Expert Advice Welcome--- If you were starting from scratch, why buy a control system? Why not stay bluetooth?

Today? With MTH going away, Lionel may be the way to go. While somewhat limited, in choices Bluetooth works ( I have run both LionChief and Legacy engines with it). No extra hardware, just an app on your smart phone. Cheap, and it does work.

HOWEVER, this really limits your choice engines. MTH made a lot of the engines in my collection. The balance are TMCC w/ one Legacy. All of the TMCC engines run great with my MTH DCS system. A year ago, my answer would have been 100% different. Without hesitation then, MTH.

A lot depends on how you feel about the device you doing this with, and what you want to do.

If you just want to start a train up and let it run and make some noises it really does not matter much I think.   If you want fine control to be able to spot cars at certain locations on industrial sidings,  you may want to consider what you use for control.

I have three major personal problems with bluetooth control.   First I want the fine control because I operate my trains to switch cars using switchlists and I need to be able to spot them are precise locations.   My opinion is that I could not get that kind of fine control with a touch screen.    This leads to the second very personal problem, I have very dry skin and I usually have trouble getting things to work on touch screens.   I move my finger along the screen and NOTHING happens!   And I personally like a knob for speed control and I like a center off reversing switch so when I stop a loco, I don't accidently start it moving again by bumping the throttle.   This might be more a problem with the knobby throttles I use than a cell  phone.

Bluetooth can give you very fine control.  Check out BlueRail.  You can use an iPhone or an MFI handheld controller.  You can install BlueRail in any engine.  And if you buy MTH PS3 engines which have DCC, you can connect BlueRail to those and pick up functionality and Sound right from the PS3 board.

Going with Bluetooth would also give you natural ability to run Lionel LionChief and some Legacy engines which have Bluetooth capability without the need to buy a control system.

You can even decide to run trains on AC Track Power, DCC or Battery.  I have a video posted where I'm running DCS, Legacy and BlueRail AC all on the same track at the same time.

Have Fun!

Ron

Lionel factory Bluetooth does not operate as smoothly and precisely as the Legacy handheld.

More importantly. ( to me at least) One can operate all of the main locomotive control features on the Legacy handheld by feel, instead of staring at the screen on an iPad or whatever.

I don't even think the Mth dcs or dcc in smaller scales for that matter are as tactile, requiring multiple keystrokes to access a particular function.

Those that give the Legacy handheld a bad rap saying it's "too big or clunky" don't realize the genius of its design for the simple reason I stated above.

It's like being able to sing ,play a guitar, and blow into a harmonica at the same time.

I want to look at my trains when I operate them ,not at a screen. I stare at a screen enough perusing this forum lol!

Of course, I'm no expert. Just a grown man that plays with trains.

DCC is not just in small scales.   I use it and most of my O scale friends use it.

And most DCC throttles have a group of buttons, 8-12 or so depending on throttle that access a function with one push.   And with DCC the decoders can be programmed to use these buttons for any function on the decoder.    The basic ones are 0 for headlights, 1 for bell, 2 for horn/whistle, 3 for short horn or some special sound and then they vary a bit for decoder to decoder.  Quite often 8 will mute the decoder if you like.    So there are many things that can be done with one push of the button.

No one system will operate all current command locos. While you can use MTH's DCS system to control Lionel TMCC/Legacy locos, you need to buy the Lionel system to enable this capability, so you are buying two systems one way or the other. 

You'll need to decide whether you want to buy into a system (DCS from MTH) right now until it's clear that the system will be supported after May 2021, and to what extent.  Buying a system from a company that has emphatically said it's closing next year entails some uncertainty and risk of being orphaned at this point. 

All LionChief, LionChief+ and LionChief +2.0 equipped locos (meaning everything now being manufactured by Lionel in three rail O gauge) will operate without the Legacy system. You can buy the $40 Universal LionChief remote or use the free Bluetooth app that works on a smartphone or tablet,  and never purchase Legacy if that's to your liking.

However, Legacy provides other features not accessible through LionChief or Bluetooth, including routes, turnout controls and other layout features, as well as a few locomotive features.

