Do Tenders have to be connected to Locos?

Hot Water and a  few others can give better details, but you are going to have the fuel connection, water connection, drawbar, air lines, and if set up for passenger service, steam lines  and possibly signal line for rudimentary communication between conduuctor  and the cab. I don't believe any of these were equipped with any type of quick coupler connctions, a tender wasn't expected to be uncoupled very often, and usually only around the roundhouse and/or backshop. I imagine that it would be a very rare event to uncouple a tender out on the road, away from the shops.

Doug

Unlike model trains, the steam locomotive tender is not an "extra car."  It is is permanently coupled to the locomotive via drawbar. 

To separate locomotive and tender requires a fair amount of labor.  It's not a one man job.

Rusty

To answer the question posted here, yes you need a tender with a steam locomotive.

I have seen an extra tender, or water tanker, added on when the railroad does not have access to water sources nearby or to go longer distances between water towers.

But never a distance of more then a few yards without a tender because of water needs.

Lee Fritz

The exception, Tank Engines.

That's because they have their tender with them.   They're also only good for pretty short runs.

The water tank and coal (or oil) bunkers ARE the tenders for tank engines.  Remove either, and you go nowhere.

The only true exception are fireless cookers as they carry no water or fuel.   However, they must be "charged" periodically with superheated water under pressure from a staionary boiler.  Range and operation are limited by work done and conditions.

Rusty

Super man you are correct in Back to the Future they could have dropped the tender and gone faster, but just for a short period.

Kind of like fighters dropping wing tanks in a dog fight, but you loose your fuel reserve and in the case of a Locomotive that like a F-4, they almost had to refuel after take off:-)  G

Over in Oaks PA near the BJ's there are some old rusty hulks. One of them looks like an 0-4-0 dockside switcher. Anyone else see these engines? Maybe next time I go there I'll take a few photographs.

I've seen them driving by, one day I'll have to stop for a closer look.  As you say, they're pretty far gone.

How could have they dropped the tender quickly? 

Dynamite the drawbar?  Watch out for the schrapnel...

Once the air line between the locomotive and tender was severed, the locomotive brakes would have applied... 

Maybe Doc Brown simply needed another one of his special speed increasing logs.

Really, the climactic train sequence in BTTF III was fun to watch, but the theory of "uncoupling" the tender is about as realistic as a time traveling DeLorean.

Rusty

Tank engine, the one I got to drive back and forth for a half of hour two years back.

 >> Over in Oaks PA near the BJ's there are some old rusty hulks.

http://goo.gl/maps/c2xbv

There's still track there, fire it up and get moving.

Kinda' the point, nothing in the movie was realistic.  But then, what movie really is that realistic.  It's for fun, no sense in trying to read more into it than that.

This question calls to mind - not in a good way - one I spotted a few years ago, wherein

the poster complained about wire tethers on MTH steamers (this was before their wireless)

because they were too obtrusive (true), but primarily because "real steam engines are

not connected to tenders in any way but the drawbar". Whew. Deep knowledge.

Wire tethers approximating the prototypical loco/tender connections were actually a missed modeling opportunity for the manufacturers; I'm also not fond of the wireless thing.

---------

There was also one poster who didn't understand sprung drivers on models "because real

steam engines have no springs". Oh. My. How did he get this far...?

All quotes approximate. 

Yes, they are sprung, how else could they stay on the uneven track?  And they can be a pain to service when you take axles on and off.  I worked on a 1/4 scale Atlantic and we had to take an axle off for service.  I just remember how much of a pain it was to get it back on and to balance with the other drivers since this locomotive the springs were interconnected.

Emperor of the North, The Train, Danger Lights, Silver Streak (Gene Wilder version) and even Tough Guys did a fairly good job of portraying railroading in a realistic manner.

Did these films do it perfectly?  Of course not.  There's dramatic license involved in any movie involving any mode of transport at its core.

Clearly, there are folks out there in Hollywoodland and the general public that don't have any idea of how a steam locomotive is constructed and operates.

Consider the discussion about the impossibility of "uncoupling" the tender in any simple matter as a public service providing some educational value.

Rusty

Here's the Robert Dollar #3 Tank engine along side a couple of other known locomotives...with their required tenders.  Matt

I could say the same about almost any topic that Hollywood portrays in most films.  Don't get me started on aviation based films and how far from reality most of those are.  I've spend a majority of my working life in the aircraft industry, and I could pick apart almost every aircraft based film ever made, but what's the point.  I know the situations depicted are unrealistic, probably a majority of the viewing audience thought they were possible.

Again, I didn't see that as a fatal flaw of this film, only the rivet counters were totally turned off because of the artistic license taken with the locomotive.

