DZ-2500 Command Wiring.

So they use the opto-isolator to jump over the TMCC signal and avoid disrupting it?

GRJ-

I've done the full rounds with the DZ-2500 using both the DZ-2001 for data wire and then the CSM2 for data wire.  Turns out both of those are interchangeable serial signals.  Also, make sure if you use the DZ-2001 that you use the latest version (give Dennis a call).  The DZ-2001D is the one that I'm using and its flawless.  Also, best to ask Dennis to put the latest firmware on your DZ-2500's especially if you think you've got some of the very early ones.  There's another thing regarding the hardware version of the DZ-2500.  Bottom line, latest firmware and hardware give best results.

There's another thread that you should read through that has a bunch more details.  Happy to chat with you if you'd really like to hear all the ins and outs of wiring/operating these things.  I've got wiring instructions documented as well to speed up the array of wires involved including the lead rail powering for short locomotives through the switch (requires a DZ-1008 relay).

https://ogrforum.com/...2500-switch-machines

The DZ Breakout board (sold by Lionel) also has some circuitry protection for the DZ-2500 to keep stray shorts from frying your switch machines.  Take a look.

Tim

@BillYo414 posted:

So they use the opto-isolator to jump over the TMCC signal and avoid disrupting it?

The opto-isolator is used to isolate the ground reference for the serial data from the track outside rail.  The track outside rail and the ground on the serial data are NOT the same, connecting them together will kill the TMCC track signal.

@LionelAG posted:

GRJ-

I've done the full rounds with the DZ-2500 using both the DZ-2001 for data wire and then the CSM2 for data wire.  Turns out both of those are interchangeable serial signals.  Also, make sure if you use the DZ-2001 that you use the latest version (give Dennis a call).  The DZ-2001D is the one that I'm using and its flawless.  Also, best to ask Dennis to put the latest firmware on your DZ-2500's especially if you think you've got some of the very early ones.  There's another thing regarding the hardware version of the DZ-2500.  Bottom line, latest firmware and hardware give best results.

There's another thread that you should read through that has a bunch more details.  Happy to chat with you if you'd really like to hear all the ins and outs of wiring/operating these things.  I've got wiring instructions documented as well to speed up the array of wires involved including the lead rail powering for short locomotives through the switch (requires a DZ-1008 relay).

https://ogrforum.com/...2500-switch-machines

The DZ Breakout board (sold by Lionel) also has some circuitry protection for the DZ-2500 to keep stray shorts from frying your switch machines.  Take a look.

Tim

Tim, I bought the DZ-2001 from Ross, I'm guessing they have fairly recent stock on this stuff, I'm sure they ship a ton of it.  There doesn't seem to be any version on the actual board, the package says DZ-2001L, that seems to be pretty recent.  There's really not much on the DZ-2001m a 5V P/S circuit, the opto-iolator, and a drive transistor or FET for the signal.  A couple of resistors to tie it all together.  Interesting, mine has a 1K 1/8W resistor tacked on the back.

So far I only have 24 switches, hopefully they won't be too much of a headache.  I have more switch machines as each double slip-switch has two, and the 4-way yard switches have three each.

I looked at the DZ Breakout board, but I don't know if I want to sink more hundreds into the switch control just yet.

I think you’re fine with the version of 2001 you have.  Dennis is great at servicing his product as I’m sure you’re aware .

Yep, no problems there.  I see the DZ-2500 breakout board is out of stock until at least March, so no hurry on making that decision.

I have a had a lot of the first generation of the DZ2500 fail over the years and Dennis swaps them out no question ask. I forget how to tell the defective version from the improved version.  The underside PC board either has silver colored traces or copper traces.  Hopefully someone knows and can chime in.

It’s all here.

https://ogrforum.com/...2500-switch-machines

I think I follow now. Thanks!

