Experience with basement/humidity/etc

Interesting experiment, but I guess trying to just A/C and hoping the humidity stays in check probably is a difficult balancing act.  I know my basement rarely need A/C, so if I depended on it to dehumidify, I'm sure it would be a problem.  My ductless system does have a mode that promises to do just that, but I've never tried it.  I have two dehumidifiers down here, they do the job.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Interesting experiment, but I guess trying to just A/C and hoping the humidity stays in check probably is a difficult balancing act.  I know my basement rarely need A/C, so if I depended on it to dehumidify, I'm sure it would be a problem.  My ductless system does have a mode that promises to do just that, but I've never tried it.  I have two dehumidifiers down here, they do the job.

The idea of the eco mode was that it did both (according to DeLonghi). The unit has a dehumidify only mode as well, so I assumed it could do it. I think their idea of 'comfort zone' was more oriented towards temp, it kept the temp in the upper 60's, which masked the humidity. I should have learned the lesson that things that claim to be multi function generally don't do the individual things very well.

@bigkid posted:

The idea of the eco mode was that it did both (according to DeLonghi).

Exactly, the Carrier ductless unit I have claims the same thing.  However, I reasoned that since it doesn't have both sets of coils in one unit, that it could only do heating or A/C at one time, and since I needed very little A/C even in the summer, I couldn't see how that could work.

You might consider a mini-split for the area. You might still need a dehumidifier, with direct access to a drain, but it’s really a set it and forget it system. Consider also that if you are away, and the humidity builds, you could be in for a surprise.

Jay

I wouldn't consider a dehumidifier I had to empty every day, that's way too maintenance intensive!  I have two with direct drains, and a ductless heat pump (mini-split) for A/C and heat in the winter.

Great topic, for several years I didn’t consider a dehumidifier for my basement as it’s very dry, in my thinking, no leaks, and just three sides are hidden underground, one wall facing our patio. However, one of my friends said I really needed one so, 10 years ago we bought a GE dehumidifier, it does fill up every day, I empty the unit daily and my wife uses the water for her flowers. Yes, it’s a bit inconvenient, but, it keeps the trains running, no rust, and it’s clean. In the winter, it’s not necessary. Our home is heated and cooled with two large Trane systems. I’m sure I could have a drain installed, but it keeps me active. Happy Railroading Everyone

I run a dehumidifier year round.  Yes, it does fill with water even during the winter months. My basement train room stays at 35% as a result.  I save the water in gallon jugs and use it during the winter months in humidifiers upstairs.  I don’t use my Aprilaire humidifier on the furnace in the winter because I keep the furnace outlet open for heat and that would also dump a lot of moisture into the basement to do battle with the dehumidifier.  What we do to protect our trains!……..

Plug dehumidifier into a heavy duty timer so it doesnt make noise at night. Drains into nearby sump well. Doesnt come on in winter. All new shelves in basement are wire so air can flow around. Put pass thru vents in closets, one low one high. But the best was not done by me, the house was built with drain tiles near the perimeter of basement and they dump into sump well.

Humidity control is a byproduct of air conditioning,  often reliant on proper system sizing and hours of run time. Small portable or window AC's don't do a great job at both, they are primarily designed to cool the room.

I have both a portable AC and a dehumidifier in my basement. The AC is only run when necessary, but the dehumidifier is set to run as needed 24/7.

Basements are different too. Mine is fully insulated and finished, which helps stabilize indoor air conditions.  Bare concrete walls will hold moisture and can lead to swings in temps and humidity.

Ductless splits have much better controls and can do an excellent job of temp and humidity control.

All that said, a good dehumidifier is the most cost effective way to manage our basements and protect our layouts.

Bob

My experience is similar - and while each basement or train room is unique - the fundamentals of physics stay the same: generally speaking, the warmer the air the more moisture it can hold, and if its  high dew point outside you can inadvertently create a sink.

For my basement, I have two central AC ducts feeding in and one return; and then use a dehumidifier in the train area and one in the utility room (that has the blower) that I program to run intermittently. I have found this set up actually helps the central AC unit, since removing moisture from the air is a large part of an AC's energy load. I don't have a drain however, so it's up and down the steps morning and night to empty.

Another comment for users of portable AC units.

Toss the flex exhaust hose that comes with the unit and pick up some 6" insulated flex-duct. The condenser exhaust can run at about 90 deg. Some of this heat is only being dumped back into the room through the plastic hose. I've been using flex-duct since I bought my unit and it makes a big difference. It can easily be attached to the adapters with large tie-wraps and foil tape.

If you want to see for yourself check the air blowing out of the hose next time you have it on.

Bob

I used to use the central air to do any cooling in my basement, but I found I couldn't control the temperature sufficiently well.  On a really hot day, the basement was stone cold since the A/C ran a lot.  On cooler days, it actually got warmer.

I closed off all the central air vents and installed the ductless mini-split when I added the loft climate control, problem solved!

Yes, I still have the two dehumidifiers, they are mandatory to keep the humidity in check.

