Do you think 611 will ever operate again?

No.

Always possible.

I agree SJC it is very likely because in the next five years they will need a large locomotive to keep up with heavy loads and high speeds. Her time will come!

Keep thinking that way sonny, you never know. However the experienced folks with those J class locomotives are getting pretty long in the tooth.

Sad to say but, No. I saw it running back in the 80's and I loved it. Those days are long gone however. I just don't see NS putting the resources into another steam program. Read Hot waters post again---it says it all.

You all have a point! I just think about in the next 5-10 years if the program grows any, that they will need a large locomotive to do the job! do you think that they will just use #1225 or #765? 

I think a MUCH more important question would be, how old is Chairman Wick Moorman (sp), and how long would the current "program" continue in his absence?

Well............... let me think on that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what's the 765...chopped liver?

I'd say handling a 34-car passenger train at 70 mph is a heavy load at high speed. 765 did that MANY times on CSX in the New River Gorge back in the 80's and 90's.

There is money available right now to overhaul the 611. However, until the various warring factions in Roanoke come together and prepare a workable overhaul plan, nothing will happen.

And it takes a LOT of money. The 765 is a fully overhauled and fully operational locomotive. Even so, we spent over $190,000 on her in 2012, just for running repairs and maintenance. Let's see...3,702 miles in 2012 and $190,000 in maintenance and repair costs. That works out to $51.32 per mile! And that does NOT include coal. Add another $17 per mile for the coal. Totals for 2012 = $63.35 per mile.

Owning and operating a steam locomotive is expensive. As Steve Lee, retired Union Pacific Steam Manager once said, "Steam locomotives don't burn oil or coal. They burn money!" Absolutely, 100% correct.

One other thing.  Most people would not care or know what steam engine is point power on the steam train!  Not to take anything away from the various steam groups, but most are ignorant of such things.

And I think NS would want to stay with groups with proven programs, like the Berk just mentioned!

LOL Great point Rich! 

Yeah the 765 goes at a snail's pace! 

I am optimistic that the 611 will be restored to operating condition one day, but why wonder when you have Superpower Lima Steam running right now? The 765 may be considered by some as a "smaller locomotive", but after watching some videos on her especially on the Horseshoe Curve I settled my case.

 Plus the fact that the 765 will be doing public excursions next year!!!!!!! 

would love to see 611 and 1218 running again..saw both of them running threw Erie Pa..stoped on west 18 street to pickup people for rides..got tons of pics of both of them..best on was 611 going across a tressel in my home town of fairview PA.

  Well I can't speak for everybody here, but I am perfectly happy hearing that a certain 2-8-4 from God's railroad is looking at another year of romping around the NS system.

  After seeing a certain engineer get a twinkle in his eye every time I ask him questions about the Berks, maybe a road trip this summer east to the old Cleveland division to see what all the fuss is about is in order?

DV

Absolutely, 100% true.

The general public cannot not tell the difference between the 765, 630, 4501 or 611. Even though the 611 looks very different from those other locomotives, believe me, to the general public they all look the same.

The general public also does not know or care WHICH steam engine is pulling their train. As long as it blows off a little steam, makes a little smoke and goes "Chuff-chuff" when it moves, they're happy.

Hotwater, Care to elaborate on your "No."?

I feel that any time you can get Steam on a train from wherever it may be is a good thing.

If it costs between 50 to 70 dollars per mile to run a steam engine, what does it bring in on a nice revenue paying passenger or proper 60 car freight train? Care to share that little state secret with us?

Staying on the topic of 4-8-4's there is the L class 819 in Pine Bluff Arkansas. She probably won't run again because perhaps the UP has it's hands full and does not have or want another engine on it's rails.

I suggest this.

Instead of trying to horse one railroad or another such as NS or CSX etc to run one engine or another, why not get together, find a set of rails that are not in too bad a shape but have a connection with the existing USA rail network. Take the old steam there and run it. I know someone is trying to raise up a sort of School of Steam in Ohio or some place. That would be a good foundation.

I use the example of Strasburg Railroad because they run on their own rails, haul in and interchange modern revenue freight (You should see that Mollie's Stack talk as she leans into 600 ton) and in general enjoy a good environment to thrive.