And if you want to operate in conventional mode, you don't need any of this stuff at all. Except for LionChief basic locos, all current locos manufactured or locos ever manufactured will operate with your simple postwar transformer. Properly equipped with modern circuit breakers if you choose that route.

Here is my 2 cents worth.  All of my locos are Lionel Lionchief and I use the Lionel remotes to run them.  I use DC from wall warts to supply power with numerous switched power blocks.   Does this provide fine control for switching cars?  No, it does not but I do not want to switch cars so I am a happy man.  I did not have the additional $$$$$$ to purchase the additional equipment necessary to accomplish this control, so it was a moot point for me.  I went the economical route.    I am still like the 8 year old child in the early 1960's who just loves to watch multiple trains running around the layout.   Many forum members have great layouts with sophisticated control and that is great, it's just not my cup of tea.

If I was starting from scratch, I would buy the Legacy control system.  Blue tooth ONLY gives you control over the engines.  Legacy gives me control over the transformer (TPCs, ZW-L), switches, acessories, all engines (except Lion Chief & Lion Chief Plus).  Any upgrades I want to do, to go command command control require Legacy/TMCC.  In order to use BlueTooth, you need a cell phone.  Cell phone technology changes every year.  5 years from now, bluetooth could be replaced by something newer and better.  What happens if cell phones are no longer made with bluetooth?  The Legacy remote has better longevity.  TMCC remotes are over 10 years year old and still functioning.  Lionel upgraded the tmcc remote when parts became obsolete and gave us Legacy.  I can only assume that will happen again when Legacy parts become obsolete.  BlueTooth is nice but its technology that is not in Lionel's hands.  I would go with Legacy.

You've already received some great advice and I'm sure others will weigh in.

I'll approach from it from a little bit different route. I think you need to think about what your end goal is...what type of layout do you want? Small, large? Some loops of track or do you want switching and sidings? How many trains do you think you'll run at once? What's your budget? Brand loyalty can come into play although I know you may not even be at that point yet.

Answering those questions may not lead you to an exact direction but I think they'll give you something to ponder in your decision making.

You mentioned the good old classic Lionel ZW. Which raises another question. Do you possibly want to just run conventionally with no control systems, including Bluetooth? Despite what appears to be a preponderance of control systems here on the forum, most data shows that the vast majority of O gaugers run conventionally. The control systems are great, but many still go the old school route.

Lots to consider. Good luck!

"What happens if cell phones are no longer made with bluetooth? "

As long as you have the LionChief universal remote or the remote that came with the loco, all Lionel locos made respond to the LionChief command system these days, so Bluetooth is just one of multiple options.  Shouldn't be a problem in the near future if Lionel stays in business.

The universal remote is relatively inexpensive at $50 MSRP and most large on-line dealers sell it for about $40.  As pointed out above, it is limited to control of locos at this point, unlike Legacy, which has many more capabilities, but is a $300-350 investment.

I will take a somewhat different approach.  I only run TMCC or conventional.  I selected TMCC at the time for two reasons, ease of set up, available locos from vendors other than lionel and ease of upgrading.  Another factor was I had few MTH  locos at the time.  That being said if I were brand new to the hobby I would be seriously considering battery on board radio control locomotives.  If as someone said you want to run trains this is the way to go.  I haven't dove deep yet but it appears you can get fine control for switching as well. 

Some take great pleasure in wiring or building control panels that are nothing short of works of art, I am not one of those folks.  If you are just starting out consider all options.

@RickO posted:

Lionel factory Bluetooth does not operate as smoothly and precisely as the Legacy handheld.

More importantly. ( to me at least) One can operate all of the main locomotive control features on the Legacy handheld by feel, instead of staring at the screen on an iPad or whatever.

I don't even think the Mth dcs or dcc in smaller scales for that matter are as tactile, requiring multiple keystrokes to access a particular function.

Those that give the Legacy handheld a bad rap saying it's "too big or clunky" don't realize the genius of its design for the simple reason I stated above.

It's like being able to sing ,play a guitar, and blow into a harmonica at the same time.