@RSJB18 posted:

Another comment for users of portable AC units.

Toss the flex exhaust hose that comes with the unit and pick up some 6" insulated flex-duct. The condenser exhaust can run at about 90 deg. Some of this heat is only being dumped back into the room through the plastic hose. I've been using flex-duct since I bought my unit and it makes a big difference. It can easily be attached to the adapters with large tie-wraps and foil tape.

If you want to see for yourself check the air blowing out of the hose next time you have it on.

Bob

Thanks for the tip, I never even though of that! Yeah, it blows out hot, that is for sure.  A mini split might be in my future if I can swing the cost, right now the basement doesn't have its own heat (I have debated opening up the heating ducts there, but I am afraid it would throw off the balance in the rest of the house. It might work otherwise,the humidifier on the furnace keeps the fan going often (the furnace humidifier operates independently of the unit firing, I have a thermostat that is also a humidistat).

@bigkid posted:

Thanks for the tip, I never even though of that! Yeah, it blows out hot, that is for sure.  A mini split might be in my future if I can swing the cost, right now the basement doesn't have its own heat (I have debated opening up the heating ducts there, but I am afraid it would throw off the balance in the rest of the house. It might work otherwise,the humidifier on the furnace keeps the fan going often (the furnace humidifier operates independently of the unit firing, I have a thermostat that is also a humidistat).

I don't think you need a humidifier for the basement.  I'm curious why the humidifier runs independently, usually they depend on the hot air blowing through to evaporate the water on the drum.

You're right about the balance using the central air, that's why I went to the mini-split.

Very timely topic.

We discovered recently that our water pressure tank (attached to the well feed) had acquired a slow leak from a bottom fitting.  It's about 30 years old (part of the original build of the home).  A cyber search sez those pressure tanks are good for maybe 15-20 years, water quality a significant variable to aging.  We were overdue.   

About 15 years ago the township came through with city water in support of a new subdivision nearby.  We tapped in...but kept the well source for the outside taps.  Then, the layout was built...right over top of the well pressure tank.  You know...out of sight, out of mind? 

Well, wife pulled some boxes from beneath the layout, that had been hiding the pressure tank...and found 'evidence' of the water leak.  Never was a flood issue.  But you could tell from the concentric mineral ring witness on the surrounding floor that the tank needed replacing...or a Depends!!   Further examination of the boxes, a nearby wood baseboard molding, etc., said we perhaps were on the cusp of a mold issue.

And, so, the project du jour quickly segued from happy things to OMG!'s...basement humidity, leaking water pressure tank, mold-search.  IOW, mental mayhem. 

Well, within a couple hours we were visited by our favorite plumber...confirming the need for a pressure tank..."And, no, you do NOT want to connect your outside taps to city water if the pump is working just fine!", sez he.  He's booked into October, but will be installing the new tank October 26.  Further analysis of cardboard boxes (none which sat directly on the floor, but elevated on roll-around dollies/shelves) within a few feet further from ground zero said we perhaps were over-hyped by the mold concern. 

Our plumber agreed...but he looked at our ancient dehumidifier with an expression that clearly said..."Really??  REALLY, folks!!??  THIS is what you're controlling your humidity with????"  We had no idea what the actual humidity level was (See GRJ?  You're not alone!).   It felt...fine.  The knob was set at #4...whatever that meant.  In fact it had been at that number since the day we bought it...about eleventy-seventy years ago (Remember Sears?).   We've had no rusty track.  Wife would say that the basement didn't seem to smell any mustier than her husband!  But it was clear...Ol' Shakey was like the pressure tank...and me!...past its prime. 

So we bought two new whiz-bang 35-pint GE's for the basement.  And GOOD GRIEF!, when I first turned them on, the readouts said "YO!!...you're currently at 75%!!"  Three days later, we're down to 45% and holding.  And the bucket-dumping brigade has already voted to take advantage of the hose attachment points on the machines and run the hose to the sump and/or floor drains.

So, hopefully, we cellar dwellers are on the road to renewed dryness...an once again there's peace in the valley.  Yay!!

KD

@dkdkrd posted:

Our plumber agreed...but he looked at our ancient dehumidifier with an expression that clearly said..."Really??  REALLY, folks!!??  THIS is what you're controlling your humidity with????"  We had no idea what the actual humidity level was (See GRJ?  You're not alone!).   It felt...fine.  The knob was set at #4...whatever that meant.  In fact it had been at that number since the day we bought it...about eleventy-seventy years ago (Remember Sears?).   We've had no rusty track.  Wife would say that the basement didn't seem to smell any mustier than her husband!  But it was clear...Ol' Shakey was like the pressure tank...and me!...past its prime. 

So we bought two new whiz-bang 35-pint GE's for the basement.  And GOOD GRIEF!, when I first turned them on, the readouts said "YO!!...you're currently at 75%!!"  Three days later, we're down to 45% and holding.  And the bucket-dumping brigade has already voted to take advantage of the hose attachment points on the machines and run the hose to the sump and/or floor drains.