I have no preference over one engine or another as long as you have an engine such as the Berk in good condition and able to run. Although I would live to see the Greenbrier run again, I missed that big C&O 4-8-4 back in the 80's and hope to see it again someday.

my two cents.

Hot Water, as usual, is right. 

I don't know that NS even envisions any program that will require the power and speed of a 765, much less a 611 or 1218.

The 630 may be adequate for all NS's future needs, and if it isn't, the 4501 is being upgraded with a Standard Stoker and a Chinese knock-off of a Worthington Feedwater Heater (wish it had had those when I fired it).  When and if it's finished it'll be a better engine than it ever was - and Southern's Ms Mikado was a state-of-the-art 1911 locomotive just as the 630 was a state-of-the-art 1903 engine.  A lot of Ms engines got stokers and FWHs, but 4501 escaped improvement until she was over 100 years old.  The fact that it didn't have such jewelry to maintain might have been why the Kentucky and Tennessee bought her.  They probably never expected her to go more than 15 MPH.

As for Wick Moorman's age, that might be irrelevent; if a modest proram works to NS's advantage, succeeding top managers might think it's worth while.  After all, what killed the program in the 80s was excess.  They tried to do too much.

EdKing

I personally would want to see her out again, but will she?.....I don't know.  There are so many variables that would come into play.  As it is right now the 630 is doing fine and the 4501 will be coming into the program and there is the 765 doing a great job for NS as well, plus she will be back out for NS this year which is great news.    The 611 (to me) is one of those engines that should be operating...and yeah she gets pulled around from time to time by NS but I still don't see it in the cards for the new NS steam program...especially any time soon.  And yes....I would loooove to be wrong.

Norfolk & Western Railway 601, a Class J, 4-8-4, at Columbus Union Station, on Track 5,  ready to depart for Portsmouth.  The photo was taken November 1958 as the N&W steam era was winding down.  Photo by Donald A. Kaiser and friends. 

That's the 601, Ace, not the 611.

Where and when?

EdKing

The Stasburg Railroad was started in a different time, with differerent attitudes, different rules and it's current operations and facilities didn't happen overnight.

Rusty

Ed thats Columbus Union Station November of 58'. 

How about the 611.....

Just take it out there and run it? You make it sound so easy.

Where do we find passengers who will buy tickets to come and ride the train? Where does the passenger train come from? A good passenger coach leases for about $1,000 a day. A first class or dome car is much more.

Who pays for all that? Who is going to pay that $60+ per mile and then some so the operation can make a profit?

There is a whole lot more to running steam than just taking the old steam out there and running it.

No.You are obviously out of touch with reality, concerning large main line steam locomotives in the U.S..

This is supposed to be a forum for fun. There's no need to bash others if the topic doesn't interest you.
 

I would just like to hear some good reason's that it would be possible to return the 611 to service just hypothetically speaking. She hasn't operated in nearly twenty years! What level of restoration would be needed?

Let people discuss that topic if they want to without putting them down. Sometimes dreams come true because peole took the time to brainstorm the ideas.

You keep asking 'em Mr Scott!

One reason that you get some negativity in threads like this is many of you have this over-simplified idea of what it would take to get a steam locomotive running again.

As far as the specific work that would be needed, the 611 would require all the CFR230 work now required (if you don't know what CFR230 is, look it up) along with an overhaul of the appliances and a good look at the running gear. Since it has been out under the pigeons for 20+ years, figure $500,000 to start. One could easily spend $1 million on this locomotive to bring it back to serviceable condition.

OK...we got our million dollars, the engine is all restored and ready to go...now what do we do? Beyond the locomotive itself you need:

1. A railroad that will allow it to run
2. A train...there's another $500,000 if you are going to buy the passenger cars outright
3. A mechanical staff that can keep the engine maintained and operating properly. That's at least two people at $40,000 a year
4. A marketing staff that knows how to promote and market the trains to the general public. That's another two or three people at $40,000 a year
5. A facility for the general public that will be the "station" where the trains depart from. Do we have to build our own? Lease an existing venue? Either way, that's MORE money.
6. Insurance for the operation will add another $80,000 plus per year.

