If Lionel or MTH move all production back to the USA are they able to move all the tooling from China back to the US of A or does it stay in China? If it stays in China I can't imagine either company ever making the move as it would cost them a fortune for new tooling.
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Not certain, but my understanding is that tooling made in China stays in China. Someone who is doing business with China, or who has done business with the Chinese, will certainly know a whole lot more about it than I do. It may even vary from maker to maker, depending on what was contracted.
I don't have the answer, but a transition might go something like this. Any new tooling would be made and kept in the US, while products from existing tooling would still be made in China. It would be a good plan to ween ourselves from them. Costs money though. Lionel has kind of taken a first step in this process by keeping the old Weaver tooling and production here.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Lionel has kind of taken a first step in this process by keeping the old Weaver tooling and production here.
Not all Weaver products are/were made in the US:
Good Luck getting tooling out of China. One it's there, it's there, previous agreement or not.
Jeff T posted:Good Luck getting tooling out of China. One it's there, it's there, previous agreement or not.
Citation needed.
Sure would be cool if we could see MADE IN USA again on our train boxes..........But from what I'm hearing it's not very likely.........Thanks for your answers guys.
Dwayne B posted:Sure would be cool if we could see MADE IN USA again on our train boxes..........But from what I'm hearing it's not very likely.........Thanks for your answers guys.
Not at all likely that you will see motive power from Lionel, MTH, Atlas, or any other major source, manufactured in the U.S. again. Never say never, but you're probably safe in doing so in this case.
ALL tooling that is in china will never leave the factory unless it closes it's doors. Then you have to fight to get that tooling out of the closed factory. Then it can be moved to a different factory within china if you can find another train factory that can take on the work.
Go to youtube and look under Rapido Trains, Jason will tell you everything you will want to know.
Doesn’t Lionescale say “made in the USA” on it?
My understanding is the Chinese (ultimately the government) almost always own 51% or more of any entity in China, giving the Chinese right of control over tooling.
Matt Makens posted:Doesn’t Lionescale say “made in the USA” on it?
Some rolling stock, acquired from Weaver (tooling).
Matt Makens posted:Doesn’t Lionescale say “made in the USA” on it?
That's exactly what I was referring to. Now Atlas took their share of Weaver over to China, so it's probably stuck there.
There's been a lot of past forum discussion about this.
The essential answer is that tooling residing in China stays in China. That's not just a business decision....it's a governmental policy decision. It's how they guard against competition, control the market.
I was once told of a hobby manufacturer that tried reversing their own decision to produce in China, and demanded the return of their tooling. The tooling left the production facility, all right. But it was never seen again. Message received. And how does one say 'Bazinga!' in Mandarin???
It even affects the after-sales parts situation. China policy is very reluctant to sell parts for items that they have built complete. They have the parts tooling, of course. To enable repairs it seems logical to us to have them supply the parts. But, their perspective is that the shipping of parts potentially enables someone else to build complete assemblies in competition with them. To work around this some U.S. companies simply procure for their service department additional complete products which are then cannibalized to obtain parts for repair. (Mercy! Think of the carnage!)
And, yes, a change of sourcing strategies on existing product is going to be VERY expensive if China is currently in the proverbial 'catbird seat'. Want to shift gears? Then decide at some point that new models requiring new tooling will be made under the new strategy....and be prepared to face a wrathful premium in any further production from China-held tooling. And that's a double 'ouch' from a business standpoint. The profit margins are improved all around when tooling is used for extended, repeated production runs. Tooling on the shelf is making absolutely no money whatsoever.....zip, nada. Tooling that is used beyond its ROI (return on investment) life is making money for everyone in the daisy chain.....if there's a market for the product, of course. And variations in paint/lettering are cheap, cheap, cheap.....relatively. Re-making that old tooling just to force a different sourcing strategy is not only risky, it's more often dumb.....period.
The Chinese are very astute and watchful. As gracious as they seem to have your business, they fully understand economic competition in a global market. The social media would probably call the original handshake "friending". The Chinese would not call your suspicious steps/requests of divorce "unfriending", however. Rather, they'd call it, pure and simple,..."war".