When the SP 4449 was coming back from the World's Fair in New Orleans, in the 1980's, the engine did loose its tender near Del Rio TX.  Repairs were made on site.

Gunrunnerjohn: If you want to see REAL flying in a movie, allow me to suggest "Wings", the first movie to win "Best Picture" Oscar.

Re: SP 4449 - Being from New Orleans and attending the Fair then, this is news to me!  What caused it to lose the tender?

The 1927 silent film or the Disney one?

Steam locomotives burn coal (or oil) and boil water (LOTS of water!) to make steam. Where do you suppose they carry the coal (or oil) and the water?

Answer: IN THE TENDER!

You won't get very far without the "fuel tank."

I guess you didn't read any of the Railfan magazines from back in 1984.

The safety plate failed, which helps retain the huge pin that holds the two drawbars between the engine & tender. After some unknown period of time, that huge pin simple fell out, and the engine continued on ahead, while the tender and the entire trailing train went into emergency. We got 4449 stopped about a mile further down the track, then backer her up to within about ten feet of the tender & train. After determining what we all needed to accomplish, we set to work to repair the main fuel oil pipe, and replace the two large water hoses. A passenger on the train who was riding in one of the vestibules with the top/dutch open, happened to see the huge pin fly out from under the train and go into the trackside bushes. Our largest Crewman, Dick Yager, went back with that passenger and eventually found the pin and carried it all the way back forward to the tender. Naturally he was beat for about 30 minutes!

Upon getting everything back together again, and backing 4449 rearwards into her tender again, the fire was relit and steam pressure was slowly raised back to 300 psi. Although that portion of the Southern Pacific main line was single track, west of Del Rio, TX, we never delayed a single SP train, and were back on the move westward after only three hours and fifty minutes! The Superintendent of the San Antonio Division, who was riding the train, was VERY IMPRESSED.

Thus, I can tell you all from first hand experience, as the Fireman, EVERYTHING quits when you loose the tender, especially at 45MPH!

How did you back the locomotive a mile without any fuel or water?

The locomotive will still have pressure for a time, as long as it was caught soon enough that the fire was out, and everything is closed to prevent steam leaving the boiler.  They stay hot for a while, and that's long enough to have steam for moving the engine.

Well you see,,,,,,,a steam locomotive actually operates on,,,,,wait for it,,,,STEAM!!!!

Just because the fire went out, and water could no longer be added back into the boiler, the 300 psi steam pressure was still there. In fact, if we shut off the fire and walked away from her, there would still be about 100 psi steam pressure remaining after 12 to 14 hours, and even after 24 to 36 hours the steam pressure would STILL be about 5 to 10 with enough remaining heat to burn the crap out of ones hands.

So, I guess "everything" doesn't quit when you lose the tender after all.

Sorry, but I still consider loss of air brakes, feed water, fire, air pressure to operate the power reverse gear, and the steam heat line to the train, pretty much everything!

Gunrunner...

You must've been on the high school debate team.

Captain.   I was actually genuinely curious how they managed to move it a mile without the tender.  I was surprised it would go that far.

Maybe the scene in Back To the Future III wasn't so far out after all.

Matt,

It is always important to remember in these types of "discussions/debates" that it is similar to trying to wrestle or catch a pig in the mud, i.e. once you realize that the pig is REALLY ENJOYING IT, half your battle is won! 

Well now, you didn't ask THAT.  The reason the engine went so far was because we no longer had any air brakes. Unlike a diesel, the steam locomotive AND tender is one "braking assembly", so if you separate the engine from the tender, all the air pressure for the brake cylinders simply is exhausted out the open hoses between the engine & tender. 

Our Engineer had to stop the engine by moving the reverse gear into reverse and opening the throttle just a hair. Once we got stopped, we places ballast pieces under all the wheels until we were ready to back up.

The B&O Museum in Baltimore has a rarely seen but rather husky coal fired 0-4-0T they roll out about 1 weekend a year. It was built in 1950 by HK Porter for St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington DC. Later went to Ft. Eustis then Cass before the B&O Museum in 1981. The museum restored it operation in 2002, re-restored it after the roof collapse and usually dusts it off once a year for "steam weekend". 

Actually, I figured the forward part, I'm impressed you still had enough steam to back it up for a mile.  I'd have figured it would have pretty much "shot it's wad" by then.

It's all in good fun! And...that is an interesting perspective.

Not even close. A locomotive with a boiler of that size, doesn't loose steam pressure that quickly. In fact, we still had over 200psi by the time the fire was restarted, after about 3 hours.

Always a learning experience here.  

I get the fact that you'd still have pressure after a spell just sitting, but you must expend it moving the locomotive.  Obviously, there's more energy there than I figured.