"F" on 44 Ton and other similar center cabs

I think some RRs did this as a safety measure.    I think the idea was for everyone on the crew to know which way was the front to avoid confusion.    That way when a brakeman said pull ahead (or backup) he and the engineer and anyone else on the crew,  knew which direction they were talking about.  

The "F" designation is an FRA requirement.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

The "F" designation is an FRA requirement.

Rusty

Correct, plus it goes way back even prior to the FRA, i.e. back to the "ICC era". In other words, the "F" designation is a federal law for all locomotives other than steam.

So I get the rule.  But couldn't it be confusing to someone in the yard who is in the vicinity but can't see that little F on the front?  If you hear three horn blasts, do you really know what direction that thing will be moving?

Ron

@Ron045 posted:

So I get the rule.  But couldn't it be confusing to someone in the yard who is in the vicinity but can't see that little F on the front?  If you hear three horn blasts, do you really know what direction that thing will be moving?

Ron

If you are one of the switch crew members, you had darn well better know which way it is moving!!!!

@Hot Water posted:

If you are one of the switch crew members, you had darn well better know which way it is moving!!!!

And if you are not?

@Ron045 posted:

And if you are not?

Then your railroad career would probably be short-lived.

Rusty

So if everyone on the ground is supposed to be aware of the direction and which way the train is headed then what is the purpose of two vs three blasts?   Isn't that for people in the area who may not be on the train crew to be warned which way the train will be moving?

You're standing near a stopped locomotive.

Its horn blows.

It's not going to move sideways. Explain the concern.

The "F" is only so that maintenance people or other concerned souls know which way is considered "the Front", it's not necessarily the way they normally operate them.  Just an example, an A-A tail-to-tail MU, both of them will have the "F" on the nose.  However, they won't both be operating in the direction of the "F" for going forward.  Ditto for any B-unit.

Actually the "F" is involved in train/loco movements, indicating which end is the front (going back to before diesels, with electric engines by the way).

Engines in yards generally don't blow their horn every time the engine moves. It's more commonly a train that's come to stop and now is restarting. Plus, if you were part of a crew doing yard switching, you'd be signaling back and forth with the engine crew, so you'd be telling them when to move.

In any case as noted, if you were in a rail yard and heard two or three blasts of a train horn or whistle, your first reaction should be to look around for an engine or train beginning to move.

When the electric locomotives start coming out in about 1910 the ICC inspectors could not figure out which was the front. So the ICC came up with a regulation that required the railroads designate one end as the front and mark it with a “F”.   It does not matter which end of the loco it is, as one end is marked with a “F”. I am not aware that any railroad uses the “F” designation for anything. It is there for the benefit of confused federal inspectors.

@David Johnston posted:

I am not aware that any railroad uses the “F” designation for anything. It is there for the benefit of confused federal inspectors.

I'm guessing it didn't help end their confusion!

The most important thing is that the crew knows which way is "ahead" or "back".  Engines are turned around or substituted all the time so when shoving into a siding they may want to use the directions that they use at that location on a regular basis. They should determine this at the morning safety briefing and then stick to it all day.   I preferred using "east" or "west"  (or north, south for others) in our operations as that never changes.  This leaves no doubt for any qualified crew member. 

Knowing the front of the engine was more important when hand signals and lanterns were used. Radios have made the “F” a less important factor in the movement of trains.

Like Conductor Earl said, an understanding is arrived at by the crew involved when they perform their job briefing. Again, the East or West command is way more common than back up or forward when using radios…

For freight cars (and engines) , the AEI tags (two) located on each end are actually programmed specific to the position (front and rear)so the direction ( front or rear)  can be known when reading the tag as it passes by an AEI reader.  Often times you have bearing detectors (or other types of detectors) in combination with the aei reader, and the data can be capture to understand the orientation in the train for issues with a specific axle and side of the equipment.

If the front is not designated, how would you know which end when programming the AEI tags, or when getting reports on equipment referencing the unit from the AEI tags, from which end….

These designations keep the different support groups on the same page when referencing a piece of railroad equipment.