The media keeps us well aware of the political games regarding this, but not necessarily well educated about the inherent business policies that result in frustration for all of us. Understandable....the eyes tend to glaze over while listening. It wouldn't play well in Peoria.
We've made our bed. Now we must lie in it.
Most have it right.......made in China stays in China.......you get the Chinese govt as a partner like it or not. If you want to know more than what should be covered in a toy train forum......check out a book 'The 100 year Marathon'. It will tell you about the plan, not a secret one, China has in place.
I was part of a team that built two manufacturing plants in China for a Fortune 50 company. Trust me when I say, those tools over there will never see US shores.
If you have never gone through the process, it's more than difficult to explain.
My experience on getting things out of China varies by the company. In the electronics space, test fixtures and tooling get moved around quite a bit. We have moved items back to the US, moved some from China to Thailand. It depends on the company you are working with.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Matt Makens posted:Doesn’t Lionescale say “made in the USA” on it?
That's exactly what I was referring to. Now Atlas took their share of Weaver over to China, so it's probably stuck there.
NO! Let's get the facts straight. Weaver sold Atlas O the tooling for items already produced in China such as the car emergency gondola, the ALCo RS11 tooling, the VO1000, etc.
Lionel purchased the tooling already here in the USA and moved it to North Carolina. Most of that tooling was the freight cars in Weaver Ultra Line plus the RS3 and the GP38. I am not sure of the U25b.
Jeff T posted:If you have never gone through the process, it's more than difficult to explain.
Doing so would make a good movie.....bribes, exchanges in the middle of the night, 3rd party connections.......
I know tooling sent to Romania is stuck in Romania, as in Lionel milk cars.
Here in S Land, one of the largest producer of S scale trains is American Models based here in Walled Lake, Michigan. The owner owned all of the tooling. Years ago in a cost cutting move, he moved production to China. After a few years, the arrangement wasn't working, and he tried to get his tooling back. After paying what he called a ransom, most of it came back here. Molding now gets done by a local plastic injection facility and die cast items are also done here. Most decoration is done in house, but once in a while the more complicated liveries are done oversea. At least he still has control over basic production. As a fortunate consequence, he not only controls production, but also stocks parts for everything and sells them reasonably. Even undecorated body shells are available! But in his case, the tooling was his to begin with.
They (Lionel, MTH, etc,) made a pact with the devil!
superwarp1 posted:I know tooling sent to Romania is stuck in Romania, as in Lionel milk cars.
...and the rotary bathtub gondolas 
dkdkrd posted:There's been a lot of past forum discussion about this.
The essential answer is that tooling residing in China stays in China. That's not just a business decision....it's a governmental policy decision. It's how they guard against competition, control the market.
I was once told of a hobby manufacturer that tried reversing their own decision to produce in China, and demanded the return of their tooling. The tooling left the production facility, all right. But it was never seen again. Message received. And how does one say 'Bazinga!' in Mandarin???
It even affects the after-sales parts situation. China policy is very reluctant to sell parts for items that they have built complete. They have the parts tooling, of course. To enable repairs it seems logical to us to have them supply the parts. But, their perspective is that the shipping of parts potentially enables someone else to build complete assemblies in competition with them. To work around this some U.S. companies simply procure for their service department additional complete products which are then cannibalized to obtain parts for repair. (Mercy! Think of the carnage!)
And, yes, a change of sourcing strategies on existing product is going to be VERY expensive if China is currently in the proverbial 'catbird seat'. Want to shift gears? Then decide at some point that new models requiring new tooling will be made under the new strategy....and be prepared to face a wrathful premium in any further production from China-held tooling. And that's a double 'ouch' from a business standpoint. The profit margins are improved all around when tooling is used for extended, repeated production runs. Tooling on the shelf is making absolutely no money whatsoever.....zip, nada. Tooling that is used beyond its ROI (return on investment) life is making money for everyone in the daisy chain.....if there's a market for the product, of course. And variations in paint/lettering are cheap, cheap, cheap.....relatively. Re-making that old tooling just to force a different sourcing strategy is not only risky, it's more often dumb.....period.
