control fans in the debate between conventional and command control in general. The conventional folks like the old tech and feel as though the new stuff lacks the "soul" that the old stuff has.

Kinda the same argument made by steam fans in debates about Steam vs Diesel too! 

quote:

Within months though, once word got out that the SP unit had a reportedly smaller production run than the Virginian, sellers started preying on enthusiasts' desires to purchase something "collectable".  And so the seedier "instant collectable element" of MPC days was born.     Still alive and well today, I suppose.

IMHO, the instant collectable scam started well before the SP FM. They started the limited editions in 1973/74 with the Coke set and the Gold Chessie. The street price of the Gold Chessie certainly shot up quickly. Run of the mill Geeps could be had in the $25 price range. I think the Chessie quickly reached $100.
Some people believe that MPC intentionally ran some items short to stimulate the market.

There certainly was a period when many people preordered to get the stuff they wanted without paying the instant collectable premiums. (Plus there was a small preorder discount)

Are they doing it today? We'll see with the build to order stuff.

IMO, he sums up the feelings of folks like me who run conventional or command on toy train layouts. 

Funny thing this got brought up. . Could be reading so many recent MPC posting but I miss having those PW accessories  (coal & log ramps & loaders) on the layout.  

Over the years I replaced most of them with rows of lifeless static buildings.

This year, I'm seriously thinking of bringing back some of that fun.  It won't be that difficult as I never got around to replacing my tubular track with a hirail system.

Joe

Of course, the term "significant value" is practically undefinable. But there are many items from that era that still hold quite a bit of value. To name just a few that come to mind, the Southern F-3 A-B-A nos. 8566, 8567 and 8661 does remarkably well in the market, interestingly, and the Burlington F-3 A-B-A nos. 8054, 8055 and 8062 does very well also. Then there's the Mickey Mouse Express set, still selling for far more than it originally did. Check out values of a no. 9667 Snow White hi-cube boxcar! The no. 9278 Lifesavers tank car still commands high dollars, and many of the booze, beer and tobacco cars sell well. Most of the SP Daylight stuff still does well. The list goes on.

In fact, compared to what they originally sold for, many MPC-era trains still do pretty well in the market.

I had allot of MPC back in the 70's and 80's. It was fine for their times but I always wanted something more scale. So when the scale items came on the market all my mpc had to go. 

I have never looked back, now most of my trains are lionel legacy And having more fun then I should. 

My point is NONE of the former "hot MPC items" can garner anywhere near the price-highs from the "instant collectable era".

Even prices from the list you mentioned can't hold a candle to their former values.  I can still remember seeing a complete Disney train at York decades ago with an asking price tag of $2,500.  Probably can't even sell the set for half that today... and even $1,000 might be pushing it.

Similar phenomenon for the the Snow White boxcar... If you missed it when it first hit the street for about $39-$49, the collector frenzy drove it up to where dealers wouldn't let that boxcar go for a penny under $500.    Today?  An Atlas-O Natty Bo reefer commands much, more than Snow White will fetch these days. 

That's what I'm talking about.  The MPC "collectables" now live in the shadow of a new generation of highly sought-after items, like die-cast ES44's.  In a few years, those too will be replaced by a new wave of "hot items".  And so the pattern repeats itself over and over again.  So why folks chase these moment-in-time-collectables remains a mystery to me.  It's not like they don't know any better.  History is right there if they just look.

David

OK. But that's not what you said. You said "Unfortunately, I can't name one MPC item -- not one -- that has retained any significant value nowadays."    

Healthiest outlook to have.  That just says it all.  We're not saying scale is "better" than MPC... Heck, I'm a relative newbie to Standard Gauge tinplate and enjoying every minute of the ride... and that's about as far as you can get from hi-rail / scale!!! 

For those who have emotional childhood ties to MPC, the timing can't be better.  They should now be able to pick up some great bargains compared to what they would have needed to pay if they purchased those items back in the 80's and 90's -- especially stuff on the secondary market or from dealers who purposely held back stock until street-prices shot up. 

David

Correct. And that's true with many things, obviously. (Anyone ever collect Beany Babies? A gross example!) But some folks seem to blame MPC, and disparage its products, as if it was somehow at fault for the fact that their trains went up in value, and then came down, and therefore, there's something bad about MPC trains. As you say, the fault - if there is any - is with human nature. People who disparage MPC for value fluctuation are shooting the messenger.

>>My point is NONE of the former "hot MPC items" can garner anywhere near the price-highs from the "instant collectable era".<<

May come as a surprise but the fact is a MPC instant collector market never existed.

Prices were driven up by high demand and limited availability.  

And that's it.   

As time went on rabid price speculation decreased as Lionels demise became more and more unlikely while the repetitive nature of the hobby gained traction.

In the end, Mike Wolf drove the final nail into the faux modern era collector market coffin. 

Today, with speculation dead and the hirail market in a malaze, an actual MPC collector market exists.  It may be in its infancy or just another false start..Time will tell. 

