E classification vs non E

okay went and dug the other one out and it also is a 3 position E-Unit so are all or most this way?

Before the 1930's Lionel used manual reverse units, "con-20" is what is listed as the part.  After the acquisition of Ives, who had gone bankrupt, Lionel took the Ives E unit, and redesigned it, and made it smaller, to what Lionel Pre & postwar started using.  The early versions of most of Lionel's locos were tagged with "E" after the number, to designate it had an electric E unit.  By the latter half of the 1930's, around 1937, the standard issued locos all had electric E units, and Lionel dropped the "E" from the number boards on all their locos, as everyone knew that the loco had the newer electric E unit, and the "E" was no longer needed.  

You need to know what year a particular loco was made, to know if it used the manual reverser, an electric E unit, or did have the electric E unit, and was made late 1930-1940's.  

Thanks figured some one would have a answer for the reason they have 3 position E units. Again thanks for the info. as to what year I wouldn't know how to even try and figure out that

Lionel had pendulum e-units before the Ives e-unit was acquired by Lionel and American Flyer in Ives Bankrupt.

To approximate the dates, and presuming the 1688 is original, if the nameplate on the the bottom of the motor says Lionel Jr., with 8 spoke wheels, it is 1936/37 issue.  Later part of 1937 going into 1938, the nameplate says Lionel 027, with 12 spoke wheels.  Around 1939 to end of production, the motors had plastic collector assembly with circle "L" and the motor resembles the Postwar 1655 motor, with 12 spoke wheels.  There are motors with Lionel Jr. Nameplates with 12 spoke wheels, which puts them in 1937 range.  All of this is with the assumption that they are original condition, and the motors were never replaced.

The bodies or shells are a different story, as there are at least 8 variations, with different details changed through production.  The absolute very first body casting was in early 1936.  That body is unique unto itself, from all later issues.

Totrainyard, you are correct, but the initial question was the "E" nameplates and nameplates without the E.  I tried to keep it as simple as possible.

I have a 224E from around 1940, and a 249E from 1938, so the E designation could be used until 1941 when Lionel stopped toy train production to enter WW2 production for the military, it is a pre war thing. As to when and how Lionel used the E designation is difficult to pinpoint for sure. However after 1945 the E designation was no longer used.

Another thing that I have noticed is that Lionel's number system is difficult at times to distinguish an O gauge engine from an 027 engine in post war stuff. A 3 letter number is just that and a 4 letter number is just that. Example of that is a post war 224 from 1946 is O gauge and a post war 235 from 1965 is 027.

Lee Fritz

Reversing units or no reverse unit in a loco in Lionel's earliest production, came into to play, by the year of manufacture, and by individual locos.  We are talking about the "0" gauge trains in this respect.  Lionel used a "manual" style switch in a lot of their 0 gauge (con-20 style).  They started to produce, and install a "remote" reversing unit, and the first type was introduced in 1925, as a Pendulum reverse unit.  These were two direction only, Fwd or Rev, no neutral.  Most of this type would carry a Red Lettered Plate, where locos with NO or Manual reverse were lettered in Black.

in 1930, Lionel secured the SOLE rights to the Ives drum style reverse units, from its acquisition of Ives. By 1932, Lionel had redesigned that unit, and reduced the size considerably, and called it an "E unit", which was electrically operated remotely, thus the name.  These E units were all three position, (fwd-neut-rev), until WW 2.  Postwar saw changes after the war, and different types of E units were made.  By the latter part of the 1930's, most people understood about the E unit, which became standard production, and the need for the "E" designation was no longer necessary and Lionel dropped it from the nameplates.

in regard to the numbering system of locos, the Standard that is assumed by many, is that's 3 digit 0 gauge loco is for 0 gauge only, and the four digit locos were designed for 027 track.  Any 027 loco will run on 0 track.  Some, and not all, 0 numbered locos can operate on 027 track.  The classic example is the S2 turbines, 671 & 2020.  These are basically identical engines, with only the number being the difference.

The E used on the 224E quoted above was probably a leftover part in use.