If you have your switches set up for non derailing, Dennis recommends using a diode to help with some spike issue.  He emailed me the reason, if you need that let me know.

tony

Yes, please include the non-derail note from Dennis.  I wonder if Jon Zahornacky incorporated that into the DZ breakout board from Lionel?

Here is the note.

This is my set-up for testing and programming DZ-2500's for TMCC:

• Command Base
• DZ-2001 Data Wire Driver
• CAB-1 remote
• K-Line PowerChief 120F - use the 15VAC taps to power the DZ-2001
• Z-Stuff instruction sheet
• Ross Custom O72 RH switch with DZ-2500c and DZ-2502P pushbutton

George

Thanks all.   I see the diodes on Lionel's board, doubtless for this issue.  I saved that note.

I'm thinking of getting the Lionel boards, but I'll have to wait.  I could also make some boards to do the same thing.

I have about 25 DZ-2500s so far on my layout - longest run right now is about 50' from driver. I originally tried to use the DZ-2001 data driver, and it worked great. I connected the power wires of the DZ-2001 to the same RW transformer supplying power to the DZ-2500s, and the common was connected into my central ground hub where the grounds of all the transformers are connected together. I never fully reversed engineered the DZ-2001, but I believe the optical isolated feeds the RS232 driver, and the RS232 driver is powered by the DZ-2001's Red/Black power wires.

Just for complete information - I have never tried using the Thru/Out status the DZ-2500 is capable of sending down the Serial data line.

However, I changed to using the Lionel SER2 because, in my application, I have both the Legacy command base and the TMCC command base connected together by the Y cable that comes with the Legacy command base. If I attached the DZ-2001 to the Legacy command base, I could command switches via Legacy, but not TMCC. In like fashion, if I connected the DZ-2001 to the TMCC command base, could control the switches via TMCC, but via Legacy. Switching to the SER2 allowed me to control the switches from both Legacy and TMCC

My wiring of Power, Common (common to the Layout ground system), and Serial data from Transformer/SER2 is a bus off which legs are taken, a leg might have one switch, or several switches. The connections from bus to legs are done with Wago connectors.

All my DZ-2500s have the ERR circuit breakout board the is now sold by Lionel. They do have diodes in the derail connections, as the breakout board has the "unbuffered" green and yellow switch throw wires, and "buffered Thru and Out connections which have the diodes (I wish I had a breakboard in my hands as I write this, 'cause my poor memory is telling me there is a low value resistor in series with the diode).

The biggest problem I had was of my own making. I used a four conductor cable (Power, Ground, Serial data, spare) to connect to all of the switches. I used an output of a ZW-C transformer for power. Recall ZW-C is a chopped output transformer. Found the sharp transitions of the chopping crosstalked in the serial data, causing complete failure. Switched to RW, no more problems. Moral of this paragraph - keep Serial data line away from any power wiring that is carrying chopped type power!!! A couple inches should be enough.

@Tony H posted:

Here is the note.

Thx Tony!

And thx GRJ for confirming the diodes on the breakout board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Tim, I bought the DZ-2001 from Ross, I'm guessing they have fairly recent stock on this stuff, I'm sure they ship a ton of it.  There doesn't seem to be any version on the actual board, the package says DZ-2001L, that seems to be pretty recent.  There's really not much on the DZ-2001m a 5V P/S circuit, the opto-iolator, and a drive transistor or FET for the signal.  A couple of resistors to tie it all together.  Interesting, mine has a 1K 1/8W resistor tacked on the back.

The resistor might be the modification Dennis made to avoid overloading the Legacy base with current to the LED, since the serial port had less drive current than the TMCC base.  

One spike vulnerability, I have always suspected that the DZ-2500 is susceptible to voltage spikes generated by solenoid-driven accessories and the like on the power bus.   Mine that were in proximity to a mail drop and barrel loader went belly-up several times at the same location, while others on the layout were fine.  I put a TVS and RC filter across the accessories' power terminals and the DZ-2500s seemed to appreciate it.