Actually, I've always known what the humidity is down here, I have several wall mounted sensors that tell me temperature and humidity.  That was of primary importance to me, I know how important humidity control in a basement is.

I go for the maximum capacity dehumidifier, that's currently 50 pints/day for the "consumer grade" dehumidifiers.  I've always had them with drains, emptying the tanks every day is such a drag!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think you need a humidifier for the basement.  I'm curious why the humidifier runs independently, usually they depend on the hot air blowing through to evaporate the water on the drum.

You're right about the balance using the central air, that's why I went to the mini-split.

GRJ:

Sorry, I was talking the main furnace. The way furnace humidifiers work is they only are activated (ie open a water valve that goes through a pad, and air from the furnace output hot air is fed back into the intake side over the pad, putting moisture into the air) when the furnace is firing and the fan comes on. On my unit we have a themostat upstairs with a humidistat as well, if the humidity drops below the setting value, it turns on the circulating fan and turns on the valve that lets water flow into the pad irregardless of whether the furnace is firing or not. My basement does not have ducts open from the furnace, so it won't get the moisturized air. With our hot air system it can get really dry in winter, like 25% humidity, with the humidifier working the way it does it keeps it at least tolerable.

I have the same humidifier, but since I've blocked off all the basement ducts, it just does the main floors.  The loft and basement have mini-split units running from a single outside unit.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the same humidifier, but since I've blocked off all the basement ducts, it just does the main floors.  The loft and basement have mini-split units running from a single outside unit.

Yeah, as I said my basement is independent. I'll seriously think of a mini split for it , what i am doing now is stopgap, that would handle both heating and cooling there (I'll likely use a space heater for when I work down there, it isn't freezing down there in winter, it is just colder than rest of house)

Ok, I have a couple of Humidity monitors, and a Carbon Monoxide alarm just to keep me alert as to the moisture in my basement. It’s a finished basement and is air conditioned with a return air vent. Although I have to empty the 50 pint container daily, it’s important to keep my basement at 65 to 72 degrees for comfort. It’s clean, finished, and a cool man cave area to play trains. This is a fun thread to read, as train rooms contain some expensive electronics and this is why we must make sure we do not allow humidity to ruin our good equipment. We do not run our steamers with smoke very often, just when we have new comers to the hobby. You can see my back room, located under my front porch, a humidity meter, and my 60 amp circuit breaker box that is the control center for my layout. We also have a 55 inch smart TV to watch videos and YouTube shows for fun entertainment.  Happy Railroading Everyone

I live in a Mediterranean climate and I do not have a basement or an air conditioner. I do have problems with humidity. In the winter when the furnace is running, the humidity drops below 40% and I have to put on the tea kettle. In the summer after dark I need to open the windows to cool off with the cool ocean breeze and the humidity may jump above 60%. What do I need to do to protect my FasTrack? Is it safe if I could keep the humidity between 45 and 55%?

Unless the humidity gets really low, it's not a problem.  Even then, it's far preferable to high humidity.

If you have windows open, there's really no point in running a dehumidifier.

Maybe I'm lucky but I've never needed a dehumidifier in my basement. It's unfinished and has bare concrete foundation and brick, but has 3 HVAC ducts. Humidity stays between 35-45% all year on its own. The basement does get heated and cooled like the rest of the house, which probably helps.

The house is 66 years old but the basement isn't leaky or damp, which helps.

I have a mini-split heat pump in my basement train room as well, and it works great for temperature control. While it has a "dry" setting that is effective at keeping the humidity below 50% in the summer, that setting also makes the room too cold. The a/c setting maintains a steady temperature, but doesn't dehumidify enough, so I run a dehumidifier at the same time during the summer. This combination works very well and enables me to keep the room at a consistent 68-70 degrees and 45% to 50% humidity. About this time of year, I turn the dehumidifier off for the season and switch the mini-split to heat mode.

I guess the lesson here is this: if you need to dehumidify, buy a dehumidifier because an air conditioner most likely will not do the job.

Check with your local HVAC Contractors, there are some grants and discounts based on your income available in some areas to get Heat Pump/AC/Mini Splits installed to replace your aging furnace and central air units, and you might also get your electric service and panel increased and installed. I got 2 heat pumps, 2 mini splits, upgraded electrical service and panel all installed for $3000 under the grant. Otherwise out of pocket it would had been a $21,000 job. Even more to just replace the furnace and central air unit with newer ones. It's amazing how much more efficient with the heat pump/AC/ mini splits that they are. Very pleased with them! If you need a dehumidifier, buy and run that separately for best results to keep your humidity level down for your train room and work shop areas.

Well, I only wish I could have gotten my new furnace, A/C, and the mini-splits for that price, but mine ran me around $16K for everything.  That's my reward for working hard and having a decent retirement fund.

Lot's of state and federal money out there for upgrading to heat pumps from older gas and oil fired furnaces and boilers.

They call it "decarbonization"

Many utilities are offering rebates and incentives as well.