I want to look at my trains when I operate them ,not at a screen. I stare at a screen enough perusing this forum lol!

Of course, I'm no expert. Just a grown man that plays with trains.

I agree completely with Rick's comments.

When the Legacy system was first announced, I recall seeing the mockup of the CAB-2 and thought it was ridiculous. All of the rocker switches, odd sized buttons, no uniformity, etc. It all seemed unnecessary - until I used it. Then it became clear. You won't need to stare at the remote while using it because of that clever layout.

While I would like for the simplicity of bluetooth to be the clear-cut winner, it does pale in comparison to the Legacy remote system.

Both the Legacy Cab II, and Cab I for that matter, and the DCS remote controls are simply  more "fun" to use. I don't get that same "fun" factor from holding my cell phone and moving my finger on the screen to move virtual slide bars and push virtual buttons.

I hope using the various remotes doesn't become nostalgia, but if it does there's nothing wrong with that, though it'll just be harder to obtain service and replacements. There's still operators who prefer the handles of the ZW and Z-4000 which admittingly is an awesome feel to run an engine by.

For those who do not like to use the cell phone or a tablet, here is another option.

Bulldog405, you've gotten a lot of reasonable and considered responses - much to consider.

For me, I tend away from smartphone devices, i.e. Bluetooth, and towards control systems.  As far as they go, the Lionel LionChief systems (2.0, +, etc.) are very good for controlling individual trains and starter sets.  I have used LC+ in our hobby shop and like it.  Clearly, Lionel has hit a home-run with this system.  And they can be used with other other control systems as they do not interfere with them.

DCS?  With MTH departing the scene, I think on-going support of that system is dubious, at best.  That's just my personal opinion and I would be happy to be proven wrong, if only for the sake of those users.

I run TMCC, not Legacy.  I have used Legacy, again in our hobby shop, and I like it as well.  I do not have any extensive experience with it, but RickO, graz, and Joe Fermani have all weighed in with praises for Legacy and its remote.  I also like the feel of a dedicated remote and the ability to focus on running a train with it.  I am not a fan of the iPhone (or any smart phone) interface for running trains.  Lack of tactile feedback and fine grained control is the issue for me.

Control systems (TMCC, Legacy, DCS) give you control over the entire layout - trains, turnouts, accessories, routes, animations, the works.  If that's important to you, control systems have a significant advantage at this time.

Best,

George

I use my phone for phone calls, maps, weather, and email.  It also talks to my car.

When I want to run trains, I would MUCH rather have a physical remote that I can operate one-handed, not a phone that is clumsy to operate and requires both hands.  I also don't want to have to look at the screen to operate it, I can run trains with one hand with either the Lionel or MTH remotes.

While the Universal remote is OK, it's operating features are limited, and my experience is that the range of the LC/LC+ remotes and the universal remotes are very limited in range.  On larger layouts, I've stranded my locomotive in tunnels a number of times and had to run around waving the remote to try to get reconnected.

Bluetooth and the LC Universal remote only control locomotives, but I have all TMCC switches, TMCC operating cars, etc.

My choice is Legacy first, and MTH second.  I'd flip a coin over the two except that MTH is fading into the sunset, so I see little reason to make that a primary choice.

Since I have a lot of locomotives, I have both systems, and I have all bases covered.

What Landsteiner said.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

On larger layouts, I've stranded my locomotive in tunnels a number of times and had to run around waving the remote to try to get reconnected.

Now that would be funny as all heck to see GRJ running around waving his remote in the air like he didn't care!

I’ll add my two cents.   DCS and TMCC are great if you have a large layout and are running numerous engines.   If you have dedicated loops and are running one engine on each loop I don’t see the need.   I have TMCC and DCS engines along with Bluetooth engines and just recently unplugged the TMCC system.   I run my engines either conventional or Bluetooth.   I just want bell and horn.   I don’t need all the other functions.  You just really need to sit down and determine what you are going to use and not need.