"I'm guessing it didn't help end their confusion! "

LOL

APB

More than that, knowing the designated front of a locomotive (or some passenger cars that also wore the "F" to indicate their front end for train makeup, and the "A' end of freight cars which is their front end) also helps to identify which is the right or left side of the unit in question.  From this, the unit or car in question and with all journals in the trucks numbered front to rear and right to left accordingly, a location can be identified and reported for maintenance work.   In addition, every truck bolster on each car carries that car's reporting marks and number in addition to numbering of the journals.  That is important when unscrambling parts of a wreck and helps to determine what parts may have failed to cause it to happen.

I would think an “F” would be more helpful on a centercab locomotive. It’s really obvious which end is the front of a low-nose road unit. It would be the end with the cab. If a 44 tonner didn’t have the “F” you would have to climb up and look in the cab to see which side the controls are on to tell which end is the front…

I volunteer with a group in Cleveland and we primarily give directions as forward or back relative to our long hood forward RS-3.  The engineer that trained us as brakemen would often give quick responses to directions to move in the wrong direction (while staying safe of course).  Needless to say, it only took once or twice for that to happen to you before you started paying careful attention to what direction the engine was pointed.

When the engineer is on the right side of the locomotive when facing the direction of movement, the locomotive is moving forward. That is the real determining factor about which way is "forward." If he turns around to face the other way and moves in the opposite direction, he is now on the left side of the locomotive when facing the direction of movement. That is "reverse."

When working the ground in switching situations today, most commands are given by radio as opposed to hand signals. If you say "8713, take 'em ahead." the engineer is going to move the locomotive in the direction where he is on the right side of the locomotive while facing the movement direction, regardless of where the little "F" might be. Nobody pays any attention to the "F" these days anyway.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Nobody pays any attention to the "F" these days anyway.

My understanding was it might be used to describe the location on the engine to maintenance folks, but that's about it.

In North America, except for the relatively rare diesel with dual-controls, the engineer sits on the right hand side, looking forward, with the controls in front of them. So when making up a train, it's desirable for the engine (or lead locomotive in a consist of engines) to be facing forward. With early road-switchers like EMD's GP7 or GP9, about half of the railroads considered the long hood the front, and half the short hood. Plus quite a few railroads ran GP7s short-hood forward, but ran other engines (like Alco RS-3s) long hood forward. Having the front clearly designated on each engine would help with that.

Around the 24 minute mark, there's a quick pan of the inside of a 44 tonner.  With only one control stand there is definitely a "front" to the locomotive regardless of the center cab location.

Rusty

@Rich Melvin posted:

When the engineer is on the right side of the locomotive when facing the direction of movement, the locomotive is moving forward. That is the real determining factor about which way is "forward." If he turns around to face the other way and moves in the opposite direction, he is now on the left side of the locomotive when facing the direction of movement. That is "reverse."

When working the ground in switching situations today, most commands are given by radio as opposed to hand signals. If you say "8713, take 'em ahead." the engineer is going to move the locomotive in the direction where he is on the right side of the locomotive while facing the movement direction, regardless of where the little "F" might be. Nobody pays any attention to the "F" these days anyway.

Ahhh . . sanity.  Thank you, Rich.

By the way, in the zebra stripe era on Santa Fe, the front stripes were painted in a chevron pattern, pointing upwards, while the rear stripes were painted in a chevron pointing downward.

@wjstix posted:

...So when making up a train, it's desirable for the engine (or lead locomotive in a consist of engines) to be facing forward...

Not necessarily. It depends on the situation. And again, what is the definition of "forward?"

I once worked a yard that was built on a long, gentle curve. From the end where we worked this yard, it was a right-hand curve when looking into the yard. This was back in the era of  hand signals, so I had to be able to see the guys on the ground. If I had a locomotive facing forward into the curve, the operating controls were on the INSIDE of the curve. In that situation, we had an easy day. I could always see the guys on the ground just sitting normally in the seat. In this situation, "forward" was when I was shoving cars into the track, and "reverse" was when I was pulling the cars out of the track.

On the other hand, if I had a locomotive turned so the controls were on the side towards the OUTSIDE of the curve, we had a long, difficult day. I would have to sit sideways in the seat in order to look back for the signals. The guys on the ground had to constantly re-position themselves far away from the track to get into a position to signal me, then go back in close to the cars to pull a pin, connect an air hose, or do whatever they had to do. In this situation, "forward" was when I was pulling the cars out of the track, and "reverse" was when I was shoving cars into the track.