As they say, try as they may For Lionel, what goes around, comes around. 

Folks are weary and bored with high prices that just keep on coming and poor workmanship.

Joe 

Great stuff! I was at a show a while back, and they had "scale" layouts with all the new stuff. And then there was a very nice good-sized layout with all the older-style traditional Lionel products - all tubular track with the original-style switches, plenty of the action accessories spread around, "traditional" steam engines and diesels running and a couple of ZWs cooking, and it was wonderful to see. More folks were looking at it than the newer layouts. The modern stuff is great, but there's no denying that seeing a traditional type layout gives a special feeling that a modern, "scale" layout can't duplicate.

Well, I did use the word "retained".  I should have been a bit more explicit in my wording relative to "retained any significant value compared to their former collectors heyday price-points."  My bad. 

David

Fiddlesticks! Nothing bad about it. "I should have been a bit more explicit..." practically defines me! This is good fun talking about this subject.  

Two comments to make...

First, don't tell Lionel that.  A significant amount of their marketing dollars was spent in attempts to convince toy train enthusiasts that what they'd be purchasing would most certainly be "collectable".  What they forgot to tell everyone -- and arguably nobody can accurately predict the future -- was that there'd be a seemingly endless follow-up of product year after year with incremental improvements (i.e., increased detail, better sounds, TMCC, Legacy, etc...) that would essentially obsolete former product.

Secondly, prices were never driven up by high demand and limited availability.  At least not in the truest sense.  For example, I learned the hard way when I took a ride up to NYC (when I lived in Middletown, NJ in the mid 1980's) to visit Madison Hardware.  They were supposedly one of the "few places" who still had the Lionel 5712 woodside reefer, and they were asking $100 for it (which was a LOT of $$$ for a boxcar/reefer back then), because they were "so rare". 

Little did we know that places like Madison Hardware hoarded crates of these cars due to their relationship with Lionel.    So while some items like that weren't readily available to the marketplace at large, some dealers controlled the supposedly "very limited supply".  But you probably won't get too many folks in the business to actually admit on record that those kinds of practices existed.

Same thing is true for stuff like B-units and passenger car add-ons like diners and vista domes.  While it's true they weren't produced in the same quantities as their original 4-car passenger sets, wasn't it always amazing how so many dealers had them available -- albeit at stratospheric prices -- wherever you looked???    One week dealers were completely "sold out", then a few days later they magically found 6 or 7 of these rare items now for sale at 3+ times the original price!!!  Kinda funny how that stuff works, wouldn't you say? 

Is a real MPC collectors market in existence today?  I don't know.  Perhaps... then again, perhaps not.  But for those interested in it, MPC items are available for reasonable bargains... quite possibly for the simple reason that the MPC stuff lives in what I refer to as "the deadly middle ground" of the toy train landscape.

At one end of the spectrum, we have the increased scale realism of today's O-Gauge trains.  And on the complete opposite end of the spectrum is Standard Gauge and O-Gauge tinplate.  Can't get further from scale than you get with tinplate.

And then in "the deadly middle ground" we have Lionel Postwar and MPC.  Postwar may always have an edge over MPC due to the inherent nature of those items being part of the original Lionel Corporation's offerings.  Tough to generalize though, 'cause those who have the strongest connection to Postwar are quickly exiting the scene to life's next journey.

Then again, the number of folks still with us today who actually lived as kids back when Standard Gauge tinplate trains were on store shelves are now well into their 80's and 90's.  And they're certainly not anyone's target demographic anymore.  Yet I'd argue there's a rumbling of a resurgence in Standard Gauge toy trains today by those of us who simply might be growing tired of having "too many" scale trains available.  Think of it as an unexpected response to pure sensory overload. 

Look... make no mistake about it... Standard Gauge was -- and likely will always be  -- a niche-within-a-niche market.  The original stuff is just WAY too unaffordable by all but the most financially blessed, and the newer MTH LCT reproductions are strictly BTO/pre-order.  Not to mention the increased real-estate requirements for Standard Gauge.  So even on a good day, Standard Gauge is more of a special-interest type thing, yet everybody who sees it can relate to its undeniable toy-like charm.

That leaves MPC sitting in what is traditionally "the deadly middle ground" of toy train landscape.  However, the sky-rocketing price-points of stuff at both ends of the landscape (as I've laid it out here) may turn out to be a deterrent to the market growth of those product segments, drawing enthusiasts back into a product class that many had shunned as recently as 5 years ago.

Who could have predicted ANY of this? 

David

quote:

Is a real MPC collectors market in existence today?

I don't think I know what "MPC Collectors Market" means.

The title of this thread was meant to be rhetorical.

There certainly are people collecting MPC.

They may not be looking for the instant collectables, such as the SP FM or the 5712 Woodside reefer discussed earlier in the thread. Instead, they might be looking for the set they had as a child, or dreamed about owning after seeing a Lionel catalog. That is often how collecting starts.