@bulldog405 posted:

So new to the Hobby (live up North, and now working from home---and will likely remain so post COVID), Just joining the hobby (post war Lionel passed down from my Grandfather), adding a couple Lionchief Plus starter sets, and maybe an MTH.  So here is my big question......Why would I invest in a control system?......the control system interfaces seem very antiquated....why not just use bluetooth and an app (recognizing some of the fantastic engines are not BT compatible)...so that would limit me to pretty recent builds?  Having said that---i recognize I don't know what i don't know.....

Will also tell you i have fond memories of running my Grandfathers train what I now know to be a ZW.  *Nothing quite like those lighted jewels!  Amazing what you remember from childhood.

Disclaimers---i completely understand why anyone invested into a control system of some sort would NOT want to change or give that up.  Also, as someone new to the hobby; It will take me quite a while (and many winter hours trapped in doors) to build a great background and track system.

If your advice is to invest in a system.......which one?  what is the best investment or bang for the buck to run both Lionel and MTH units?

I really welcome your thoughts and advice----Thanks in advance for your thoughtful responses.  What a great forum!

Do U want to drive a 1931 Model A or a 2021 Mustang!!  Now an all Electric Mustang!!

NO Comparison, go “Legacy” and Really enjoy the operation of your 🚂 Trains!

Just saying!!  LOL

While I have both, the plan is to eventually convert the only 3 MTH engines I have left to Legacy with the Help of Bruk.   DCS is good but MTH is going by by, and Legacy is superior anyway. My 2 cents.

There are a substantial number of currently available systems for running model trains, so selecting one is not that easy. Over the past few years, I have tested a number of R/C systems, many of which have been described in articles.  All of them performed well and the only significant differences were in the features offered. I also have conventional track power and TMCC.

My overall conclusion is that the most important basic question today is whether to go track signal based or wireless. Each has its pluses and minuses and of course, you can do both.

@G3750 posted:

Bulldog405, you've gotten a lot of reasonable and considered responses - much to consider.

For me, I tend away from smartphone devices, i.e. Bluetooth, and towards control systems.  As far as they go, the Lionel LionChief systems (2.0, +, etc.) are very good for controlling individual trains and starter sets.  I have used LC+ in our hobby shop and like it.  Clearly, Lionel has hit a home-run with this system.  And they can be used with other other control systems as they do not interfere with them.

DCS?  With MTH departing the scene, I think on-going support of that system is dubious, at best.  That's just my personal opinion and I would be happy to be proven wrong, if only for the sake of those users.

I run TMCC, not Legacy.  I have used Legacy, again in our hobby shop, and I like it as well.  I do not have any extensive experience with it, but RickO, graz, and Joe Fermani have all weighed in with praises for Legacy and its remote.  I also like the feel of a dedicated remote and the ability to focus on running a train with it.  I am not a fan of the iPhone (or any smart phone) interface for running trains.  Lack of tactile feedback and fine grained control is the issue for me.

Control systems (TMCC, Legacy, DCS) give you control over the entire layout - trains, turnouts, accessories, routes, animations, the works.  If that's important to you, control systems have a significant advantage at this time.

Best,

George

George,

thank you for the thoughtful reply----lots to think about but this really helped.

Scott

I'm 67 with i phone 5 in my pocket and two years ago purchased my Legacy on black Friday and saved a bundle.  I'm thrilled with Legacy. Found an MTH z4000 cheep at a TCA  meet in York in 2019 for $250.. A steal.

I truly enjoy my Legacy an so does my 7 year old grandson. Alex likes the red L dial for the accelerator and reverse for engines and control of the gantry crane I purchased at same black Friday.  I do not have any experience with using APPs on iPhones but watch them used during train shows.   The Legacy works and is simple.   

@prrjim posted:

DCC is not just in small scales.   I use it and most of my O scale friends use it.

And most DCC throttles have a group of buttons, 8-12 or so depending on throttle that access a function with one push.   And with DCC the decoders can be programmed to use these buttons for any function on the decoder.    The basic ones are 0 for headlights, 1 for bell, 2 for horn/whistle, 3 for short horn or some special sound and then they vary a bit for decoder to decoder.  Quite often 8 will mute the decoder if you like.    So there are many things that can be done with one push of the button.

