E4 Pilot Holes???

Sounds fishy to me, since the traction motors on ALL EMC/EMD locomotives have always been forced air cooled by traction motor blowers, either AC motor driven, or mechanical blower off the auxiliary generator drive on later units. Also, since the traction is an enclosed casing, slots in the pilot will due absolutely NOTHING. Somebody has a wild imagination, in my opinion.

That's what I figured.

I thought that if anything the holes were access holes/slots for getting to bolts or other things, possibly even "lightening holes" made to decrease the weight of the pilot.

There's probably enough air flowing around the motors when the engine is moving to provide enough cooling.

Thanks Jack!

Bob Delbridge posted:

That's what I figured.

I thought that if anything the holes were access holes/slots for getting to bolts or other things, possibly even "lightening holes" made to decrease the weight of the pilot.

There's probably enough air flowing around the motors when the engine is moving to provide enough cooling.

No. "Air flow around the motors" has NOTHING to do with their cooling. The cooling air is FORCE FED into to the top of each and every traction motor, by the traction motor blowers, up inside the car-body. Train speed has nothing to do with the cooling air volume. 

Thanks Jack!

Got it, thanks again!

Bob Delbridge posted: ...

This unit has either a retractable front coupler, or at least a movable shroud over the front coupler. I'm thinking the pilot slots have some purpose for that feature. Or, could the staggered horizontal slots to the sides be toe-holds for access purposes?

Toe holds? Possibly. But there would have to be a reason to want to climb onto the front of the locomotive, and where would a man go after reaching the top cut-out?  In early diesel days, they did some unusual things.  I would be almost certain that the retractable shroud for walking forward through when going from the E4A to the leading unit was operated from the inside of the nose, not the outside.

Just my opinion, but, considering the total number of cut-outs, I am going to vote for them being purely decorative.

Number 90 posted:

Toe holds? Possibly. But there would have to be a reason to want to climb onto the front of the locomotive, and where would a man go after reaching the top cut-out? ...

The front handholds and rungs might enable a person to get up there to wipe the headlight and number boards clean. Many locos had class lights up there with a small lever to change lens color. Ground crew might want to get up there without going through the nose. Maybe.

Slots in the coupler shroud may be handholds to help wrestle it open. There is usually a purpose behind those minor details.

The SAL E4s had a pneumatic Tilt-Out Door:

Not sure if other RRs E4s had this feature.

Looking at the open pilot I don't see the holes.  It looks like there might be a double layer of material there so maybe the holes are on an outer piece that is strictly cosmetic, or they're hand holds for opening the coupler doors.  Could also be for toe holds to get up to the door.

That solid-looking inside tells me that Jack knows his stuff and the holes were not made for air flow cooling!

Seaboard ran these in "Elephant Herd" fashion, nose of the 2nd unit to the rear of the 1st unit, from what I've read that's why they wanted these doors and pilots.

Bob,

Only the SAL had E4's.  The nose door arrangement is what made them a different model from the E3.

Stuart

Thanks Stuart, I thought that's what it was and just read it on another website.

Those details are all interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_E4

Ironically, the E4 was produced before the E3. Both models were identical, save for the E4 having a pneumatically-operated nose door passageway in order to facilitate crew movement between units in a locomotive consist.

Not sure the E4's were actually built before the E3's, more likely concurrent?

E3-E4-E5-E6-E7 units all had the same power rating, 2000 HP from two V12 engines. The E4's were all Seaboard units, 13 "A" units and 4 "B" units. The E5's were all Burlington Zephyr units, 11 "A" units and 5 "B" units. The E6 and especially E7 units were built in greater quantities, the earlier designations seeming to be minor variations with custom features for certain railroads.

Ace posted:

 

Not sure the E4's were actually built before the E3's, more likely concurrent?

I will direct you to "Classic Trains - Summer 2012" where there was a article titled "E Units A to 9" by Preston Cook (look him up so you know the why and wherefore he speaks!). In the article he mentions that the E4 started production (10/1938) before the first E3 (3/1939).

I am going to ask this in a nice way, do any of you actually read about trains and collect information about trains and have a desire to learn about trains (or model trains for that matter)? 
It is an interesting hobby in itself and a good companion hobby to model railroading. Try it, you might learn something. 

Big Jim posted:

Ace posted: 

Not sure the E4's were actually built before the E3's, more likely concurrent?