It was a royal pain to work that yard with an engine turned the wrong way.

I only have run a diesel engine once, but as I recall, it had a lever/switch with forward/neutral/reverse. The direction you move when it's in forward is the front of the engine, and would indicate where the "F" would be placed. External shape of the locomotive doesn't matter.

Here is how dumb I am.

I thought the F was just something that was added by the maker to little model diesel engine, so that when you used it, you would know which end went first.  Never dawned on me that they had that on real diesels.  :-O

the simple answer is the conductor or brakeman on the ground need to know a witch way the locomotive is facing so he can give hand or radio instructions. Take it ahead or back up. Adding to the confusion among non railroaders are a bunch of not so obvious things .Whistle or horn signals were conformation from the engineer that he saw your hand or lantern signal ( almost never used today) as the engineer confirms your instruction on the radio. I worked on the railroad most of my adult life and we had center cab , long and short hood forward engines so it was very important to know which end Had the F on it ( part of what you noted when starting the job each day). one of our units was a dual control stand unit for a brief time and the long hood was still designated F, any other person working the area that was not part of your crew would not give any instruction to your engineer except stop in an emergency , to become part of the crew he would have to be briefed first by the conductor in charge. I was a railfan and modler first and thought I had a good grasp of it before I hired on , it turned out not to be true but I learned something new about the complexities of operating and being safe almost every day of my career.

@Conductor Earl posted:

The most important thing is that the crew knows which way is "ahead" or "back".  Engines are turned around or substituted all the time so when shoving into a siding they may want to use the directions that they use at that location on a regular basis. They should determine this at the morning safety briefing and then stick to it all day.   I preferred using "east" or "west"  (or north, south for others) in our operations as that never changes.  This leaves no doubt for any qualified crew member.

Exactly .

Way too many incidents occurs when trainman and enginemen forget which way is ahead and forward like you mentioned .

I've on occasion just told a trainman to use east/west or north/south when they were having issues with remembering .

I've always thought the "F" was mandated by the FRA as a simple way of all crafts that mattered T&E and Mechanical to understand what was end was designated as the right side control of the locomotive . And someone one time mentioned to me that was a decision made because here in North America of the way we generally have our signals oriented on the right side of the tracks .

Any idea in say England , where I've seen their cabs set up for running on the left side , that  they designate one end or the other with an "F" ?       

Looking at photos of British locomotives, I haven't seen any conspicuous markings for front.

However, it appears the Europeans use "1" and "2" designations with "1" being the "front."

Rusty

At Barstow, California, after the "new" yard opened in the early 1970's, the tracks were longer than in the old yard.  The railroad, wanting their then-modern yard to look completely modern, issued a hand-held radio to every Switchman.  That, along with the length of the tracks, eliminated most of the use of hand and lantern signals for switching movements.  The Switchmen, often not being able to see the engine, started using "take 'em East," or "Take 'em West" instead of "A-head" or "Back 'em up."

I never liked it, but had to concede that it was a safe practice and it avoided mistakenly starting a long, heavy, track of cars in the wrong direction and not being able to stop and reverse direction before fouling the lead track, running through a switch not properly aligned, or shoving into the side of another train or yard movement.

Eons ago (before the FRA/RR's became more restrictive in radio use), we used generic "pull/shove" to denote direction. Worked great until you had cars both side of the engine(s), then you had to go back to "forward/back" or "east/west" "north/south".

If you're sitting in the cab and you've got a hold of a cut, it's pretty obvious what "shove" or "pull" will mean, as in: "Shove 'em to me, 'bout 7 to a joint".

Of course, if there's more than one job working the same radio frequency, I.D. would be needed:

"Okay 50 (i.e. engine #)... shove 'em to me, 'bout 7 to a joint".

Oddly, common sense was quite common then.

Andre

I don't think the "F" has anything to do with signals or maintenance workers. It has more to do with movement of the engine.

@wjstix posted:

I don't think the "F" has anything to do with signals or maintenance workers. It has more to do with movement of the engine.

Yes, THAT is why the "F" was, and still is, required by Federal Law!