The Chinese are very astute and watchful. As gracious as they seem to have your business, they fully understand economic competition in a global market. The social media would probably call the original handshake "friending". The Chinese would not call your suspicious steps/requests of divorce "unfriending", however. Rather, they'd call it, pure and simple,..."war".
The media keeps us well aware of the political games regarding this, but not necessarily well educated about the inherent business policies that result in frustration for all of us. Understandable....the eyes tend to glaze over while listening. It wouldn't play well in Peoria.
We've made our bed. Now we must lie in it.
Regarding the spare parts issues, I know Lionel keeps some extra high end engines and uses them for spare parts. Reason I know this, I had a return about 2 years ago, and was told there would be a little delay in getting the item fixed because they had not yet broken down the extra engines for parts yet.
ed h posted: I had a return about 2 years ago, and was told there would be a little delay in getting the item fixed because they had not yet broken down the extra engines for parts yet.
Now there's a solid business model. That's the scariest thing I've read in this thread.
prrhorseshoecurve posted:Big_Boy_4005 posted:Matt Makens posted:Doesn’t Lionescale say “made in the USA” on it?
That's exactly what I was referring to. Now Atlas took their share of Weaver over to China, so it's probably stuck there.
NO! Let's get the facts straight. Weaver sold Atlas O the tooling for items already produced in China such as the car emergency gondola, the ALCo RS11 tooling, the VO1000, etc.
Lionel purchased the tooling already here in the USA and moved it to North Carolina. Most of that tooling was the freight cars in Weaver Ultra Line plus the RS3 and the GP38. I am not sure of the U25b.
Sorry, my mistake. I always assumed that Weaver was 100% US. That actually makes sense as to why the various pieces were split up the way they were.
Jeff T posted:ed h posted: I had a return about 2 years ago, and was told there would be a little delay in getting the item fixed because they had not yet broken down the extra engines for parts yet.Now there's a solid business model. That's the scariest thing I've read in this thread.
That business model dates back to when Lionel service & parts were located in Ohio. I've had to wait for a replacement part as long as 6 months. Engines slated for disassembly usually arrive after the main shipment and then it takes months to disassemble and catalog each part of the engine for resale or warranty replacement.. And when they're gone they're gone until another run of that exact engine..
It suggests Lionel does not own the rights to the tooling but long term leases the plans & tooling. If they did own the rights I would think there would be nothing stopping marketing companies like Lionel from making replacement parts here in America..
JC642 posted:Jeff T posted:ed h posted: I had a return about 2 years ago, and was told there would be a little delay in getting the item fixed because they had not yet broken down the extra engines for parts yet.Now there's a solid business model. That's the scariest thing I've read in this thread.
That business model dates back to when Lionel service & parts were located in Ohio. I've had to wait for a replacement part as long as 6 months. Engines slated for disassembly usually arrive after the main shipment and then it takes months to disassemble and catalog each part of the engine for resale or warranty replacement.. And when they're gone they're gone until another run of that exact engine..
It suggests Lionel does not own the rights to the tooling but long term leases the plans & tooling. If they did own the rights I would think there would be nothing stopping marketing companies like Lionel from making replacement parts here in America..
And some spend thousands of dollars on goods with potentially no replacement parts in the pipeline. My desk can't afford such expensive paperweights!
PRRronbh posted:They (Lionel, MTH, etc,) made a pact with the devil!
Well, it's the only show in town.
"Critical mass" is an important concept in many things, and most consumer product manufacturing resources (talent, factories, engineering facilities, labor force, management force, blah, blah) left town (stuff) or became industrially dysfunctional (labor/management) some time ago. It cannot come back short of a violent sea-change in world arrangements. Not necessarily armed conflict, but nothing you want to live through. If then, even.
It's their turn; partly the West - especially the US - gave its birthright away, and partly it's...just their turn. They are educated, literate, proud, energetic, young and hungry - and huge. The US is none of those things, and, culturally, is blissfully unaware of how it got to be "great" in the first place.