... what he said. This whole issue, is confined to O3R. O Scale 2R and all smaller scales use DCC, which is universally inter-compatible. I take my DCC locos to any other DCC layout and they run. One member of my club has converted Hornby Dublo 3R loco to DCC as a test piece, and they work fine.

It controls a whole range of functions from single push-buttons, depending on which controller you choose. I’d have preferred to use it for O3R but for the cost of conversion.

Really, the whole thing comes down to the fact that O3R is a niche, which could have converted to DCC long ago, but didn’t do this for commercial reasons revolving around the competition between a handful of manufacturers (really, Lionel v MTH).

Hello Scott Bulldog. I was in your shoes when I started building my layout with my son in 2012 (he’s now a college freshman and the layout is still years away from being completed....). Based on my experience, I’ll take a slightly different approach than the answers you’ve been given so far. To me, it’s first a matter of what SCALE you want collect and operate. You mentioned having a bunch of postwar stuff, which is awesome. If you plan to largely round it out with newer stuff of the same scale, then I would forego a dedicated control system and use the Bluetooth app or Lionchief remotes and buy Lionchief engines which are made in postwar “semi-scale”.  There have been lots of them made and the list grows every catalog.

However, if you want to go full scale, then a control system makes a lot more sense.  At that point, Legacy is a good option because it’s fairly inexpensive, very easy to setup, controls Lionel engines all the way back to TMCC, and, as others have said, makes more sense than the alternative given the demise of MTH.

My $0.02.

If I was starting fresh today I would do two big things.

1.  - Only use onboard battery R/C for power & control.

2.  - Only buy a limited amount of essential locomotives and post photos of other engines I like on my wall.

Excuse me... gotta run........there is a monster in the basement...and it needs feeding!!

My problem with blue rail is it requires an iOS device. I own Android, so can not use blue rail. Lionel bluetooth app also only runs on iOS, so that is out also. I have DCS and TMCC, which work just fine for me.

@Darrell posted:

My problem with blue rail is it requires an iOS device. I own Android, so can not use blue rail. Lionel bluetooth app also only runs on iOS, so that is out also. I have DCS and TMCC, which work just fine for me.

On the positive side, your iPhone would not require cellular service.  So you could pickup and inexpensive iphone 6S plus for around $75.  Sometimes less.

Now you have a dedicated device for trains and do not have to use your everyday phone.

Have Fun

Ron

I have a perfectly good smart phone, why buy another? I have the DCS wifi and still grab the remote 99% of the time. Bluetooth may be great for you, but doesn't fit into my life. Maybe I'll look at it later if they make Android apps, but until then it's a non-starter.

@Darrell posted:

I have a perfectly good smart phone, why buy another? I have the DCS wifi and still grab the remote 99% of the time. Bluetooth may be great for you, but doesn't fit into my life. Maybe I'll look at it later if they make Android apps, but until then it's a non-starter.

You have DCS and Legacy.  The OP does not and is looking for help.

I merely pointed out a person can buy a cheap iphone that is train dedicated if they want to.

I have DCS and Legacy too.  They all have their plusses and minuses.

Have fun!

Ron

@bulldog405 posted:

,,,,,,,,, Just joining the hobby (post war Lionel passed down from my Grandfather),..........

Will also tell you i have fond memories of running my Grandfathers train what I now know to be a ZW.  *Nothing quite like those lighted jewels!  Amazing what you remember from childhood.

1.  I may have missed it, but none of the posts above seems to have mentioned that you will need to internally add the appropriate electronics, with the cost involved equal to a good new locomotive, to your Grandfather's trains [ locomotives ], no matter which of the 'control systems you use.  Do you really want to do that, even aside from the monetary standpoint ?

2.  Since you have great memories, why not return to them.  Get a good reconditioned postwar ZW which will operate virtually anything on three rails, and start having fun without the inevitable electronics hassle.

SZ

The concern about using a phone to control your trains is understood, but I have found that using an iPad for train control is actually more convenient because of the larger screen size.