Do you begin to see why some negativity may enter the picture on this subject? Most of you have no idea the amount of money and effort it takes to get something like this started. And to top it all off, the return on investment is zilch, zero, nada. There is no money to be made doing this, unless you are in a very specific situation like the Strasburg Scenic and a few other tourist railroads that have a regular flow of tourists and operate SMALL locomotives that cost a lot less to operate than a locomotive like 611.

You can make a small fortune doing this...if you start with a big one.

Thank You Rich, a good education in hard reality. Maybe, with lots of money and hard work, 611 could run again!

... Since it has been out under the pigeons for 20+ years ...

This fine engine is not kept under cover?? The folks who are interested in preserving the loco might want to do something about that.

$40K a year in marketing?  I better keep my day job!

Jon 

I saw and rode behind both back in the 80s, also rode a train up to Lynchburg that was pulled by a diesel...once we were on the train we couldn't tell if a diesel or steamer was on the front end.

Other than the smell, unless you poked your head out the vestibule and got a face full of cinders and smoke you'd never know.

I do think they ought to fix 611 up to the point where they could fire it and move it back and forth at the museum, just so future generations could see for themselves.

As far as running, from what everyone is saying it would cost $100-150 per mile once you took everything into consideration, that's a lot of tickets they'd have to sell.

I'd rather pay $10-20 to see it steamed up and be able to take photos from a viewing stand without a bunch of other folks getting in the picture.

Better yet, put her in the Smithsonian for all to see.

Since it has been out under the pigeons for 20+ years ...

I know I am wasting my breath here, but the 611 & 1218 are under roof and have been for some time. It took an act of congress to get it done, but they are covered

and have been some time now. It is not an enclosed building, so the pigeons have

access. As far as firing it up and moving the 611, the 611 is SUPPOSED to be moved

forward and backward on a periodic basis, so as not to seize up the running gear.

Now, I will go get the popcorn......................................

It's not a matter of could it be done, that answer is yes....with enough $$$.  It is a matter of will it be done, that answer is maybe...someday...I doubt it but maybe.  Before her first restoration she had sat outside, uncovered for 22 years, and now she atleast has a roof over her.  But you have to think back to the 80's and 90's with the 611.  Back then they were running constantly, if not pulling an excursion train then for a positioning move for the next excursion.  That was some big $$$, plus the impact on their normal operations.  I think NS would have to see a really huge benefit from the 611 in the form of PR as the UP does with 844/3985 to throw big $$$ back at the 611.  But UP operates their steam program much differently then NS did. 

You're going to spend $500,000 to $1 million, just so it can move back and forth at a museum? Sorry, that's not a realistic business plan.

Yes...it will still cost that much to make it run again, no matter where or how you choose to run it.

The "pigeon" comment is a figure of speech. 

Whether they have been under roof or not means very little. It helps keep the paint looking nice so it doesn't streak from the rain, but from a mechanical point of view it does not mean all that much. They have still been OUTSIDE, IN THE WEATHER for 20+ years!

Moving the locomotive back and forth does nothing to replace or renew worn bearings, repair worn lateral motion devices and deal with all the other worn mechanical parts that you guys all seem to forget about. It does help to prevent rust on the rollers, but beyond that moving the locomotive back and forth doesn't save any money on the overhaul.

Firing up a steam locomotive is a little more complicated that throwing in some coal and lighting a match.

At IRM, it would take us 4-5 hours to bring up a cold 1630 for the first run on Saturday, 2-3 hours on Sunday when things were still warm.  Then there's all the routine preparatory work needed to be done before the throttle is cracked.  At the end of the day, there's to work required to put the locomotive to bed.

As Rich said, $500,000 to a million to get the 611 up to servicable condition.  Once operational, you still have to pay for fuel, lubricants, water treatment and possibly higher insurance to even run the thing back an forth for the fans.  And all the maintenance issues still exist. 

Then, there the issue of how many times do you run it back and forth?  Every hour?  Half Hour?  Ten-fifteen minutes?  Until there's enough folks on the reviewing stand?

How about when it's run? Weekends? Saturday only? Sunday only? Once a month? Holidays only?

For the occasional weekend strut up and back for a photo line, I'd wager your $10-$20 dollar photo ticket would probably more like $100-$150.