The US lets things go; the Chinese (and others) do not. They're right.
The ethical and moral values that we have here do not apply to in Communist China. The Chinese would never move any tooling back to the USA regardless of where it was made. From what I understand all of the P/W, MPC , Williams, Flyer, MTH , K-Line, Atlas, Menards, Right of Way, and Lionel LLC tooling and machinery was either moved or manufactured there in addition to all new Lionel tooling. Kiss it all goodbye. Fortunately there is still a bunch of American made trains still on the market at great prices.
Are you kidding! China is a black hole, everything that has gone over there, never comes back, let alone tooling the Chinese made. Doubt me, ask both IHC and S Helper both of which are gone now thanks to China. MTH claims to have control of the S Helper tooling, but MTH isn't producing much of anything S.
So to put it in a nutshell.........We will see MADE IN CHINA on all our Lionel and MTH trains till the end of time.
Dwayne B posted:So to put it in a nutshell.........We will see MADE IN CHINA on all our Lionel and MTH trains till the end of time.
My real job was a analyst for a huge bank.....glad I do not have to make a call on what will happen with China.
There is a glimmer of hope. A new company in the plastic model field is engineering, cutting tooling, manufacturing 100% in California......a tough state to start with. Plastic models are not model trains with all their electronics.....but I see it as baby steps. Made in USA
ed h posted:dkdkrd posted:There's been a lot of past forum discussion about this.
The essential answer is that tooling residing in China stays in China. That's not just a business decision....it's a governmental policy decision. It's how they guard against competition, control the market.
I was once told of a hobby manufacturer that tried reversing their own decision to produce in China, and demanded the return of their tooling. The tooling left the production facility, all right. But it was never seen again. Message received. And how does one say 'Bazinga!' in Mandarin???
It even affects the after-sales parts situation. China policy is very reluctant to sell parts for items that they have built complete. They have the parts tooling, of course. To enable repairs it seems logical to us to have them supply the parts. But, their perspective is that the shipping of parts potentially enables someone else to build complete assemblies in competition with them. To work around this some U.S. companies simply procure for their service department additional complete products which are then cannibalized to obtain parts for repair. (Mercy! Think of the carnage!)
And, yes, a change of sourcing strategies on existing product is going to be VERY expensive if China is currently in the proverbial 'catbird seat'. Want to shift gears? Then decide at some point that new models requiring new tooling will be made under the new strategy....and be prepared to face a wrathful premium in any further production from China-held tooling. And that's a double 'ouch' from a business standpoint. The profit margins are improved all around when tooling is used for extended, repeated production runs. Tooling on the shelf is making absolutely no money whatsoever.....zip, nada. Tooling that is used beyond its ROI (return on investment) life is making money for everyone in the daisy chain.....if there's a market for the product, of course. And variations in paint/lettering are cheap, cheap, cheap.....relatively. Re-making that old tooling just to force a different sourcing strategy is not only risky, it's more often dumb.....period.
The Chinese are very astute and watchful. As gracious as they seem to have your business, they fully understand economic competition in a global market. The social media would probably call the original handshake "friending". The Chinese would not call your suspicious steps/requests of divorce "unfriending", however. Rather, they'd call it, pure and simple,..."war".
The media keeps us well aware of the political games regarding this, but not necessarily well educated about the inherent business policies that result in frustration for all of us. Understandable....the eyes tend to glaze over while listening. It wouldn't play well in Peoria.
We've made our bed. Now we must lie in it.
Regarding the spare parts issues, I know Lionel keeps some extra high end engines and uses them for spare parts. Reason I know this, I had a return about 2 years ago, and was told there would be a little delay in getting the item fixed because they had not yet broken down the extra engines for parts yet.
Yes. China mfg don't sell parts. They sell complete units. So if an impoter wants parts they purchase additional units and break them down to each individual part.
