Dynamic brake & slack.

LOCOMOTION posted:

Why would you be backing up a heavy train for 10 miles?

That may be the 64 thousand dollar question!

 A sight glass is mounted on the governor on older EMD units.   The oil level should be between the two lines on the sightglass.  I have used engine lube oil to fill them and keep from tripping the low oil button.

I don't know what THAT has to do with the dynamic brake subject here, but anyway putting "used engine oil" into the governor would have been a sure way to gum up the complete inside workings of the governor!

 LOCOMOTION 

I answered 2 questions in my  1 post.  If you are out in the middle of no where you have to make use of what is available to keep things runnning.  So lube oil is the. Answer inn case of an emergency.  I then note on the work report when I reach the next terminal.  LOCOMOTION o

LOCOMOTION posted:

I answered 2 questions in my  1 post.  If you are out in the middle of no where you have to make use of what is available to keep things runnning.  So lube oil is the. Answer inn case of an emergency.  I then note on the work report when I reach the next terminal.  LOCOMOTION o

Well, OK. However, the "low oil" button on the governor has NOTHING to do with the oil level inside the governor. The "low oil" button, actually indicates low oil pressure in the diesel engine, which shuts the engine down and illuminates the "low oil pressure" light on the engine control panel in the cab. Low oil level inside the governor may cause engine hunting, but would not cause the engine to shut down.

The train he was on was a No-fitter and the train he was meeting was as well. The dispatcher instructed him to shove back 10 miles. 

Kelly Anderson posted:

With power on both ends, they could have sawed by that (at least if they had enough crew on board to do so). 

If both trains were "too long", how would sawing by, have been possible?

otek320 posted:

The train he was on was a No-fitter and the train he was meeting was as well. The dispatcher instructed him to shove back 10 miles. 

Sounds to me like incompetent dispatching. Making a 10 mile backup move with a loaded, 10,000 ton train in undulating territory is just nuts. And if both trains don't fit in the siding, you've got to do the old double-saw by maneuver. That's always a fun move.

What happened that triggered the investigation?

OGR Webmaster posted:

otek320 posted:

The train he was on was a No-fitter and the train he was meeting was as well. The dispatcher instructed him to shove back 10 miles. 

Sounds to me like incompetent dispatching. Making a 10 mile backup move with a loaded, 10,000 ton train in undulating territory is just nuts. And if both trains don't fit in the siding, you've got to do the old double-saw by maneuver. That's always a fun move.

What happened that triggered the investigation?

Walk proud Rich! 

Folks are coming to OGR for expert witnesses for RVDs.  

The Old  Double saw by move.... It was  a pain with a full crew and caboose. I can't imagine doing it with only engineman/ Conductor trains....  Backing up the 10. 000 ton train  as  nuts as it may be may  the fastest move. Drop the Conductor off on the fly until he reaches the  trailing  unit. stop and back up. Most experienced engineman    know the road blind folded  and can probably handle the back up move safely. By the time one changes ends  the move could be 1/2 way  completed.  I worked a ore train for years with some pretty  dam good engineman.

 CN Express trains running   north and eventually west  out of Toronto were always over siding  capacity  (11.000 feet plus). Every now and then a southbound/ eastbound  would also be  over siding capacity .  By the time the crews get their work orders and figure out how to get by each other it was usually a 2 hour delay...Sometimes a small back track would save the day even if only held a few cars.

What happened??

"Right now, you have not said what rules the Engineer is charged with violating,"

That is what I would like to know.

I would like to add that when we had pushers on a coal train and engine problems occurred (within the first twelve miles or so outside of Roanoke) that made it impossible to get over the mountain and we would need to back into the terminal to swap out power, the head end would knock his end down and the pusher engineer would set his end up as lead so that he could control the train back into the terminal.

2 head end  crews  right  Jim and not DPU units?    How much tonnage were you handling?

Gregg posted:

 can the engineer place the fence up, dyno's on the rear and shoving from the HE in order to bunch slack?

What does that mean?  fence up? 

Putting the fence up means you can control the head end power seperately from the middle or rear end power. So yes you can shove on the train with the rear end power to bunch the slack up.

Thanks LAIDOFFSICK.

Gregg posted:

2 head end  crews  right  Jim and not DPU units?    How much tonnage were you handling?

 

3 Hi-ads on the head end 2 Hi-ads on the rear 14,750 was the tonnage rating. Of course tonnage varied with the shipment and the types of units used (conventional SD40's were limited to 2150 tons/unit), but, we normally ran anywhere from 90 -110 loads of coal or grain.

I was assuming that the poster who asked about the 10 mile reverse movement was a union representative and not an attorney, but I never did hear from him, and am still curious about the complete facts of this.  There has to be a better solution than a 10-mile reverse movement in severe undulating territory.  Trust me, there's a back story to this.  And, as to why the Engineer has been notified that there will be a formal investigation, that means he has been charged with possibly violating rules, so:

1. What happened that should not have happened?
2. Why does the railroad believe that the Engineer is responsible for that?
3. Did anyone else have some responsibility?
4. How did this situation develop so that this heavy train passed the last siding capable of holding it before its movement was stopped?