I will direct you to "Classic Trains - Summer 2012" where there was a article titled "E Units A to 9" by Preston Cook (look him up so you know the why and wherefore he speaks!). In the article he mentions that the E4 started production (10/1938) before the first E3 (3/1939).

I am going to ask this in a nice way, do any of you actually read about trains and collect information about trains and have a desire to learn about trains (or model trains for that matter)? 
It is an interesting hobby in itself and a good companion hobby to model railroading. Try it, you might learn something. 

Big Jim, do you actually read the profiles of OGR forumites who have participated in this thread? Try it, you might learn something, before you make inappropriately condescending remarks.

Big Jim posted:

I am going to ask this in a nice way, do any of you actually read about trains and collect information about trains and have a desire to learn about trains (or model trains for that matter)? 

I just counted - I have 173 books on trains, not counting my own two books or my nearly-complete collection of Locomotive and Railway Preservation (magazine).

Of those, 54 are books from the 19th century into the early 20th, dealing with steam operation, such as Grimshaw, Angus Sinclaire, the ICS course books, etc. Twenty-one books are on model railroad subjects. The rest are usually railroad-specific books ("Thoroughbreds;" "Silver San Juan," etc.), with a few general-interest books relatives have bought me through the years.

So yes, I do actually read about trains. 

Ace posted:

Big Jim posted:

Ace posted: 

Not sure the E4's were actually built before the E3's, more likely concurrent?

I will direct you to "Classic Trains - Summer 2012" where there was a article titled "E Units A to 9" by Preston Cook (look him up so you know the why and wherefore he speaks!). In the article he mentions that the E4 started production (10/1938) before the first E3 (3/1939).

I am going to ask this in a nice way, do any of you actually read about trains and collect information about trains and have a desire to learn about trains (or model trains for that matter)? 
It is an interesting hobby in itself and a good companion hobby to model railroading. Try it, you might learn something. 

Big Jim, do you actually read the profiles of OGR forumites who have participated in this thread? Try it, you might learn something, before you make inappropriately condescending remarks.

Exactly what condescending remark was that? I asked a question. AND, before I did, I stated that I was asking nicely so as none of you would think it was condescending. Obviously, it didn't work with you. Also, I didn't highlight anything such as you have in a way that would make it sound condescending!

Plus, the E5A and B production began in 2/1940 while the E6A began in 11/1939 while the E6B began in 4/1940. (Kalmbach's Diesel Spotter's Guide by Jerry Pinkepank c. 1973)

Rusty

Big Jim, if you hadn't used the word "actually" it wouldn't have sounded condescending.  Which it did, with that single word.

Just saying "I was asking nicely so as none of you would think it was condescending" doesn't count. You actually have to do it.

When are you coming down here?

This has been an interesting ongoing discussion.  Thanks to Bob Delbridge, who started the thread, and also found and posted the photo of the SAL E4A with the nose pilot cover retracted.  That unit does not appear to have the cutouts, and might be an EMD builder photo.  Regardless, the cutouts appear to be a home shop job, and, as evidenced by the open door photo, apparently have no function in securing the door in the open position.

Probably, unless there was a Mechanical Department record of this modification, and that record exists in the archives of Seaboard Air Line somewhere, we will need to check all the rest homes in Florida for retired Seaboard machinists of at least 90 years of age, if we want to have a verifiable answer.  If Warren Calloway is still living, he might know.

Tom,

I'll ask him and let everyone know!

Still no definitive answer from the ACL/SAL gurus, but Warren Calloway did provide another photo (of #3008) with the pilot doors open, a closeup shows the holes going all the way thru:

One guy did suggest that if it was for traction motor cooling than all engines (E4 and up, unless EMD added the cooling fans to the motors after the E4s were built) would have been equipped with holes.

Looking at an enlargement of the photo, the holes may very well have been for toe/hand holds, or for access to various hoses without having to keep the doors open.  Also to gain access to levers???

One of the SAL guys, John Black, father was an EMD trained mechanic.  Hopefully John is checking his father's notes and will post shortly.

Thanks for your perseverance, Bob.  

Thanks Tom!

John Black did comment and is looking at a book his father had that he had written notes in, but he said at some time the book had gotten wet and some of the pages are stuck together.  I suggested he contact his local library about getting it restored.