Gentlemen,

   From what I have seen there is more to the E than just the reverse unit, most times the E unit Engines, also include an Engine Head Light and Red Fire Box Light, most non E- Engines do not, it's just not an era ident.  In fact my original Lionel 249 Gun Metal Gray Engine was not an E,  Guns upgraded it with ERR, giving the 249 a front LED head light, and front LED Red running lights, along with a White LED Tender Back Up Light.  Granted this 249 ERR is now a very unique Lionel Tin Plate Engine & Tender.

PCRR/Dave

The 262E I had and the 1688E neither had a fire box they never came with one. Not all had fire boxes and both the examples above had head lights in both versions with or with out the E. In the case of the 1688 that I was actually asking about I was told

"From reading the most recent Greenburg reference guide to prewar O gauge trains, it appears that in 1939 and 40, Lionel used "1688" nameplates on all models of that locomotive, even those that should have been distinguished by 1688E."

So that actually answered that question

RTC,

   Bill as I indicated, not all engines were built exactly in the same manner, with or without the E unit ident.  My point was there is usually a little more to it.

PCRR/Dave

And my point was that The E  meant Electronic E unit not all the rest the rest was on some engines not all so it didn't have anything to do with the classification of the E

Bill,

   We agree to disagree!

PCRR/Dave

Are the modern E-units now called eUnits?

Just for you they are

By the way Andy did you send the same question to pine creek railroad or do you want to pick on me for some strange reason as if you look he was the first to forget to put the - in oh my what a crime and for just you I did E unit not eunit as one word if you have nothing better to do than pick on folks for grammar I feel sorry for you  

yes I know last comment will probably get this post deleted but it has merit 

E-unit, eunit we all know what it means.

I think the E was for the reverse unit but being a deluxe model lights were also added.

rtraincollector posted:

I thought if you had an engine like 262 it was 2 position E-unit and 262E was 3 position E-unit my reason for asking is I have a 1688 and it has a 3 Position E unit and I took top off and it doesn't look like it has recently been replaced ( leaving the possibility off early in it's life it may have) just curious in past have always bought 1688E for this reason now I have another 1688 I'm wondering about that (need to dig it out it's packed away ) 

Let's go back to the original post, and take the 262 as the first example, with just the number and NO "E".  The first issued 262 was in 1931-32.  This loco had a Hand Reverser/Manual reverser, and would not have the "E" designated anywhere.  In 1934 the 262 came with an E unit, designating that it was now equipped with the Electric remotely controlled loco.   Buyers could quickly identify the newer issue from the old version by the nameplate.  A lot of the early locos made by Lionel, before 1925 used a manual or hand reverser.  They were 2 position units.  1925 Lionel added a remote controlled reversing unit which was a Pendulum design.  In 1927, Lionel redesigned the Pendulum units for the 251 & 254 locos.  The pendulum units were only two (2) position units, Forward or Reverse.  When Lionel along with American Flyer acquired Ives, Lionel secured the exclusive rights to the early Ives drum type reversing unit.  In 1932, Lionel reintroduced a newer improved version of the Ives unit, by making it smaller and redesigning the drum to put the ratcheting in the center of the drum, compared to the Ives design with the ratcheting drum was at one end of the drum.  Lionel called them E units.

Through most of the period of 1932 until approximately 1938, the locos were equipped with # position E units, and the nameplates were stamped with the E after the loco number.  The manual reverser and the pendulum designed reversers were no longer being used, and would have had E units installed.  Moving on up to late 1938 and early 1939, Lionel assumed the buying public knew about the E unit, and didn't feel it necessary to add the "E" on the number plates.  Lionel eliminated the E from the number plates around this time.

It depends on what particular loco, Steam Locos, and the date of manufacture, as to whether or not the number plate had an E stamped along with the number.  If a loco was produced prior to 1925, it would have the manual reverser.  From 1925 until 1930, it most likely had a pendulum unit installed, and from 1931 on would have a 3 postion electric controlled E unit.  The E was not for identifying that a loco had a headlight, but to note that the loco had an electric E unit, by remote control.

Thank-you for your complete answer on this question