I'm sucking up all this information, good stuff.  This is my first voyage with the DZ-2500, it's clearly touchier than the DZ-1000 or other switch machines.

I learned about serial data in the 1980 on Wall St.  We used to run serial data 100's of feet between controllers, learned a lot about shielding and buffering RS-232 data.  Usually, really long serial data runs are current loop links and not voltage levels that are way too sensitive to external interference.

The chopped waveform would certainly be the kiss of death for serial data, I had that kinda' figured out.  However, an RC filter and TVS is also a good idea, I'll be adding those to the switch machine supply line.  I'll likely be using a brick for the supply, but I'll be looking around for a lower voltage one than 18V, no sense pushing the limits.  I could use one of my old 1033 transformers, they're around 16V, just about what I'd like to see on the AC line.

GRJ-

I use a dedicated CW-80 for powering all DZ-2500 switches (including the DZ-2001) and relay power for all LCS components (i.e. ASC2, CSM2).  Works good for me.  I would be very interested in YOUR choice for RC filter and TVS for this power feed.  I am currently using a PSX-1AC Solid State circuit breaker on the feed and that may be enough (or overkill) for the RC filter/TVS need.

Tim

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I looked at the DZ Breakout board, but I don't know if I want to sink more hundreds into the switch control just yet.

That is exactly why I decided against the breakout boards.  With about 30 switch machines, I did not want to drop that much $$.  I use the LCS system and it works great to contol them.

The breakout board looks very convenient, I'm thinking maybe I can fabricate something similar without spending $20/ea on them.  Since they're not available anyway, they're not a real option at this time.

@LionelAG posted:

GRJ-

I use a dedicated CW-80 for powering all DZ-2500 switches (including the DZ-2001) and relay power for all LCS components (i.e. ASC2, CSM2).  Works good for me.  I would be very interested in YOUR choice for RC filter and TVS for this power feed.  I am currently using a PSX-1AC Solid State circuit breaker on the feed and that may be enough (or overkill) for the RC filter/TVS need.

I don't think I'll need something like the PSX if I have a filter and TVS, at least I hope not.  My idea for a filter would likely be an LC filter to knock down any high frequency spikes, and then the TVS on the output to hopefully finish them off.   The filter would probably be a low pass filter with a couple of kilohertz cutoff frequency.  Three components should give my some insurance that super ugly spikes aren't visiting my switch machines.

All,

Please enlighten me.  There are a lot of acronyms flying around that I don't recognize.  I am building a layout that will use 42 DZ-2500 switch machines and 3 DZ-2001 Data Wire Drivers.  On the previous layout, I had the scenario where 1 failed DZ-2500A hangs all the other switches and I would like to avoid that at all costs.  Also, I have replaced all my DZ-2500A's with DZ-2500C's.

I've got some really stupid questions here:

1. What's a DZ Breakout Board?  What do I use it for?
2. What is a CSM?  What do I use it for?
3. What is a CSM2?
4. What is a PSX-1AC Solid State circuit breaker?  Where does it go?

Thanks,

George

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I learned about serial data in the 1980 on Wall St.  We used to run serial data 100's of feet between controllers, learned a lot about shielding and buffering RS-232 data.  Usually, really long serial data runs are current loop links and not voltage levels that are way too sensitive to external interference.

Ah, I remember the 80's fondly.  I worked at Digital Equipment Corporation.  Their DZ11, DL11, DH11 serial driver boards were particularly robust and capable of driving serial devices (dumb terminals) at distances approaching 1,200 feet.

George

@G3750 posted:

All,

Please enlighten me.  There are a lot of acronyms flying around that I don't recognize.  I am building a layout that will use 42 DZ-2500 switch machines and 3 DZ-2001 Data Wire Drivers.  On the previous layout, I had the scenario where 1 failed DZ-2500A hangs all the other switches and I would like to avoid that at all costs.  Also, I have replaced all my DZ-2500A's with DZ-2500C's.