That Rapido train guy, BLI, and a few others have pulled back the curtains on China. Bring it home guys! You can do it! Nothing like seeing 2000.00 trains being made by folks making 2 dollars a day. That's one of the reasons that the workers hate us. Here we have grown men playing with toys. There they work day in and day out to survive. Unreal what I have seen and heard about factories over there. I have customers that show me pictures of them. Yall don't know filth and bad conditions until you see that place. Im glad I have never been there and will never feel the need to go there. And as BLI and people who trade over there note there are many factories that are closing down. Because of our current trade policy with them. They hate us.
Jim
Jim,
Do agree with most of your comments but what have "you seen and heard" about the factories over there?
It appears you have not visited so perhaps you could share "pictures" from your customers"?
I currently deal with China but in a different environment but essentially agree with most of your comments .
Regards,
prrhorseshoecurve posted:Big_Boy_4005 posted:Matt Makens posted:Doesn’t Lionescale say “made in the USA” on it?
That's exactly what I was referring to. Now Atlas took their share of Weaver over to China, so it's probably stuck there.
NO! Let's get the facts straight. Weaver sold Atlas O the tooling for items already produced in China such as the car emergency gondola, the ALCo RS11 tooling, the VO1000, etc.
Lionel purchased the tooling already here in the USA and moved it to North Carolina. Most of that tooling was the freight cars in Weaver Ultra Line plus the RS3 and the GP38. I am not sure of the U25b.
Almost right. The old USA Weaver tooling is at a factory in Pennsylvania, which ships the molded parts to North Carolina, where Lionel paints and assembles them using trucks made in China.
Bart1 posted:Jim,
Do agree with most of your comments but what have "you seen and heard" about the factories over there?
It appears you have not visited so perhaps you could share "pictures" from your customers"?
I currently deal with China but in a different environment but essentially agree with most of your comments .
Regards,
Bart I dont have the pictures but a customer of ours showed me the Ford plant in china. The restrooms were just holes in the floor. No sinks, no flushing, no nothing. The cafeteria is right next to the restroom. They have to have security to go in and out of the buildings. And are not allowed to deal with the workers. Youtube has a video of the Ford plant building what appears to be the 3 lug Chinese focus. They still put them together by hand. A car rolls up on the line. 4 guys run up with wheels/tires.. 4 more guys run up with impact wrenches and runs the lugs on. Here that is all automated. They note the labor rate is so low there that it is cheaper to pay humans to do the work than to automate. I have another customer who has a son that is/was over there working with factories. Said they are closing factories all over. His son is home now because they closed the factories he was dealing with. So I did some looking and found Rapido and BLI backing up those claims. Along with many others. Its really sad.
China has played the game very well. If they and other countries quit sending things to the US. Society would collapse. Because nobody here is set up to produce anything anymore. And if they are they couldn't produce the quantity needed to fill orders. Clothes, shoes, hats, belts, socks, underwear, car parts, tires, glass, auto glass! Its endless!
Jim
Edit. Went to youtube. Seems to be hundreds of videos of Chinese factories.. Closing factories.. And the Ford factory.
Look, let's be honest about this whole thing. As bottom-line cheap as so many in this hobby are today, only a relative handful (in any gauge or scale) would be willing to pay for what a top-to-bottom U.S.-made locomotive would cost. Or look at it another way: As costly as many top-of-the-line made-offshore locomotives already are today, just imagine what that same item would cost if made in the U.S. It is what it is folks, and the days of manufacturing toy trains in this country, with few exceptions, are over. We just have to adapt and accept (or not).
Allan Miller posted:Look, let's be honest about this whole thing. As bottom-line cheap as so many in this hobby are today, only a relative handful (in any gauge or scale) would be willing to pay for what a top-to-bottom U.S.-made locomotive would cost. Or look at it another way: As costly as many top-of-the-line made-offshore locomotives already are today, just imagine what that same item would cost if made in the U.S. It is what it is folks, and the days of manufacturing toy trains in this country, with few exceptions, are over. We just have to adapt and accept (or not).
Well said sir! As I have said many times in forums and Facebook. You have a vocal chorus of folks complaining about Chinese products! Which is mostly the same vocal chorus of folks complaining about the cost of the "somewhat" made in the USA products! I will hold out on hoping for change. Although is seems doubtful ...
Jim
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