The economics aren't there for this type of operation.

Rusty

Speaking about lubricants I remember Rich talking about some special grease used on 765 for the grease gun to lubricate the running gear and that the petroleum company that made it had stopped making it. Was a substitute ever found to use for lubrication? I'm pretty sure you can solve all the problems ONLY IF YOU HAD ENOUGH MONEY TO THROW AT IT.

Rusty -

You have to understand that those of us who live out here in the real world can tell the truth until we're blue in the face, and the "pie in the sky" fellows will never get the realities of this type of thing into their heads.  There will always be those who figure that if a piece of iron still exists, that someone with a fat wallet and a thin intellect is just waiting for the opportunity to make it come to life again.

I challenge anyone to say they loved N&W steam any more than I did and do.  I grew up with it; I had my time watching it and riding on and behind it; I was in a situation where I could help in the hostling of it in my home town shop - and I was on the scene when it died.  I rode the 611 the last hundred miles she ran before they put her in the Museum in 1959.  I was on the scene to photogaph K-1 4-8-2 105 when it left the home town on the local passenger train for the last time in 1958; N&W 4-8-2s had been running into home for 42 years, and this was the last one.

I've seen 475 and 611 and 1218 run.  And as glorious as the occasions were (and are, for the 475), when the day is over and the fire was (is) dropped, the machine is there - isolated and alone.  I wanted the 611 and 1218 to go home to a roundhouse full of Ys and As and Js, etc.  That was when it was a great thing. 

Be grateful they're still around, guys.  We were fortunate to have them run in the 1980s.  Enjoy the little Southern guys and the Berks and all the others.  But don't expect someone to bankroll an operation for your benefit.

I feel better, now . . .  But not much . . .

EdKing

No, the cost is prohibitive to restore 611 to running condition and as Rich points out the operating and maintenance cost is enormous.

The Big Berk fundraisers did a tremendous job raising money to restore it and money chasing will have to continue in the future to keep on keeping on.. 

Assuming we could raise money and find a "Sugar daddy" to restore 611, how many can afford, and are willing to pledge and pay, $100-500 annually to maintain an operating and maintenance fund over time.

At one time I could afford major contributions, including for the Berkshire and my favorite the Southern Railway Historical Assoc.[SRHA], but that day has passed due to age and health-related costs.

I love steam as Ed King does. Forumites should be aware that Ed King is Steam Editor of TIES Magazine and deeply knowledgeable regarding Southern and N&W Steam among other pursuits.

Thankfully the N&W "steam studs" were not included in the "funeral trains" that were towed to the scrappers.  

I rode 611 when I was a mere 13 years old for the last time she went down the CNO&TP to Danville in 1994. I would like to hope that in the remainder of my lifetime, I will see her again.

500K-1m is a lot of money, no doubt. It's also half the cost of a single new GEVO or ACE not to mention the potential as a tax deductible contribution for the right railroad CEO/company itself (see 4501). As Rich pointed out towards the beginning of this thread, there are a lot of groups in Roanoke that would need to get their stars aligned –before it could move an inch. I'm a lobbyist for a living - but the political structure of some of these so called railroad preservation/museum groups makes solving the fiscal cliff look easy (see the Big Boy disaster)...

Then, where in the world would you do the work? Irondale is gone. It won't squeeze through the tunnel at TVRM. Perhaps NS could donate a corner of her original birthing room? HA.

Jokingly, I tell myself  the real reason 611 and 1218 are still cold is because Wick is really a “Southern man” at heart, as evidenced by this great photo by my good friend Ron Flanary...Yes, that's Mr. Moorman himself on the back of the famed Lookout Mountain riding behind "Southern 2716" in May, 1982 when he was division engineer on Southern's Appalachia Division .

For the record, I wasn't "bashing" anyone.  But anyone who's been a member here for any length of time can tell you that these threads pop up every so often, and EVERY TIME the answers are the same.  The reasons why 611/1218/4014, etc., will not run again have been hashed to death and then some.  It's kinda like "what's wrong with the CW80?"  Always the same questions, always the same answers.  Idealists ask the question, realists answer it, broken hearts and bickering ensue.

I haven't tried it, but I'm sure a search of those engine numbers will yield the results.

That's all.