I've got some really stupid questions here:

1. What's a DZ Breakout Board?  What do I use it for?
2. What is a CSM?  What do I use it for?
3. What is a CSM2?
4. What is a PSX-1AC Solid State circuit breaker?  Where does it go?

Thanks,

George

Welcome to the fray of DZ-2500 components from multiple vendors!

1.  DZ Breakout Board is sold by Lionel (yes, that's correct) to simplify wiring of DZ-2500 switch machines and handle the non-derailing connections.  Its got some protection circuitry as well as we've discussed lightly.  Introduced by Lionel the same time as the CSM2.

http://www.lionel.com/products...akout-board-1908010/

2. No such thing as a CSM; only a CSM2.  If you're a lazy typer like me you sometimes just type CSM.

3.  CSM2 is a combination STM2 (switch throw monitor to support LCS app) and BPC2 (Block power controller).  It also has a self contained serial Line that can completely replace the DZ-2001 Serial Data driver.  The Breakout board is very helpful for these connections as well.

http://www.lionel.com/products...hine-2-csm2-6-85295/

4.  PSX-1AC is a solid state circuit breaker that is designed to protect electronic boards.

https://ogrforum.com/...49#31276248595420549

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...b4qpFxTMmdANZoj8MLsd

@LionelAG posted:

Welcome to the fray of DZ-2500 components from multiple vendors!

1.  DZ Breakout Board is sold by Lionel (yes, that's correct) to simplify wiring of DZ-2500 switch machines and handle the non-derailing connections.  Its got some protection circuitry as well as we've discussed lightly.  Introduced by Lionel the same time as the CSM2.

http://www.lionel.com/products...akout-board-1908010/

2. No such thing as a CSM; only a CSM2.  If you're a lazy typer like me you sometimes just type CSM.

3.  CSM2 is a combination STM2 (switch throw monitor to support LCS app) and BPC2 (Block power controller).  It also has a self contained serial Line that can completely replace the DZ-2001 Serial Data driver.  The Breakout board is very helpful for these connections as well.

http://www.lionel.com/products...hine-2-csm2-6-85295/

4.  PSX-1AC is a solid state circuit breaker that is designed to protect electronic boards.

https://ogrforum.com/...49#31276248595420549

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...b4qpFxTMmdANZoj8MLsd

Thank you.  Wow!  That's a lot of information to digest, but first impressions are:

• One breakout board per DZ-2500 switch machine is an expensive fix, although if it prevents the issue of 1 malfunctioning switch machine hampering the others it may be worth it.  Operative word is "may".
• From what I read in the manual, the CSM2 requires a Legacy Command Base.  I'm not running Legacy, so this may not be a fit.  And at $100 for every 7 switch machines, that's a pretty big bill there as well.
• The PSX-1AC looks like a very good investment.  The reviews are pretty encouraging!

Again, my appreciation.  I have much to consider.

George

@G3750 posted:

Thank you.  Wow!  That's a lot of information to digest, but first impressions are:

• One breakout board per DZ-2500 switch machine is an expensive fix, although if it prevents the issue of 1 malfunctioning switch machine hampering the others it may be worth it.  Operative word is "may".
• From what I read in the manual, the CSM2 requires a Legacy Command Base.  I'm not running Legacy, so this may not be a fit.  And at $100 for every 7 switch machines, that's a pretty big bill there as well.
• The PSX-1AC looks like a very good investment.  The reviews are pretty encouraging!

Again, my appreciation.  I have much to consider.

George

George-

Page 10 of the CSM2 manual describes the procedure for installing without TMCC or Legacy Base so I think its possible.  I AM running Legacy on my layout and have no experience with LCS components without a base.  Lionel has touted this functionality so I assume it works.

The PSX-1AC is very nice but kinda pricey ($49 for one power channel).  They work remarkably well and I do think they are valuable if you can justify the pricetag.

Good luck!

Tim