A railroad formal investigation is a hearing to develop facts and place responsibility, if any, for violating rules and instructions.  I've held a lot of them and been a witness at others.  I'd have been glad to talk with the union representative, and help this Engineer if he's being made the the "goat" in an embarrassing situation.  If, however, he is a difficult or non-compliant employee with a bad record, then the facts should bear out an appropriate remedy for his responsibility. I always held fair investigations, sometimes exonerating the employee(s) charged, and I hope this Engineer gets a fair one.

Speaking of investigations.....  I have one next week, but I was just "attached" to the crew as a utility employee. The "incident" happened in Jan and we still haven't had it. 

Ok fellas, here's the facts. East bound grain train DPU'd, departed El Paso Tx with 109 loaded cars. 2x2 1.2HP. In route, corridor manager requested the train to pick up 2 more units from Desert siding. They departed Desert enroute to Vaughn,Nm. They were suppose to meet a train at Carrizozo. It was a HOT UPS Ztrain. High priority. The Z train had engine trouble at Coyote siding on the main between switches. 3 hour delay. The new relieving dispatcher decided to move the Grain train from Carrizozo to Coyote and go around the Z. This stretch of track has severe hog-backs. The new dispatcher was unaware of the 2 unit pick up or the new train lenght. By the time they figured out the situation, it was too late. Two trains, both no fitters. They then intructed the grain train to shove back to Carrizozo. While the train was shoving back, they derailed at a crossing. They charged the engineer with train handling. The engineer claims he had the fence up/dyno's on the rear, around notch 3, and power on the head end shoving with 3/4 throttle. The company claims he couldnt have been in dyno's on the rear, and power on HE. They claim the software doesnt allow. They say he should have had a minimum set under the train in order to controlled slack. The downloads they provided were clearly not the complete downloads showing what the remotes were doing. The investigation was dismissed yesterday after 5 days of testimony. We lucked out due to a simple procedural error in the filling of charges. The engineer was reinstated w/ back pay. 

For the record, it is possible to fence the remote and shove from the head end. I got on a train this afternoon with a manager and tested the theory. Works like a charm if your going to shove long distance. 

With the fence up, place your reverser backwards. On the dp menu, select braking. Then press execute.  Increase your braking effort to notch 3. You will not see tractive effort on the DPU screen until you begin shoving with the head end. As you generate shoving force, the amperage increases. Avoid shoving with more force then necessary.

otek320 posted:

For the record, it is possible to fence the remote and shove from the head end. I got on a train this afternoon with a manager and tested the theory. Works like a charm if your going to shove long distance. 

I believe I indicated that in my explanation, from two days ago, above. Obviously you were dealing with a very knowledgable & experienced Engineer, as well as misinformed management personnel.

Thanks for the update....  Railway was tied up pretty good on that day over a  miscommunication...

I'm still wondering if only 2 units made the difference of fitting in the siding or not could the trains still have passed each other? Could there have been enough room between the signal lights and actually switch to  squeeze in a couple more car lengths. 

Anyway didn't happen.

Off topic  

Do crews still get paid by the mile?    Ex. . If the away from home terminal is 200 miles away and the speed is 50 per the crew gets paid for 200 miles (plus trimmings)  whether it take 4 hours or 12 hours.  

Zig  zagging , backing up, doubling   or sitting in the siding  is not making money the easy way at 50 per.

When I retired in 2009 the BNSF had just gone to "Trip Rates". Instead of getting paid by the mile and getting various arbitrary payments such as Initial Terminal Delay, Final Terminal Delay, etc that set a Trip Rate for each route. The trip rate for a particular route was based upon the total amount paid for a year for all crews on that particular run divided by the total number of crew starts to get an  "average" trip rate figure. 

"Trip Rates", same on the NS.

When I first got promoted on the Santa Fe, they used "RCE" instead of DP. Same idea, older version. On the old Middle Division, we used it quite a bit on grain trains. They liked to make the 120 car trains, and put the RCE remotes behind line 90. Management insisted we use "independent motoring" rather than "MU" and operate the remotes separately. There were a lot of break in two with those. An especially bad spot was on the 3rd district westbound, leaving Mulvane, KS. They ran "Wichita Turns" out of Ark City all the time. You'd go from Ark City to Wichita ligh engine, double your train together, cut up the power and put two on the rear end, and three on the point, get them conditioned, air tested, and go. But that spot at Mulvane caused a lot of break in twos. Of course after at least two versions of that old "Locotrol" system, true DP came into existence. Most of the time the DP remotes are placed on the tail end of the train, and for me it really seemed to work out great with that placement, whether it was a grain, coal or big stack train. Very reliable equipment. 99% of the time, I left them sync'd, or no fence, and never had a break in two with any of them. (RCE either for that matter)